3-4 or 4-3

Originally posted by posayshoohaa:

Originally posted by backontop:


why on earth...wtf...huh?

So your 4-3 would look like this

Laboy, Smith, Franklin, McDonald, Brooks


Last I checked that is more than 4 lineman. IF the 49ers went back to a 4-3 it would probably be similar to this

Clements----------------Smith, Franklin, RFJ(Soap), McDonald--------------Spencer
---------------------------Brooks ------------Willis----------------Lawson
--------------------------------------Mays-------------Goldson

Uhh.. what? I said Smith and McDonald would be the UTs as in Smith would start and McDonald would be his back up. I can't believe anyone would actually confuse that for me saying we'd have a 5 man DL.

To be clear this is how my starters would look..

LaBoy-Franklin-Smith-Haralson

..and the back ups..

Brooks-RJF-McDonald-Brooks

..And not to confuse anyone who'd think that we have 2 Brooks or he'd play both DEs at the same time I put him at both ends because he'd rotate with LaBoy and Haralson because we don't have a true every down 4-3 DE on this team.

McDonald as back up and Smith as a tackle?

where's lawson (DE out of College)

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

McDonald as back up and Smith as a tackle?

where's lawson (DE out of College)

Yeah.. I think he's fast off the snap but I don't think he has the speed to beat left tackles. I think his best fit would be as a 3rd down inside rush specialist.

And I got Lawson at strong side linebacker .. I think he's too similar to Julian Peterson to not attempt to use him the same way. Others would be Willis in the middle obviously and Bowman on the weak side even though we'd probably miss Spikes leadership on the field.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
I don't see why this defense get's so much hate...

I mean no disrespect, but I really think you are burying your head in the sand. The stats this season are not horrific, but forget stats... just watching the games should indicate clearly to you that this defense is not playing nearly as well as they should. The personnel talent is there... the scheming and utilization is Jekyll + Hyde.

Cosigned. This team has 4-3 talent, not 3-4 talent. And why the hell do people think Justin Smith can't play DE in a 4-3? He spent the majority of his career doing that in Cincinatti, he was never a 3-4 DE before he got here and he's a good pass rusher who would be doing better in a 4-3.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
I don't see why this defense get's so much hate...

I mean no disrespect, but I really think you are burying your head in the sand. The stats this season are not horrific, but forget stats... just watching the games should indicate clearly to you that this defense is not playing nearly as well as they should. The personnel talent is there... the scheming and utilization is Jekyll + Hyde.

Cosigned. This team has 4-3 talent, not 3-4 talent. And why the hell do people think Justin Smith can't play DE in a 4-3? He spent the majority of his career doing that in Cincinatti, he was never a 3-4 DE before he got here and he's a good pass rusher who would be doing better in a 4-3.

Thank you, Justin Smith IS a true 4-3 DE going back to the days where he played DE with the bengals in a 4-3 D and will not plat DT,guerenteed. Lawson would be purely a OLB(also think he can be a more athletic Julian Peterson type). BUT he could also in dime packages pass the rusher if we please. Like I said with goodluck of a stud DE in the draft, McDonald goes to the bench. IMO,thered be no need to sign LaBoy due to the fact Brooks&Haralson can rush.

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
I don't see why this defense get's so much hate...

I mean no disrespect, but I really think you are burying your head in the sand. The stats this season are not horrific, but forget stats... just watching the games should indicate clearly to you that this defense is not playing nearly as well as they should. The personnel talent is there... the scheming and utilization is Jekyll + Hyde.

Cosigned. This team has 4-3 talent, not 3-4 talent. And why the hell do people think Justin Smith can't play DE in a 4-3? He spent the majority of his career doing that in Cincinatti, he was never a 3-4 DE before he got here and he's a good pass rusher who would be doing better in a 4-3.

Thank you, Justin Smith IS a true 4-3 DE going back to the days where he played DE with the bengals in a 4-3 D and will not plat DT,guerenteed. Lawson would be purely a OLB(also think he can be a more athletic Julian Peterson type). BUT he could also in dime packages pass the rusher if we please. Like I said with goodluck of a stud DE in the draft, McDonald goes to the bench. IMO,thered be no need to sign LaBoy due to the fact Brooks&Haralson can rush.

Actually LaBoy has played DE before in AZ and TN and did pretty well. He's not just a OLB. If our defensive coaching staff wasn't married to the 3-4 like a bunch of morons then we could field a pretty good D by signing Al Harris and switching to the 4-3. LBs would be Bowman/Spikes, Willis, and Manny. DEs would be LaBoy and Justin Smith. DTs a rotation of Franklin, RJF, and Ray Mac. You get our 4 best pass rushers on the DL with a DL of Smith and LaBoy at DE and Franklin or RJF and Ray McDonald at DE. RayMac's skills our wasted in the 3-4 because he'd be able to rush the passer more in a 4-3, instead of just taking on blockers in the 3-4.

The 3-4 if we would use it right is better. We just haven't been blitzing much and playing a lot of prevent and conservative defense. Most years the 3-4 defenses are tops in the league. (Ravens, Steelers, Patriots)

I think it depends on who we hire and what he wants.

I'd have to say, regardless of what people think in which one is the better defense overall, IMO, we need to stick with the 3-4. We're really close to completing it, all we need is a consistent pass-rusher as a starter and maybe lock Aubrayo Franklin up to a multiple year contract and we're set. Switching us back to the 4-3 would set us back.

if we lose Franklin after this season then maybe

you seem to know a lot about strategy, at least much more than I do...
could anyone give me a link, but not wiki, which explains in detal which characteristics a prototype 4-3 or a 3-4 DE/DT/LB has to have and so on...

i could guess a lot but i wanna know it for sure

Originally posted by communist:
you seem to know a lot about strategy, at least much more than I do...
could anyone give me a link, but not wiki, which explains in detal which characteristics a prototype 4-3 or a 3-4 DE/DT/LB has to have and so on...

i could guess a lot but i wanna know it for sure

Basically a 4-3 D works by having the 2 DEs be pass rushers and the 2 DTs can be run stuffers but sometimes one of them can get after the QB like an Albert Haynesworth or Warren Sapp. The MLB has the 4 DL in front of him and the 2 big DTs right in front of him so he can play side to side and play the whole field. The LBs generally do not rush the passer very much.

In the 3-4, you have the 3 big DL whose main jobs are taking on blockers rather than beating one on one match ups. The OLBs are your pass rushers and you can send more blitzes because they don't know which of the 4 LBs is coming on a particular play. Schematically the 3-4 is superior but it is MUCH harder to find the personnel for. You need a huge 2 gapping NT who can demand a double team.

The problem with the 3-4 is we've tried to run it over the last 5 years or whatever and we still haven't found our pass rushing OLBs. Our NT Franklin is not a 2 gapper and he's not that big, he's only about 315-320. Our pass rushing OLBs aren't very good LBs, LaBoy and Haralson would probably both be better as DEs and Manny is not a pass rusher, he's your classic 4-3 OLB who can drop back in coverage or play the run. Justin Smith was a good pass rusher in the 4-3 as a 4-3 DE but in the 3-4 he's always doubled or playing the run. We just don't have the personnel for it and sticking with it is stupid and single minded.

edit: and whoever said that the 3-4 teams always have better defense, not true:

4-3 teams to have won the superbowl in last few years:
2009NO
2007NYG
2006Indy

over the last 4 years only 1 3-4 team won it, Pittsburgh in 08.

typically good defenses that run the 4-3
Philly
NYG
Tennessee
Indy(decent)
Vikings

4-3 All day every day son.

screw it lets go with the 5-2-2-1

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
I don't see why this defense get's so much hate...

I mean no disrespect, but I really think you are burying your head in the sand. The stats this season are not horrific, but forget stats... just watching the games should indicate clearly to you that this defense is not playing nearly as well as they should. The personnel talent is there... the scheming and utilization is Jekyll + Hyde.

Cosigned. This team has 4-3 talent, not 3-4 talent. And why the hell do people think Justin Smith can't play DE in a 4-3? He spent the majority of his career doing that in Cincinatti, he was never a 3-4 DE before he got here and he's a good pass rusher who would be doing better in a 4-3.

Thank you, Justin Smith IS a true 4-3 DE going back to the days where he played DE with the bengals in a 4-3 D and will not plat DT,guerenteed. Lawson would be purely a OLB(also think he can be a more athletic Julian Peterson type). BUT he could also in dime packages pass the rusher if we please. Like I said with goodluck of a stud DE in the draft, McDonald goes to the bench. IMO,thered be no need to sign LaBoy due to the fact Brooks&Haralson can rush.

Smith has been a 4-3 end and plays it well. He would remain at end in the base defense if we went to a 4 man front. But he can play inside, and should be used there on obvious passing downs like the team has done with him in the past.

4-3 and west cost O = 6th ring

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by communist:
you seem to know a lot about strategy, at least much more than I do...
could anyone give me a link, but not wiki, which explains in detal which characteristics a prototype 4-3 or a 3-4 DE/DT/LB has to have and so on...

i could guess a lot but i wanna know it for sure

Basically a 4-3 D works by having the 2 DEs be pass rushers and the 2 DTs can be run stuffers but sometimes one of them can get after the QB like an Albert Haynesworth or Warren Sapp. The MLB has the 4 DL in front of him and the 2 big DTs right in front of him so he can play side to side and play the whole field. The LBs generally do not rush the passer very much.

In the 3-4, you have the 3 big DL whose main jobs are taking on blockers rather than beating one on one match ups. The OLBs are your pass rushers and you can send more blitzes because they don't know which of the 4 LBs is coming on a particular play. Schematically the 3-4 is superior but it is MUCH harder to find the personnel for. You need a huge 2 gapping NT who can demand a double team.

The problem with the 3-4 is we've tried to run it over the last 5 years or whatever and we still haven't found our pass rushing OLBs. Our NT Franklin is not a 2 gapper and he's not that big, he's only about 315-320. Our pass rushing OLBs aren't very good LBs, LaBoy and Haralson would probably both be better as DEs and Manny is not a pass rusher, he's your classic 4-3 OLB who can drop back in coverage or play the run. Justin Smith was a good pass rusher in the 4-3 as a 4-3 DE but in the 3-4 he's always doubled or playing the run. We just don't have the personnel for it and sticking with it is stupid and single minded.

edit: and whoever said that the 3-4 teams always have better defense, not true:

4-3 teams to have won the superbowl in last few years:
2009NO
2007NYG
2006Indy

over the last 4 years only 1 3-4 team won it, Pittsburgh in 08.

typically good defenses that run the 4-3
Philly
NYG
Tennessee
Indy(decent)
Vikings

Excellent post and well stated. While I'm a bigger fan of the 3-4 defenses, in reality, I just love aggressive defenses that dictate offenses. The Steelers have been dominating for 100 years on defense with their style of 3-4 and every year add pieces through the draft that fit their philosophy (it's the WCO of defense on so many levels). The Jets are a team the employs fantastic blitz schemes.

I think we are better suited for the 4-3 with our personnel at the moment but even with that said, I think Manusky is too muh of a Nolan/Singletary clone to ever take the next step and take this defense from being a predictable and passive defense to a dominating and dictating defense that forces offenses to beat you. I just don't see it. It all starts with philosophy and despite the same personnel, same defense for five+ years now, we've actually regressed on many levels esp. with coaching!