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Can Ricky Jean-Francois be the GOAT @ lineman?

  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 31,661
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I wouldn't really look at Jean-Francois as a 7th rounder since he was basically projected as a 2nd to 4th round pick before the draft. He pretty much dropped due to his 12 month suspension, attitude and groin injury.

Which makes him a 7th rounder

You see your looking at it as its written, but not understanding the big picture. Of course hes a 7th rounder, thanks Dr. Obvious, but for his play on the field and potential, he was projected around a 2nd-4th round pick. Which is why I said I wouldn't really look at him as a 7th round pick. Different atmosphere, coaching, teammates, mindset, who knows maybe his play will finally live up to the potential people once saw in him.

I don't buy that "he's really 3rd round talent" arguement at all. It's the same thing as saying Crabtree should be paid as much or more than Heyward-Bey, because he "should" or "could" have been drafted first.

Where you are drafted is where you are drafted. Regardless of what the reason might be as to why you were drafted lower than perhaps you or others expected.

Off the field, mental, work ethic and those types of issues are as real as concerns about height/weight/speed/talent or any other reason someone falls in the draft.

And while, of course, there are always some players who perform better than expected based on their draft spot. Most 7th rounders and UDFAs do not produce in the NFL and many never make it past the practice squad.

So, expecting anything more from RJF than you would from any other 7th rounder, because at one point he might have been viewed as being drafted earlier, is just fooling yourself with wing and a prayer optimism.

It is highly unlikely that EVERY team in the NFL, including us, was so off in their assesment of this player, that he should be viewed as "mid round talent".

Sure, we all hope he's the DE version of Tom Brady or Marques Colston, but until/unless he starts showing it one the field, there shouldn't be any expectation for more than hopefully landing a roster spot.

What's wrong with looking at a player from that point of view?? All its saying is that the kid has some kind of talent but dropped due to a few cases of injury and questionable character. Which have nothing to do with the way he performs on the field. Example, after his suspension, he came back for the National BCS game vs. Ohio St. and was named Most Outstanding Player. I'm looking at it as if he gets his head straight and is in the right mindset, than maybe he could turn out to be a steal for us. I in no way am thinking he will turn out to be a HOF'er for us, but overall optimistic of his play on the field.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I wouldn't really look at Jean-Francois as a 7th rounder since he was basically projected as a 2nd to 4th round pick before the draft. He pretty much dropped due to his 12 month suspension, attitude and groin injury.

Which makes him a 7th rounder

You see your looking at it as its written, but not understanding the big picture. Of course hes a 7th rounder, thanks Dr. Obvious, but for his play on the field and potential, he was projected around a 2nd-4th round pick. Which is why I said I wouldn't really look at him as a 7th round pick. Different atmosphere, coaching, teammates, mindset, who knows maybe his play will finally live up to the potential people once saw in him.

I don't buy that "he's really 3rd round talent" arguement at all. It's the same thing as saying Crabtree should be paid as much or more than Heyward-Bey, because he "should" or "could" have been drafted first.

Where you are drafted is where you are drafted. Regardless of what the reason might be as to why you were drafted lower than perhaps you or others expected.

Off the field, mental, work ethic and those types of issues are as real as concerns about height/weight/speed/talent or any other reason someone falls in the draft.

And while, of course, there are always some players who perform better than expected based on their draft spot. Most 7th rounders and UDFAs do not produce in the NFL and many never make it past the practice squad.

So, expecting anything more from RJF than you would from any other 7th rounder, because at one point he might have been viewed as being drafted earlier, is just fooling yourself with wing and a prayer optimism.

It is highly unlikely that EVERY team in the NFL, including us, was so off in their assesment of this player, that he should be viewed as "mid round talent".

Sure, we all hope he's the DE version of Tom Brady or Marques Colston, but until/unless he starts showing it one the field, there shouldn't be any expectation for more than hopefully landing a roster spot.

What's wrong with looking at a player from that point of view?? All its saying is that the kid has some kind of talent but dropped due to a few cases of injury and questionable character. Which have nothing to do with the way he performs on the field. Example, after his suspension, he came back for the National BCS game vs. Ohio St. and was named Most Outstanding Player. I'm looking at it as if he gets his head straight and is in the right mindset, than maybe he could turn out to be a steal for us. I in no way am thinking he will turn out to be a HOF'er for us, but overall optimistic of his play on the field.

What I'm saying is that people fall for a reason. And none of those reasons can be discounted, regardless of if they are physical, mental or other.

It only takes one team to be enamoured with a guy and make him a much higher pick than maybe he otherwise should be.

However, it takes EVERY team in the NFL repeatedly passing on a guy for him to end up as a late rounder. So, regardless of WHY he wasn't taken until then, or if at some point he might have been viewed as a higher pick, he ended up being a late round pick or UDFA for a reason.

With the amount of time, money, effort and personnel that go into researching and vetting these players, I am far more inclined to believe that when 32 teams and their scounting departments pass on a guy for 5+ rounds or more, that they are going to be right about that far more often than they will be wrong.

They are the ones who make a career out of making these decisions, and they are the ones who have watched all the film, interviewed the kid, his family and coaches/teammates if necessary.

So, us fans regarding a guy as a "mid round" talent, when he wasn't, because we like the player, or because we feel he can "turn it around" or be successful in spite of whatever made the pros pass on him, is to me, fool's gold.

Not that there won't ever be late round guys who produce at a high level. But betting on a guy like RJF, when no team in the NFL thought he was worth even a 6th rounder, tells me a lot more than his play in the few games where he looked good or his draft rating earlier in the year.

Again, I'd love for him to be the Tom Brady of DEs and become a stud. But at this point, I'll just be happy if he wins a roster spot. Then we can worry about anything above and beyond that. Which is generally all you can/should expect out of a 7th rounder or UDFA.
This all got me thinking. Historically, it would be interesting to see what type of player drafted in the later rounds succeeds most often. The guy that was lightly regarded coming into the league and drafted in the later rounds, but works his butt off to become a All-Pro (ala Tom Brady, Priest Holmes and Marques Colston) or the guy that appears to have all the talent in the world but drops to the later rounds because of one reason or another, be it a reputation for having a poor attitude, prior injuries or a history of displaying a lack of effort. I don’t know maybe this type of player often has the preverbal light switch turned on and goes on to meet or exceed their potential. I’d guess that the “poor attitude, lack of effort” guy fails more times than not. Like someone already said, guys usually drop for a reason. What do you guys think?

I don’t really know the full story on Jean-Francois and I know coach Sing is a master motivator, but it makes me wonder. We hear so often on the board that coach Singletary will motivate this player or that player, but the man only has so much time in the day. I can’t imagine that he’ll be able to devote as much time as people think motivating guys on an individual level.
Originally posted by BMore9ersfan:
This all got me thinking. Historically, it would be interesting to see what type of player drafted in the later rounds succeeds most often. The guy that was lightly regarded coming into the league and drafted in the later rounds, but works his butt off to become a All-Pro (ala Tom Brady, Priest Holmes and Marques Colston) or the guy that appears to have all the talent in the world but drops to the later rounds because of one reason or another, be it a reputation for having a poor attitude, prior injuries or a history of displaying a lack of effort. I don’t know maybe this type of player often has the preverbal light switch turned on and goes on to meet or exceed their potential. I’d guess that the “poor attitude, lack of effort” guy fails more times than not. Like someone already said, guys usually drop for a reason. What do you guys think?

I don’t really know the full story on Jean-Francois and I know coach Sing is a master motivator, but it makes me wonder. We hear so often on the board that coach Singletary will motivate this player or that player, but the man only has so much time in the day. I can’t imagine that he’ll be able to devote as much time as people think motivating guys on an individual level.

I don't know for sure, but I think the late rounders who succeed the most, are of a different category: Positions that don't warrant high picks.

FBs, TEs, Gs (until recently). Those are positions where even the some of the best players in the draft at that position can still be late rounders, especially if there aren't any "super studs", or more than one or two, at that position.

For example, this year only two TEs where taken before round 3 and a dozen or so were taken from round 5-7.

But between "low talent/hard work" or "high talent/bad habit" players, I would bet the guys with the good work ethic succeed at a much higher rate. Especially when it comes to at least sticking with an NFL team as backups or special teamers at bare minimum. Even if a few more "bad habit" guys end up having higher ceilings for the ones that put things together, I'd bet a much higher percentage never play much or at all in the NFL.
  • Envy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,382
Originally posted by global_nomad:
Check this quote out:

To be the best you have to win game and that's why I play this game. I wanna be remember(ed) as the greatest lineman that walk into the NFL

http://twitter.com/Freakyjean

I like the confidence from the 7th round pick. With McDonald on the rocks for a while I think he will have a chance to show what he has as a rookie. But as Balmer, (even Mario Williams) have proven its hard to adjust to the NFL in your rookie season on the D-Line.

"Don't tell me. Show me" - Singeltary
did anyone else read that quote in your head doing the voice of rocky?

Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by BMore9ersfan:
This all got me thinking. Historically, it would be interesting to see what type of player drafted in the later rounds succeeds most often. The guy that was lightly regarded coming into the league and drafted in the later rounds, but works his butt off to become a All-Pro (ala Tom Brady, Priest Holmes and Marques Colston) or the guy that appears to have all the talent in the world but drops to the later rounds because of one reason or another, be it a reputation for having a poor attitude, prior injuries or a history of displaying a lack of effort. I don’t know maybe this type of player often has the preverbal light switch turned on and goes on to meet or exceed their potential. I’d guess that the “poor attitude, lack of effort” guy fails more times than not. Like someone already said, guys usually drop for a reason. What do you guys think?

I don’t really know the full story on Jean-Francois and I know coach Sing is a master motivator, but it makes me wonder. We hear so often on the board that coach Singletary will motivate this player or that player, but the man only has so much time in the day. I can’t imagine that he’ll be able to devote as much time as people think motivating guys on an individual level.

I don't know for sure, but I think the late rounders who succeed the most, are of a different category: Positions that don't warrant high picks.

FBs, TEs, Gs (until recently). Those are positions where even the some of the best players in the draft at that position can still be late rounders, especially if there aren't any "super studs", or more than one or two, at that position.

For example, this year only two TEs where taken before round 3 and a dozen or so were taken from round 5-7.

But between "low talent/hard work" or "high talent/bad habit" players, I would bet the guys with the good work ethic succeed at a much higher rate. Especially when it comes to at least sticking with an NFL team as backups or special teamers at bare minimum. Even if a few more "bad habit" guys end up having higher ceilings for the ones that put things together, I'd bet a much higher percentage never play much or at all in the NFL.

He is from FL so his success chance is higher than people coming from other states
  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 31,661
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I wouldn't really look at Jean-Francois as a 7th rounder since he was basically projected as a 2nd to 4th round pick before the draft. He pretty much dropped due to his 12 month suspension, attitude and groin injury.

Which makes him a 7th rounder

You see your looking at it as its written, but not understanding the big picture. Of course hes a 7th rounder, thanks Dr. Obvious, but for his play on the field and potential, he was projected around a 2nd-4th round pick. Which is why I said I wouldn't really look at him as a 7th round pick. Different atmosphere, coaching, teammates, mindset, who knows maybe his play will finally live up to the potential people once saw in him.

I don't buy that "he's really 3rd round talent" arguement at all. It's the same thing as saying Crabtree should be paid as much or more than Heyward-Bey, because he "should" or "could" have been drafted first.

Where you are drafted is where you are drafted. Regardless of what the reason might be as to why you were drafted lower than perhaps you or others expected.

Off the field, mental, work ethic and those types of issues are as real as concerns about height/weight/speed/talent or any other reason someone falls in the draft.

And while, of course, there are always some players who perform better than expected based on their draft spot. Most 7th rounders and UDFAs do not produce in the NFL and many never make it past the practice squad.

So, expecting anything more from RJF than you would from any other 7th rounder, because at one point he might have been viewed as being drafted earlier, is just fooling yourself with wing and a prayer optimism.

It is highly unlikely that EVERY team in the NFL, including us, was so off in their assesment of this player, that he should be viewed as "mid round talent".

Sure, we all hope he's the DE version of Tom Brady or Marques Colston, but until/unless he starts showing it one the field, there shouldn't be any expectation for more than hopefully landing a roster spot.

What's wrong with looking at a player from that point of view?? All its saying is that the kid has some kind of talent but dropped due to a few cases of injury and questionable character. Which have nothing to do with the way he performs on the field. Example, after his suspension, he came back for the National BCS game vs. Ohio St. and was named Most Outstanding Player. I'm looking at it as if he gets his head straight and is in the right mindset, than maybe he could turn out to be a steal for us. I in no way am thinking he will turn out to be a HOF'er for us, but overall optimistic of his play on the field.

What I'm saying is that people fall for a reason. And none of those reasons can be discounted, regardless of if they are physical, mental or other.

It only takes one team to be enamoured with a guy and make him a much higher pick than maybe he otherwise should be.

However, it takes EVERY team in the NFL repeatedly passing on a guy for him to end up as a late rounder. So, regardless of WHY he wasn't taken until then, or if at some point he might have been viewed as a higher pick, he ended up being a late round pick or UDFA for a reason.

With the amount of time, money, effort and personnel that go into researching and vetting these players, I am far more inclined to believe that when 32 teams and their scounting departments pass on a guy for 5+ rounds or more, that they are going to be right about that far more often than they will be wrong.

They are the ones who make a career out of making these decisions, and they are the ones who have watched all the film, interviewed the kid, his family and coaches/teammates if necessary.

So, us fans regarding a guy as a "mid round" talent, when he wasn't, because we like the player, or because we feel he can "turn it around" or be successful in spite of whatever made the pros pass on him, is to me, fool's gold.

Not that there won't ever be late round guys who produce at a high level. But betting on a guy like RJF, when no team in the NFL thought he was worth even a 6th rounder, tells me a lot more than his play in the few games where he looked good or his draft rating earlier in the year.

Again, I'd love for him to be the Tom Brady of DEs and become a stud. But at this point, I'll just be happy if he wins a roster spot. Then we can worry about anything above and beyond that. Which is generally all you can/should expect out of a 7th rounder or UDFA.

Try telling that to Jay Ferguson, Jay Ratliff, John Randle, La'Roi Glover and Adalius Thomas to name a few. So should we think that a players talent level is more than it was only when he has exceeded expectations of being a late round draft pick?? Don't know why you're making a big deal out of this, people, fans, media coaches talk about players like this all time. Like I said its just another way of looking at a player, in other words, its another opinion.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I wouldn't really look at Jean-Francois as a 7th rounder since he was basically projected as a 2nd to 4th round pick before the draft. He pretty much dropped due to his 12 month suspension, attitude and groin injury.

Which makes him a 7th rounder

You see your looking at it as its written, but not understanding the big picture. Of course hes a 7th rounder, thanks Dr. Obvious, but for his play on the field and potential, he was projected around a 2nd-4th round pick. Which is why I said I wouldn't really look at him as a 7th round pick. Different atmosphere, coaching, teammates, mindset, who knows maybe his play will finally live up to the potential people once saw in him.

I don't buy that "he's really 3rd round talent" arguement at all. It's the same thing as saying Crabtree should be paid as much or more than Heyward-Bey, because he "should" or "could" have been drafted first.

Where you are drafted is where you are drafted. Regardless of what the reason might be as to why you were drafted lower than perhaps you or others expected.

Off the field, mental, work ethic and those types of issues are as real as concerns about height/weight/speed/talent or any other reason someone falls in the draft.

And while, of course, there are always some players who perform better than expected based on their draft spot. Most 7th rounders and UDFAs do not produce in the NFL and many never make it past the practice squad.

So, expecting anything more from RJF than you would from any other 7th rounder, because at one point he might have been viewed as being drafted earlier, is just fooling yourself with wing and a prayer optimism.

It is highly unlikely that EVERY team in the NFL, including us, was so off in their assesment of this player, that he should be viewed as "mid round talent".

Sure, we all hope he's the DE version of Tom Brady or Marques Colston, but until/unless he starts showing it one the field, there shouldn't be any expectation for more than hopefully landing a roster spot.

What's wrong with looking at a player from that point of view?? All its saying is that the kid has some kind of talent but dropped due to a few cases of injury and questionable character. Which have nothing to do with the way he performs on the field. Example, after his suspension, he came back for the National BCS game vs. Ohio St. and was named Most Outstanding Player. I'm looking at it as if he gets his head straight and is in the right mindset, than maybe he could turn out to be a steal for us. I in no way am thinking he will turn out to be a HOF'er for us, but overall optimistic of his play on the field.

What I'm saying is that people fall for a reason. And none of those reasons can be discounted, regardless of if they are physical, mental or other.

It only takes one team to be enamoured with a guy and make him a much higher pick than maybe he otherwise should be.

However, it takes EVERY team in the NFL repeatedly passing on a guy for him to end up as a late rounder. So, regardless of WHY he wasn't taken until then, or if at some point he might have been viewed as a higher pick, he ended up being a late round pick or UDFA for a reason.

With the amount of time, money, effort and personnel that go into researching and vetting these players, I am far more inclined to believe that when 32 teams and their scounting departments pass on a guy for 5+ rounds or more, that they are going to be right about that far more often than they will be wrong.

They are the ones who make a career out of making these decisions, and they are the ones who have watched all the film, interviewed the kid, his family and coaches/teammates if necessary.

So, us fans regarding a guy as a "mid round" talent, when he wasn't, because we like the player, or because we feel he can "turn it around" or be successful in spite of whatever made the pros pass on him, is to me, fool's gold.

Not that there won't ever be late round guys who produce at a high level. But betting on a guy like RJF, when no team in the NFL thought he was worth even a 6th rounder, tells me a lot more than his play in the few games where he looked good or his draft rating earlier in the year.

Again, I'd love for him to be the Tom Brady of DEs and become a stud. But at this point, I'll just be happy if he wins a roster spot. Then we can worry about anything above and beyond that. Which is generally all you can/should expect out of a 7th rounder or UDFA.

Try telling that to Jay Ferguson, Jay Ratliff, John Randle, La'Roi Glover and Adalius Thomas to name a few. So should we think that a players talent level is more than it was only when he has exceeded expectations of being a late round draft pick?? Don't know why you're making a big deal out of this, people, fans, media coaches talk about players like this all time. Like I said its just another way of looking at a player, in other words, its another opinion.

I am not big into stats by no means when it comes to player on the field. But it would be interesting to see how many stars erupt from the lower rounds vs top round talent. It just seems to me that there are so many stars in the later rounds vs the top rounds of the draft no matter what position it is
Freaky Ricky!
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I wouldn't really look at Jean-Francois as a 7th rounder since he was basically projected as a 2nd to 4th round pick before the draft. He pretty much dropped due to his 12 month suspension, attitude and groin injury.

Which makes him a 7th rounder

You see your looking at it as its written, but not understanding the big picture. Of course hes a 7th rounder, thanks Dr. Obvious, but for his play on the field and potential, he was projected around a 2nd-4th round pick. Which is why I said I wouldn't really look at him as a 7th round pick. Different atmosphere, coaching, teammates, mindset, who knows maybe his play will finally live up to the potential people once saw in him.

I don't buy that "he's really 3rd round talent" arguement at all. It's the same thing as saying Crabtree should be paid as much or more than Heyward-Bey, because he "should" or "could" have been drafted first.

Where you are drafted is where you are drafted. Regardless of what the reason might be as to why you were drafted lower than perhaps you or others expected.

Off the field, mental, work ethic and those types of issues are as real as concerns about height/weight/speed/talent or any other reason someone falls in the draft.

And while, of course, there are always some players who perform better than expected based on their draft spot. Most 7th rounders and UDFAs do not produce in the NFL and many never make it past the practice squad.

So, expecting anything more from RJF than you would from any other 7th rounder, because at one point he might have been viewed as being drafted earlier, is just fooling yourself with wing and a prayer optimism.

It is highly unlikely that EVERY team in the NFL, including us, was so off in their assesment of this player, that he should be viewed as "mid round talent".

Sure, we all hope he's the DE version of Tom Brady or Marques Colston, but until/unless he starts showing it one the field, there shouldn't be any expectation for more than hopefully landing a roster spot.

What's wrong with looking at a player from that point of view?? All its saying is that the kid has some kind of talent but dropped due to a few cases of injury and questionable character. Which have nothing to do with the way he performs on the field. Example, after his suspension, he came back for the National BCS game vs. Ohio St. and was named Most Outstanding Player. I'm looking at it as if he gets his head straight and is in the right mindset, than maybe he could turn out to be a steal for us. I in no way am thinking he will turn out to be a HOF'er for us, but overall optimistic of his play on the field.

What I'm saying is that people fall for a reason. And none of those reasons can be discounted, regardless of if they are physical, mental or other.

It only takes one team to be enamoured with a guy and make him a much higher pick than maybe he otherwise should be.

However, it takes EVERY team in the NFL repeatedly passing on a guy for him to end up as a late rounder. So, regardless of WHY he wasn't taken until then, or if at some point he might have been viewed as a higher pick, he ended up being a late round pick or UDFA for a reason.

With the amount of time, money, effort and personnel that go into researching and vetting these players, I am far more inclined to believe that when 32 teams and their scounting departments pass on a guy for 5+ rounds or more, that they are going to be right about that far more often than they will be wrong.

They are the ones who make a career out of making these decisions, and they are the ones who have watched all the film, interviewed the kid, his family and coaches/teammates if necessary.

So, us fans regarding a guy as a "mid round" talent, when he wasn't, because we like the player, or because we feel he can "turn it around" or be successful in spite of whatever made the pros pass on him, is to me, fool's gold.

Not that there won't ever be late round guys who produce at a high level. But betting on a guy like RJF, when no team in the NFL thought he was worth even a 6th rounder, tells me a lot more than his play in the few games where he looked good or his draft rating earlier in the year.

Again, I'd love for him to be the Tom Brady of DEs and become a stud. But at this point, I'll just be happy if he wins a roster spot. Then we can worry about anything above and beyond that. Which is generally all you can/should expect out of a 7th rounder or UDFA.

Try telling that to Jay Ferguson, Jay Ratliff, John Randle, La'Roi Glover and Adalius Thomas to name a few. So should we think that a players talent level is more than it was only when he has exceeded expectations of being a late round draft pick?? Don't know why you're making a big deal out of this, people, fans, media coaches talk about players like this all time. Like I said its just another way of looking at a player, in other words, its another opinion.

It's not a big deal, but my opinion, about this opinion, is that it is a case where the exceptions prove the rule. Sure, there are a handful of guys who might have been considered "mid round values" who fell and then performed like first day talents even though they were late picks, but they are far more rare than common.

So, IMO, when honestly assessing the talent added to a team, you are fooling yourself if you view someone you took in the 7th round or as an UDFA as an equal value to a "legit" mid rounder. A 2nd-4th round draft pick, you can (usually) expect to at least be a lock to make the team and often (depending on position) you expect them to have at least some playing time and impact on the team in their first year.

7th rounders and UDFAs, as a rule, are lucky to have a roster spot. And the only reason it really matters, is that, as a fan (or even as management), if you fool yourself into thinking that you have the equivelent of multiple mid round picks, when really you just have a couple, plus several 7th rounders and UDFAs, you are likley to be very disappointed when most of those guys don't end up helping your team.

And I think that is a situation we may find ourselves in this year. I don't know what the team management/ownership REALLY thinks, but I know many, many fans seem to think that some of our major issues as a team will be solved, in large part, due to some of these late picks and UDFAs.

I just think that is a pipe dream. At best, maybe one of them performs above normal expectations for someone drafted at that position, but to think that key roles on our team can be solved with basically draft "leftovers" is dangeroursly optomistic.
  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 31,661
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I wouldn't really look at Jean-Francois as a 7th rounder since he was basically projected as a 2nd to 4th round pick before the draft. He pretty much dropped due to his 12 month suspension, attitude and groin injury.

Which makes him a 7th rounder

You see your looking at it as its written, but not understanding the big picture. Of course hes a 7th rounder, thanks Dr. Obvious, but for his play on the field and potential, he was projected around a 2nd-4th round pick. Which is why I said I wouldn't really look at him as a 7th round pick. Different atmosphere, coaching, teammates, mindset, who knows maybe his play will finally live up to the potential people once saw in him.

I don't buy that "he's really 3rd round talent" arguement at all. It's the same thing as saying Crabtree should be paid as much or more than Heyward-Bey, because he "should" or "could" have been drafted first.

Where you are drafted is where you are drafted. Regardless of what the reason might be as to why you were drafted lower than perhaps you or others expected.

Off the field, mental, work ethic and those types of issues are as real as concerns about height/weight/speed/talent or any other reason someone falls in the draft.

And while, of course, there are always some players who perform better than expected based on their draft spot. Most 7th rounders and UDFAs do not produce in the NFL and many never make it past the practice squad.

So, expecting anything more from RJF than you would from any other 7th rounder, because at one point he might have been viewed as being drafted earlier, is just fooling yourself with wing and a prayer optimism.

It is highly unlikely that EVERY team in the NFL, including us, was so off in their assesment of this player, that he should be viewed as "mid round talent".

Sure, we all hope he's the DE version of Tom Brady or Marques Colston, but until/unless he starts showing it one the field, there shouldn't be any expectation for more than hopefully landing a roster spot.

What's wrong with looking at a player from that point of view?? All its saying is that the kid has some kind of talent but dropped due to a few cases of injury and questionable character. Which have nothing to do with the way he performs on the field. Example, after his suspension, he came back for the National BCS game vs. Ohio St. and was named Most Outstanding Player. I'm looking at it as if he gets his head straight and is in the right mindset, than maybe he could turn out to be a steal for us. I in no way am thinking he will turn out to be a HOF'er for us, but overall optimistic of his play on the field.

What I'm saying is that people fall for a reason. And none of those reasons can be discounted, regardless of if they are physical, mental or other.

It only takes one team to be enamoured with a guy and make him a much higher pick than maybe he otherwise should be.

However, it takes EVERY team in the NFL repeatedly passing on a guy for him to end up as a late rounder. So, regardless of WHY he wasn't taken until then, or if at some point he might have been viewed as a higher pick, he ended up being a late round pick or UDFA for a reason.

With the amount of time, money, effort and personnel that go into researching and vetting these players, I am far more inclined to believe that when 32 teams and their scounting departments pass on a guy for 5+ rounds or more, that they are going to be right about that far more often than they will be wrong.

They are the ones who make a career out of making these decisions, and they are the ones who have watched all the film, interviewed the kid, his family and coaches/teammates if necessary.

So, us fans regarding a guy as a "mid round" talent, when he wasn't, because we like the player, or because we feel he can "turn it around" or be successful in spite of whatever made the pros pass on him, is to me, fool's gold.

Not that there won't ever be late round guys who produce at a high level. But betting on a guy like RJF, when no team in the NFL thought he was worth even a 6th rounder, tells me a lot more than his play in the few games where he looked good or his draft rating earlier in the year.

Again, I'd love for him to be the Tom Brady of DEs and become a stud. But at this point, I'll just be happy if he wins a roster spot. Then we can worry about anything above and beyond that. Which is generally all you can/should expect out of a 7th rounder or UDFA.

Try telling that to Jay Ferguson, Jay Ratliff, John Randle, La'Roi Glover and Adalius Thomas to name a few. So should we think that a players talent level is more than it was only when he has exceeded expectations of being a late round draft pick?? Don't know why you're making a big deal out of this, people, fans, media coaches talk about players like this all time. Like I said its just another way of looking at a player, in other words, its another opinion.

It's not a big deal, but my opinion, about this opinion, is that it is a case where the exceptions prove the rule. Sure, there are a handful of guys who might have been considered "mid round values" who fell and then performed like first day talents even though they were late picks, but they are far more rare than common.

So, IMO, when honestly assessing the talent added to a team, you are fooling yourself if you view someone you took in the 7th round or as an UDFA as an equal value to a "legit" mid rounder. A 2nd-4th round draft pick, you can (usually) expect to at least be a lock to make the team and often (depending on position) you expect them to have at least some playing time and impact on the team in their first year.

7th rounders and UDFAs, as a rule, are lucky to have a roster spot. And the only reason it really matters, is that, as a fan (or even as management), if you fool yourself into thinking that you have the equivelent of multiple mid round picks, when really you just have a couple, plus several 7th rounders and UDFAs, you are likley to be very disappointed when most of those guys don't end up helping your team.

And I think that is a situation we may find ourselves in this year. I don't know what the team management/ownership REALLY thinks, but I know many, many fans seem to think that some of our major issues as a team will be solved, in large part, due to some of these late picks and UDFAs.

I just think that is a pipe dream. At best, maybe one of them performs above normal expectations for someone drafted at that position, but to think that key roles on our team can be solved with basically draft "leftovers" is dangeroursly optomistic.

I respect your opinion and I also do see your point. But you have to think that when you draft, every player you take from the draft would contribute in some way. Whether it be 1st round pick to an 7th round pick, that player has a role to fulfill, and if expectations are exceeded from your later round picks, its nothing more than good value.

But to expect your players to contribute accordingly by the way they were drafted is illogical, you should know this especially being a 49er fan. Our O-line was filled with late round to UDFA's from Ray Brown, Dave Fiore, Derrick Deese, Jesse Sapolu, John Ayers, Steve Wallace (2nd day pick), Eric Heitmann and Chris Dalman, can't think of anymore right now.

Our team has been leaning on late round picks to UDFA for a while, its nothing new, that's why from what I've seen and IMO its perfectly normal to think that a late round pick to UDFA can or will contribute. I've always been the one to love to find gems or low risk high reward type players, less of a headache if they fail to live up to expectations.
  • titan
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,756
I hope he becomes better than Reggie White, Julius Peppers, Warren Sapp! If not I hope he can be solid, solid like 80 tackles and 10 sacks.
Originally posted by titan:
I hope he becomes better than Reggie White, Julius Peppers, Warren Sapp! If not I hope he can be solid, solid like 80 tackles and 10 sacks.

yes please
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I wouldn't really look at Jean-Francois as a 7th rounder since he was basically projected as a 2nd to 4th round pick before the draft. He pretty much dropped due to his 12 month suspension, attitude and groin injury.

Which makes him a 7th rounder

You see your looking at it as its written, but not understanding the big picture. Of course hes a 7th rounder, thanks Dr. Obvious, but for his play on the field and potential, he was projected around a 2nd-4th round pick. Which is why I said I wouldn't really look at him as a 7th round pick. Different atmosphere, coaching, teammates, mindset, who knows maybe his play will finally live up to the potential people once saw in him.

I don't buy that "he's really 3rd round talent" arguement at all. It's the same thing as saying Crabtree should be paid as much or more than Heyward-Bey, because he "should" or "could" have been drafted first.

Where you are drafted is where you are drafted. Regardless of what the reason might be as to why you were drafted lower than perhaps you or others expected.

Off the field, mental, work ethic and those types of issues are as real as concerns about height/weight/speed/talent or any other reason someone falls in the draft.

And while, of course, there are always some players who perform better than expected based on their draft spot. Most 7th rounders and UDFAs do not produce in the NFL and many never make it past the practice squad.

So, expecting anything more from RJF than you would from any other 7th rounder, because at one point he might have been viewed as being drafted earlier, is just fooling yourself with wing and a prayer optimism.

It is highly unlikely that EVERY team in the NFL, including us, was so off in their assesment of this player, that he should be viewed as "mid round talent".

Sure, we all hope he's the DE version of Tom Brady or Marques Colston, but until/unless he starts showing it one the field, there shouldn't be any expectation for more than hopefully landing a roster spot.

What's wrong with looking at a player from that point of view?? All its saying is that the kid has some kind of talent but dropped due to a few cases of injury and questionable character. Which have nothing to do with the way he performs on the field. Example, after his suspension, he came back for the National BCS game vs. Ohio St. and was named Most Outstanding Player. I'm looking at it as if he gets his head straight and is in the right mindset, than maybe he could turn out to be a steal for us. I in no way am thinking he will turn out to be a HOF'er for us, but overall optimistic of his play on the field.

What I'm saying is that people fall for a reason. And none of those reasons can be discounted, regardless of if they are physical, mental or other.

It only takes one team to be enamoured with a guy and make him a much higher pick than maybe he otherwise should be.

However, it takes EVERY team in the NFL repeatedly passing on a guy for him to end up as a late rounder. So, regardless of WHY he wasn't taken until then, or if at some point he might have been viewed as a higher pick, he ended up being a late round pick or UDFA for a reason.

With the amount of time, money, effort and personnel that go into researching and vetting these players, I am far more inclined to believe that when 32 teams and their scounting departments pass on a guy for 5+ rounds or more, that they are going to be right about that far more often than they will be wrong.

They are the ones who make a career out of making these decisions, and they are the ones who have watched all the film, interviewed the kid, his family and coaches/teammates if necessary.

So, us fans regarding a guy as a "mid round" talent, when he wasn't, because we like the player, or because we feel he can "turn it around" or be successful in spite of whatever made the pros pass on him, is to me, fool's gold.

Not that there won't ever be late round guys who produce at a high level. But betting on a guy like RJF, when no team in the NFL thought he was worth even a 6th rounder, tells me a lot more than his play in the few games where he looked good or his draft rating earlier in the year.

Again, I'd love for him to be the Tom Brady of DEs and become a stud. But at this point, I'll just be happy if he wins a roster spot. Then we can worry about anything above and beyond that. Which is generally all you can/should expect out of a 7th rounder or UDFA.

Try telling that to Jay Ferguson, Jay Ratliff, John Randle, La'Roi Glover and Adalius Thomas to name a few. So should we think that a players talent level is more than it was only when he has exceeded expectations of being a late round draft pick?? Don't know why you're making a big deal out of this, people, fans, media coaches talk about players like this all time. Like I said its just another way of looking at a player, in other words, its another opinion.

It's not a big deal, but my opinion, about this opinion, is that it is a case where the exceptions prove the rule. Sure, there are a handful of guys who might have been considered "mid round values" who fell and then performed like first day talents even though they were late picks, but they are far more rare than common.

So, IMO, when honestly assessing the talent added to a team, you are fooling yourself if you view someone you took in the 7th round or as an UDFA as an equal value to a "legit" mid rounder. A 2nd-4th round draft pick, you can (usually) expect to at least be a lock to make the team and often (depending on position) you expect them to have at least some playing time and impact on the team in their first year.

7th rounders and UDFAs, as a rule, are lucky to have a roster spot. And the only reason it really matters, is that, as a fan (or even as management), if you fool yourself into thinking that you have the equivelent of multiple mid round picks, when really you just have a couple, plus several 7th rounders and UDFAs, you are likley to be very disappointed when most of those guys don't end up helping your team.

And I think that is a situation we may find ourselves in this year. I don't know what the team management/ownership REALLY thinks, but I know many, many fans seem to think that some of our major issues as a team will be solved, in large part, due to some of these late picks and UDFAs.

I just think that is a pipe dream. At best, maybe one of them performs above normal expectations for someone drafted at that position, but to think that key roles on our team can be solved with basically draft "leftovers" is dangeroursly optomistic.

I respect your opinion and I also do see your point. But you have to think that when you draft, every player you take from the draft would contribute in some way. Whether it be 1st round pick to an 7th round pick, that player has a role to fulfill, and if expectations are exceeded from your later round picks, its nothing more than good value.

But to expect your players to contribute accordingly by the way they were drafted is illogical, you should know this especially being a 49er fan. Our O-line was filled with late round to UDFA's from Ray Brown, Dave Fiore, Derrick Deese, Jesse Sapolu, John Ayers, Steve Wallace (2nd day pick), Eric Heitmann and Chris Dalman, can't think of anymore right now.

Our team has been leaning on late round picks to UDFA for a while, its nothing new, that's why from what I've seen and IMO its perfectly normal to think that a late round pick to UDFA can or will contribute. I've always been the one to love to find gems or low risk high reward type players, less of a headache if they fail to live up to expectations.

While it's true we have struck gold in the past (though not as often as we, and every team in the NFL haven't with late picks/UDFAs), I just think we have to be very careful with this philosphy. Plus we don't exactly have Bill Walsh making those choices any longer.

Taking a flyer on a guy then, since you have the picks or they are FAs, is no big deal. But it's like buying penny stocks. Given the price, if you want to load up a bit on them, it's relatively low risk.

UNLESS, you invest too much of your portfollio in them and/or, just don't invest in better options, because you have convinced yourself that your longshots will pay off.

Our team has been set back years by trying to make Tim Rattay types the answer at key positions. And that is my major concern. If we added players we hope can be far better values than their draft position as depth players/projects who we hope will help us someday, I'm fine with that. After all, we have to take SOMEBODY with our late round picks and every teams picks up UDFAs.

But when the only players we add at key positions are those caliber of players, I worry that we are depending too much on longshots. If we had signed/drafted a stud pass rusher AND taken RJF, it would be one thing.

But when we do nothing other than hope either the guys we have suddenly get much better and/or that 7th rounders or UDFAs are going to make enough impact to significantly improve the team, I really have to question that approach.

And when you start hyping up late rounders and UDFAs as "mid round values", I think it just adds to the problem. You are fooling yourself into thinking (hoping) that you have added more than you really have.

Like I said, adding those guys and hoping for something more out of them is fine. If they are projects/backup plans. If they are a major factor in how you expect to improve the team, you are likely setting yourself up for failure.

Far more late rounders/UDFAs perform as such than become stud NFL players. For most, even making the roster and performing well on special teams is considered a success.

It's just the difference, to me, of FINDING someone there who happens to exceed expectations when they were not necessarily drafted to be an impact player, and LOOKING to fill a hole with someone you draft there and hoping that they will outperform their draft spot when you don't do anything else to shore up that position.

I understand thinking RJF may have some potential, the hope that we got a steal. But when he is pretty much all we added to improve our pass rush, I really wonder if we aren't putting too much stock in that philosophy.
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