OFFENSIVE LINE PLAY: Most Important

Originally posted by Marvin49:
LOL! Um...then make sense. ;-) You are saying that Alex contributed to poor O-Line play and then saying that your proof is that other QBs have played better with worse lines. What does one have to do with the other? If Alex were contibuting to poor O-Line play, that would mean that he himself is making the O-Line worse than it actually is.

You can't grasp the point. Don't blame that on me.

Alex Smith's play effects the perceived performance of the OL. The oline has in turn not looked great.

The Oline has also not been horrible, other QBs have done better than Alex with the same, and arguably weaker, offensive lines (Shaun Hill)

Alex Smith has been horrible, yet the offensive line has still looked like a decent group with potential.

Alex Smith can only look decent when the OL play is Stellar, yet the Oline play looks decent at times when the QB play is much less than Stellar.

Thats my point even if you find some b******t contracdiction in the verbiage I chose to use.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Sigh. I give up.

Go ahead and hate the guy. Its your right. I'm done trying to convince the unconvincable.

I don't hate the guy I am not convinced the OL is the reason he sucks. You can hate me for having that perspective I really don't care I have been watching football for many years and I feel like I know when I am watching a decent QB.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Well, the good thing is that it is fair to say that both QB and OL played to the level of NFL standard with terrible scheming admittingly, it wasn't to a high or average standard, but it wasn't horrid. This tells me that both WILL (garuantee) improve as the scheme improves. To what degree, who knows.

Glad to hear you predict as much. Let's just see how long you keep this open minded persona this time.

We all know he's a solid QB. We all don't know that he most likely won't take us very far and we will always come away from Sundays with that feeling of, "Man, if he made this play...he misses the big opportunities at key contexts of the game..."

I will take that for now until the next QB has ready to push us over the top.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Ok now I know you are clueless. Shaun Hill outplayed Alex Smith there is no debating that. Troy Smith had more wins than Alex last year there is no debating that. Trent Dilfer had a 300 yard 3 touchdown win over Kurt Warner and the Cardinals Alex Smith has never had a win like that. Team Rattay had a 400 yard game in 04 Alex Smith never has and will never do that.

shaun hill didnt take us to any playoff games and he could only make about half the throws needed of an nfl qb. troy smith also played the weakest teams on the schedule, but how could that matter right? trent dilfer was a veteran with a superbowl ring, he was supposed to be able to play. to bad he fell flat on his face and alex had to take the riegns back. 2004? smith wasnt even drafted yet and rattay was so bad he had to have a battle with ken dorsey who started 7 games that year.

one common theme here is that none of the qbs who have played for san fran have been successful. im going to go out on a limb and say there was a higher power that was to blame for this. its called the hc!

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Overkill:
Green Bay's struggles at OL weren't simply a product of injuries or limited to a single position. They had shaky play all across the line for most of the season (with the exception of Clifton) and still had huge questions in the playoffs. Bulaga struggled with speed rushers throughout the year, and got owned by Lamar Woodley in the SB (at least 5 pressures). The LG (forgot his name) was the only capable run blocker but also did his best traffic cone impression on passing plays. The RG & C were average (at best) when pass blocking and never got any push when run blocking. This wasn't a line anchored by studs that overcame a few weak spots. And the Green Bay passing attack was effective long before the playoffs. Swap GB's OL for ours and I'm not sure you'd see much of a record change for either team.

The Pittsburgh-AZ SB featured lines with multiple holes on each side, too.

I know this topic comes close to one that makes a lot of zoners lose all rationality, but the truth is that OL & QB affect each other. Any argument about which affects the other more strikes me as a matter of opinion, but in the overall scheme of things, I'd say its obvious QB play is more important than OL play.

Maybe in the overall scheme of things, but if you oline doesn't pass block worth a f**k, then your QB is going to have a really hard time. To make a blanket statement like the bolded above shows a general ignorance of how the game of football works, if the oline doesn't work, your offense is s**tty...period. I asked earlier for one of you "QB makes the line look bad" guys to tell me how that can possible work other than a QB holding the ball too long...I am still waiting on a response. It is basic and common knowledge that the game of football starts with the lines, if you guys don't comprehend that, I feel sorry for you cause that is something even the most noobish of football fans should know.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Sigh. I give up.

Go ahead and hate the guy. Its your right. I'm done trying to convince the unconvincable.

I forgot to tell you I love your videos!

Seriously, I don't dislike fans who support Alex and I certainly don't hate Alex. I am just ready for a QB to show me something.

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
shaun hill didnt take us to any playoff games and he could only make about half the throws needed of an nfl qb. troy smith also played the weakest teams on the schedule, but how could that matter right? trent dilfer was a veteran with a superbowl ring, he was supposed to be able to play. to bad he fell flat on his face and alex had to take the riegns back. 2004? smith wasnt even drafted yet and rattay was so bad he had to have a battle with ken dorsey who started 7 games that year.

one common theme here is that none of the qbs who have played for san fran have been successful. im going to go out on a limb and say there was a higher power that was to blame for this. its called the hc!

Shaun Hill could make about as many NFL throws as Alex can make. Shaun Hill didn't miss people in the flats or wide open in the endzone on a goal line play. He also won more games here than hes lost. Troy Smith at least could make a play when the play broke down, with no training camp or time to gel with the offense at all. Trent Dilfer had a QB rating below 75 when he won a superbowl, if he is supposed to be better than a #1 overall pick then thats a pretty bad pick inst it?

Tim Rattay was on the niners in 2005. Whether or not alex was on the team in 04 it was the same roster Rattay was playing with.

Coaching has definitly been the biggest factor. I am not optomistic that a coaching change is going to drastically improve Alex's play, which is what we need to be a good team.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Overkill:
Green Bay's struggles at OL weren't simply a product of injuries or limited to a single position. They had shaky play all across the line for most of the season (with the exception of Clifton) and still had huge questions in the playoffs. Bulaga struggled with speed rushers throughout the year, and got owned by Lamar Woodley in the SB (at least 5 pressures). The LG (forgot his name) was the only capable run blocker but also did his best traffic cone impression on passing plays. The RG & C were average (at best) when pass blocking and never got any push when run blocking. This wasn't a line anchored by studs that overcame a few weak spots. And the Green Bay passing attack was effective long before the playoffs. Swap GB's OL for ours and I'm not sure you'd see much of a record change for either team.

The Pittsburgh-AZ SB featured lines with multiple holes on each side, too.

I know this topic comes close to one that makes a lot of zoners lose all rationality, but the truth is that OL & QB affect each other. Any argument about which affects the other more strikes me as a matter of opinion, but in the overall scheme of things, I'd say its obvious QB play is more important than OL play.

Maybe in the overall scheme of things, but if you oline doesn't pass block worth a f**k, then your QB is going to have a really hard time. To make a blanket statement like the bolded above shows a general ignorance of how the game of football works, if the oline doesn't work, your offense is s**tty...period. I asked earlier for one of you "QB makes the line look bad" guys to tell me how that can possible work other than a QB holding the ball too long...I am still waiting on a response. It is basic and common knowledge that the game of football starts with the lines, if you guys don't comprehend that, I feel sorry for you cause that is something even the most noobish of football fans should know.

You do realize this conversation is within the context of the fact that we have seen OUR OL play and our QB in comparison to another QB with a possibly worse OL. It is obvious that an OL that is truly crap will not make a QB look better. However, a good QB can hide a crap OL's weaknesses.

Either way, our OL isn't as bad as some want to make it. It has been obvious that our QB's have held onto the ball long or do not have pocket awareness. I do believe, in our case, the QB is making our OL look worse than the other way around.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I do know that. Alex Smith doesn't play consistently well whether hes had time or not. The line has at least been good enough to allow 4 concecutive 1000 seasons for their starting running back. The QB can make a OL look as bad in passprotection as the OL can make a QB look bad in the pocket.

You know, there is a difference between run blocking and pass blocking. The only way a qb can make a line look bad is holding the ball too long, a great example is Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. If there is another way that can happen, please fill me in.

Good point. About mid-season McCarthy got on Rodgers about holding the ball too long. He was holding it something like .75 seconds longer than the average and was taking a lot of hits as a result. He cut it down and the OL suddenly looked better. duh.

Originally posted by smashmouth51:
Davis is not athletic enough to be an NFL OT. I hope that Boone is ready and they move Davis to RG and move Boone to RT. Rachal is too damn lazy to continue to be "given" a starting position. He needs to earn it. Just being a wide body doesn't make you a good player. He has some skills but "if ur not improving, ur getting worse!

Athleticism was not his problem last year, it was a lack of strength. Davis has the quickest footwork on the OL. Note how well he handled Clay Matthews, as but one example.

His problem was that power rushers were just throwing him around. Let's hope he has spent enough time in the weight room to overcome that.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Overkill:
Green Bay's struggles at OL weren't simply a product of injuries or limited to a single position. They had shaky play all across the line for most of the season (with the exception of Clifton) and still had huge questions in the playoffs. Bulaga struggled with speed rushers throughout the year, and got owned by Lamar Woodley in the SB (at least 5 pressures). The LG (forgot his name) was the only capable run blocker but also did his best traffic cone impression on passing plays. The RG & C were average (at best) when pass blocking and never got any push when run blocking. This wasn't a line anchored by studs that overcame a few weak spots. And the Green Bay passing attack was effective long before the playoffs. Swap GB's OL for ours and I'm not sure you'd see much of a record change for either team.

The Pittsburgh-AZ SB featured lines with multiple holes on each side, too.

I know this topic comes close to one that makes a lot of zoners lose all rationality, but the truth is that OL & QB affect each other. Any argument about which affects the other more strikes me as a matter of opinion, but in the overall scheme of things, I'd say its obvious QB play is more important than OL play.

Maybe in the overall scheme of things, but if you oline doesn't pass block worth a f**k, then your QB is going to have a really hard time. To make a blanket statement like the bolded above shows a general ignorance of how the game of football works, if the oline doesn't work, your offense is s**tty...period. I asked earlier for one of you "QB makes the line look bad" guys to tell me how that can possible work other than a QB holding the ball too long...I am still waiting on a response. It is basic and common knowledge that the game of football starts with the lines, if you guys don't comprehend that, I feel sorry for you cause that is something even the most noobish of football fans should know.

You do realize this conversation is within the context of the fact that we have seen OUR OL play and our QB in comparison to another QB with a possibly worse OL. It is obvious that an OL that is truly crap will not make a QB look better. However, a good QB can hide a crap OL's weaknesses.

Either way, our OL isn't as bad as some want to make it. It has been obvious that our QB's have held onto the ball long or do not have pocket awareness. I do believe, in our case, the QB is making our OL look worse than the other way around.

5-7 step drops, by the time our QB finishes his drop the OL has already been beaten (most of the time), the WRs aren't open or breaking off their routes when a blitz is read. There's really much more to it than one would think. I hope the TEAM has more of an idea of what to do because if they continue to be unprepared like they were with the previous coaching staffs it's going to be a long year.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I do know that. Alex Smith doesn't play consistently well whether hes had time or not. The line has at least been good enough to allow 4 concecutive 1000 seasons for their starting running back. The QB can make a OL look as bad in passprotection as the OL can make a QB look bad in the pocket.

You know, there is a difference between run blocking and pass blocking. The only way a qb can make a line look bad is holding the ball too long, a great example is Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. If there is another way that can happen, please fill me in.

Good point. About mid-season McCarthy got on Rodgers about holding the ball too long. He was holding it something like .75 seconds longer than the average and was taking a lot of hits as a result. He cut it down and the OL suddenly looked better. duh.

... and this is a QB that had years to sit and learn the same scheme, huh? Go figure...

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I do know that. Alex Smith doesn't play consistently well whether hes had time or not. The line has at least been good enough to allow 4 concecutive 1000 seasons for their starting running back. The QB can make a OL look as bad in passprotection as the OL can make a QB look bad in the pocket.

You know, there is a difference between run blocking and pass blocking. The only way a qb can make a line look bad is holding the ball too long, a great example is Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. If there is another way that can happen, please fill me in.

Good point. About mid-season McCarthy got on Rodgers about holding the ball too long. He was holding it something like .75 seconds longer than the average and was taking a lot of hits as a result. He cut it down and the OL suddenly looked better. duh.

... and this is a QB that had years to sit and learn the same scheme, huh? Go figure...

If there is one QB I would compare Alex Smith to, it would be Jason Campbell. Both have been in similar learning curves and Jason Campbell, with a better OC was a part of a very good offense last year. Let us hope Alex does the same. also would like to add that Campbell isn't a keeper.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I do know that. Alex Smith doesn't play consistently well whether hes had time or not. The line has at least been good enough to allow 4 concecutive 1000 seasons for their starting running back. The QB can make a OL look as bad in passprotection as the OL can make a QB look bad in the pocket.

You know, there is a difference between run blocking and pass blocking. The only way a qb can make a line look bad is holding the ball too long, a great example is Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. If there is another way that can happen, please fill me in.

Good point. About mid-season McCarthy got on Rodgers about holding the ball too long. He was holding it something like .75 seconds longer than the average and was taking a lot of hits as a result. He cut it down and the OL suddenly looked better. duh.

... and this is a QB that had years to sit and learn the same scheme, huh? Go figure...

If there is one QB I would compare Alex Smith to, it would be Jason Campbell. Both have been in similar learning curves and Jason Campbell, with a better OC was a part of a very good offense last year. Let us hope Alex does the same. also would like to add that Campbell isn't a keeper.

I agree that out of the few QBs that had a large leve of lousy support circumstances, JC is a reasonable fair comparison. (though Alex still had it worse)

What's the bolded about though? Campbell and Smith had about the same level of success last year, individually speaking.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I do know that. Alex Smith doesn't play consistently well whether hes had time or not. The line has at least been good enough to allow 4 concecutive 1000 seasons for their starting running back. The QB can make a OL look as bad in passprotection as the OL can make a QB look bad in the pocket.

You know, there is a difference between run blocking and pass blocking. The only way a qb can make a line look bad is holding the ball too long, a great example is Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay. If there is another way that can happen, please fill me in.

Good point. About mid-season McCarthy got on Rodgers about holding the ball too long. He was holding it something like .75 seconds longer than the average and was taking a lot of hits as a result. He cut it down and the OL suddenly looked better. duh.

... and this is a QB that had years to sit and learn the same scheme, huh? Go figure...

If there is one QB I would compare Alex Smith to, it would be Jason Campbell. Both have been in similar learning curves and Jason Campbell, with a better OC was a part of a very good offense last year. Let us hope Alex does the same. also would like to add that Campbell isn't a keeper.

I agree that out of the few QBs that had a large leve of lousy support circumstances, JC is a reasonable fair comparison. (though Alex still had it worse)

What's the bolded about though? Campbell and Smith had about the same level of success last year, individually speaking.

It was said that JC turned it later in the year. Much better than Alex. JC's early season stats hurt him a lot.