Would you trade Frank Gore??

I think I found the difference between these two threads, one is "Would you" and the other clearly puts the option on the team, so here we go, I would not trade Frank gore (unless it was a crazy sick one sided trade) But I think the Niners "Should" look into a trade, see my crazy sick one sided thing!

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:
I dont understand why people say Frank Gore is old he is 26 years old everybody knows the magic number for RBs is 30, he is still in his prime

Ladanian Tomlinsons best year was when he was 27

Shaun Alexander best years was when he was 27,28


Jim Browns had 1800 yards when he was 27

Frank Gore is in his prime the 9ers would be very foolish to trade Frank Gore


Yes the 9ers need to incorporate the spread offense but to totally go 100 percent spread is jsut stupid, you need a Running game especially in the playoffs

I think most people are saying he is the oldest of the talent positions. I.e. he will be old sooner than others on the team, both in real and "running back years" I think most people also agree that Frank is in his Prime. At 26 he is worth a 1st Rd. pick and perhaps a bit more. That's why the talk. He likely won't have the same value when he is 28. So the question is can the sum of all the parts improve at the expense of one of the most talented players? It's a team game and if you can upgrade the line you can run the ball with a lesser back than Frank Gore. That's the theory anyway.

I understand that but if you trade Frank Gore, your not gonna trade him for another RB, like you said it may be for an Olineman or a safety or whatever. Say we do trade him for an o linemen, then what Glen Coffee is not the answer at RB, why trade Frank Gore for a unproven 1st RD pick, what if that pick ends up being a bust?

Now correct me if im wrong but havent Frank Gores injuries since he has been in the NFL been his shoulder and his ankle, i dont recall him having a knee injury in the NFL, i know in college he had some


It may be jsut the homer in me, but i dont see any scenario in which trading Frank Gore makes the 9ers a better team

Well I will agree that there is no "apparent" scenario which makes the 49ers better. But just look at the Hershel Walker deal or the pats in recent years. Truth is we already have two first round picks next year so if there is a linemen hopefully we'll get one or maybe two. As good as our defense is we could stand to upgrade/shore up the secondary and we don't have a "dominant" pass rusher. So we could really go anywhere in the draft. But our greatest need is probably O Line. But just look at the Pats current model. If we could say get an extra pick in the 2011 draft or in this years 2010 draft then we will have to flexibility to trade up for a dominant player in any draft or pay forward to the next years first round while stocking up on needed talent in the second and third rounds of the draft. Also, if there is ONE position that teams seem to be able to draft with considerable consistancy and success I would have to argue that it is the RB position. Every year there is a new crop of young and talented guys who are scooped up in the draft. Gore is a perfect example of the ability to find a quality guy outside of the first round. So it's not outside of imaginiation that Gore could be "parlayed" into some positions of "greater need" and then we just find another back out there.

Nicely put VA. Frank is one of my favorites, but there is no room for sentiment in the NFL. I am glad that 50+% of this board is not our GM, cause any fool would trade what will be a 6th year back for a 1st. ESPECIALLY in a no cap era, which it appears the league is headed for, with historicaly cheap owners.

The thought of this is utterly rediculous... maybe something subliminal in Youngs' opinon... ? who know's, but he is way too valuable a running back for us.

When are the dumb questions going to stop????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come the hell on, my word.

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:
I dont understand why people say Frank Gore is old he is 26 years old everybody knows the magic number for RBs is 30, he is still in his prime

Ladanian Tomlinsons best year was when he was 27

Shaun Alexander best years was when he was 27,28


Jim Browns had 1800 yards when he was 27

Frank Gore is in his prime the 9ers would be very foolish to trade Frank Gore


Yes the 9ers need to incorporate the spread offense but to totally go 100 percent spread is jsut stupid, you need a Running game especially in the playoffs

I think most people are saying he is the oldest of the talent positions. I.e. he will be old sooner than others on the team, both in real and "running back years" I think most people also agree that Frank is in his Prime. At 26 he is worth a 1st Rd. pick and perhaps a bit more. That's why the talk. He likely won't have the same value when he is 28. So the question is can the sum of all the parts improve at the expense of one of the most talented players? It's a team game and if you can upgrade the line you can run the ball with a lesser back than Frank Gore. That's the theory anyway.

I understand that but if you trade Frank Gore, your not gonna trade him for another RB, like you said it may be for an Olineman or a safety or whatever. Say we do trade him for an o linemen, then what Glen Coffee is not the answer at RB, why trade Frank Gore for a unproven 1st RD pick, what if that pick ends up being a bust?

Now correct me if im wrong but havent Frank Gores injuries since he has been in the NFL been his shoulder and his ankle, i dont recall him having a knee injury in the NFL, i know in college he had some


It may be jsut the homer in me, but i dont see any scenario in which trading Frank Gore makes the 9ers a better team

Well I will agree that there is no "apparent" scenario which makes the 49ers better. But just look at the Hershel Walker deal or the pats in recent years. Truth is we already have two first round picks next year so if there is a linemen hopefully we'll get one or maybe two. As good as our defense is we could stand to upgrade/shore up the secondary and we don't have a "dominant" pass rusher. So we could really go anywhere in the draft. But our greatest need is probably O Line. But just look at the Pats current model. If we could say get an extra pick in the 2011 draft or in this years 2010 draft then we will have to flexibility to trade up for a dominant player in any draft or pay forward to the next years first round while stocking up on needed talent in the second and third rounds of the draft. Also, if there is ONE position that teams seem to be able to draft with considerable consistancy and success I would have to argue that it is the RB position. Every year there is a new crop of young and talented guys who are scooped up in the draft. Gore is a perfect example of the ability to find a quality guy outside of the first round. So it's not outside of imaginiation that Gore could be "parlayed" into some positions of "greater need" and then we just find another back out there.

Nicely put VA. Frank is one of my favorites, but there is no room for sentiment in the NFL. I am glad that 50+% of this board is not our GM, cause any fool would trade what will be a 6th year back for a 1st. ESPECIALLY in a no cap era, which it appears the league is headed for, with historicaly cheap owners.

a 6th year proven RB for a 1st round unproven rookie, I dont think so

Originally posted by SS2K8:
We need to find or train a replacement before we let him go. Who would just trade their pro bowl back without having drafted the replacement first?

Three first round picks is so many, and I don't think we're at the stage where we can get rid of our best offensive player and take on 3 first rounders and expect to make the playoffs next year. Those rookies will be drafted for crucial reasons.

All this bemoaning of Sing, Raye, and Scotty (myself included) because progress is slow coming, but we need continuity, and all this...but we can just trade away Frank and hope we draft a Chris Johnson and not a Reggie Bush, you know, in between needing offensive linemen and pass rushers and a new safety and possibly a new quarterback. That won't set us back or nothing.

If we even get a first rounder for a guy with injury issues, what kind of offensive tackle or pass rusher are they gonna package in with that. Probably closer to Tully Banta-Cant than Julius Peppers.

It's not like we're in cap hell that we need to do a deal for Frank. The deal would have to be lopsided as hell for it to make sense for us. We get rid of him and now we have to look for possibly two runningbacks, unless everybody is sold on Coffee as a changeup back in which case my whole argument just blows up.

The teams that would do this deal are probably playoff teams who already have another RB and would be gambling on Frank pushing them over the top and could give up a low first and have the depth to give us a player. The problem is most of those teams would probably rather use that low first rounder on a fresh new RB or they already have 2 backs. Younger teams will not give up top 15 picks for Frank.

And if we want to buy ourselves a star back, how often do they hit the market in their prime? A lot easier to buy great offensive linemen in their prime than great runningbacks. The spread offense and terrible Oline does not make me want to trade a ridiculous offensive threat for a chance at Balmer's twin.

Get outside the box. Of course we wouldn't draft 3 first rounders next year. We could trade frank for a 2011 1st round pick. Or say we did have three. It is not hard to move a late round pick for extra 2nd or 3rd rounders or for a future 1st rounder. You ask what team would deal a good back with no replacement? How about Dallas when they moved Walker or SF when we moved Craig?

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:
I dont understand why people say Frank Gore is old he is 26 years old everybody knows the magic number for RBs is 30, he is still in his prime

Ladanian Tomlinsons best year was when he was 27

Shaun Alexander best years was when he was 27,28


Jim Browns had 1800 yards when he was 27

Frank Gore is in his prime the 9ers would be very foolish to trade Frank Gore


Yes the 9ers need to incorporate the spread offense but to totally go 100 percent spread is jsut stupid, you need a Running game especially in the playoffs

I think most people are saying he is the oldest of the talent positions. I.e. he will be old sooner than others on the team, both in real and "running back years" I think most people also agree that Frank is in his Prime. At 26 he is worth a 1st Rd. pick and perhaps a bit more. That's why the talk. He likely won't have the same value when he is 28. So the question is can the sum of all the parts improve at the expense of one of the most talented players? It's a team game and if you can upgrade the line you can run the ball with a lesser back than Frank Gore. That's the theory anyway.

I understand that but if you trade Frank Gore, your not gonna trade him for another RB, like you said it may be for an Olineman or a safety or whatever. Say we do trade him for an o linemen, then what Glen Coffee is not the answer at RB, why trade Frank Gore for a unproven 1st RD pick, what if that pick ends up being a bust?

Now correct me if im wrong but havent Frank Gores injuries since he has been in the NFL been his shoulder and his ankle, i dont recall him having a knee injury in the NFL, i know in college he had some


It may be jsut the homer in me, but i dont see any scenario in which trading Frank Gore makes the 9ers a better team

Well I will agree that there is no "apparent" scenario which makes the 49ers better. But just look at the Hershel Walker deal or the pats in recent years. Truth is we already have two first round picks next year so if there is a linemen hopefully we'll get one or maybe two. As good as our defense is we could stand to upgrade/shore up the secondary and we don't have a "dominant" pass rusher. So we could really go anywhere in the draft. But our greatest need is probably O Line. But just look at the Pats current model. If we could say get an extra pick in the 2011 draft or in this years 2010 draft then we will have to flexibility to trade up for a dominant player in any draft or pay forward to the next years first round while stocking up on needed talent in the second and third rounds of the draft. Also, if there is ONE position that teams seem to be able to draft with considerable consistancy and success I would have to argue that it is the RB position. Every year there is a new crop of young and talented guys who are scooped up in the draft. Gore is a perfect example of the ability to find a quality guy outside of the first round. So it's not outside of imaginiation that Gore could be "parlayed" into some positions of "greater need" and then we just find another back out there.

Nicely put VA. Frank is one of my favorites, but there is no room for sentiment in the NFL. I am glad that 50+% of this board is not our GM, cause any fool would trade what will be a 6th year back for a 1st. ESPECIALLY in a no cap era, which it appears the league is headed for, with historicaly cheap owners.

a 6th year proven RB for a 1st round unproven rookie, I dont think so

A GM will make that trade every time, and if they don't they are a fool. Try looking up the average length of a RB's career. Next look at the age of the very best RB's in the league. Then look at the rapid decline of guys like Shaun Alexander, Larry Johnson, Ladanian Tomlinson etc.

VERY good RB's are a dime a dozen. I garantee EVERY GM worth their weight makes that trade, for a 1st......I also guarantee that every GM worth their weight would never make that offer, Frank for their 1st.

Originally posted by valrod33:
Gore is the answer for any offensive system


http://blog.pressdemocrat.com/49ers/2009/12/gore-is-the-answer-for-any-offensive-system.html

If my team were running the spread - or anything else - I'd take Gore over Addai. Gore missed three games with injuries this season. Addai has played every game. Gore has 877 yards from scrimmage, including 234 yards receiving. Addai has 839 yards from scrimmage, including 256 yards receiving.



Gore caught 61 passes in 2006; 53 in 2007; and 43 a year ago. He is an accomplished receiver out of the backfield. He gained more than 1,000 yards rushing each of those seasons - the first player in 49ers history to accomplish that feat.

Gore will have to do some offseason work on his explosiveness, he needs to be quicker out of his stance to run effectively from the spread, this is not a hard thing for an athlete to do, he can and will get more explosive out of his stance in the offseason, he is a hard worker.... now if we can just get our O-line to be more explosive out of their stances....

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by valrod33:
I dont understand why people say Frank Gore is old he is 26 years old everybody knows the magic number for RBs is 30, he is still in his prime

Ladanian Tomlinsons best year was when he was 27

Shaun Alexander best years was when he was 27,28


Jim Browns had 1800 yards when he was 27

Frank Gore is in his prime the 9ers would be very foolish to trade Frank Gore


Yes the 9ers need to incorporate the spread offense but to totally go 100 percent spread is jsut stupid, you need a Running game especially in the playoffs

I think most people are saying he is the oldest of the talent positions. I.e. he will be old sooner than others on the team, both in real and "running back years" I think most people also agree that Frank is in his Prime. At 26 he is worth a 1st Rd. pick and perhaps a bit more. That's why the talk. He likely won't have the same value when he is 28. So the question is can the sum of all the parts improve at the expense of one of the most talented players? It's a team game and if you can upgrade the line you can run the ball with a lesser back than Frank Gore. That's the theory anyway.

I understand that but if you trade Frank Gore, your not gonna trade him for another RB, like you said it may be for an Olineman or a safety or whatever. Say we do trade him for an o linemen, then what Glen Coffee is not the answer at RB, why trade Frank Gore for a unproven 1st RD pick, what if that pick ends up being a bust?

Now correct me if im wrong but havent Frank Gores injuries since he has been in the NFL been his shoulder and his ankle, i dont recall him having a knee injury in the NFL, i know in college he had some


It may be jsut the homer in me, but i dont see any scenario in which trading Frank Gore makes the 9ers a better team

Well I will agree that there is no "apparent" scenario which makes the 49ers better. But just look at the Hershel Walker deal or the pats in recent years. Truth is we already have two first round picks next year so if there is a linemen hopefully we'll get one or maybe two. As good as our defense is we could stand to upgrade/shore up the secondary and we don't have a "dominant" pass rusher. So we could really go anywhere in the draft. But our greatest need is probably O Line. But just look at the Pats current model. If we could say get an extra pick in the 2011 draft or in this years 2010 draft then we will have to flexibility to trade up for a dominant player in any draft or pay forward to the next years first round while stocking up on needed talent in the second and third rounds of the draft. Also, if there is ONE position that teams seem to be able to draft with considerable consistancy and success I would have to argue that it is the RB position. Every year there is a new crop of young and talented guys who are scooped up in the draft. Gore is a perfect example of the ability to find a quality guy outside of the first round. So it's not outside of imaginiation that Gore could be "parlayed" into some positions of "greater need" and then we just find another back out there.

Nicely put VA. Frank is one of my favorites, but there is no room for sentiment in the NFL. I am glad that 50+% of this board is not our GM, cause any fool would trade what will be a 6th year back for a 1st. ESPECIALLY in a no cap era, which it appears the league is headed for, with historicaly cheap owners.

a 6th year proven RB for a 1st round unproven rookie, I dont think so

A GM will make that trade every time, and if they don't they are a fool. Try looking up the average length of a RB's career. Next look at the age of the very best RB's in the league. Then look at the rapid decline of guys like Shaun Alexander, Larry Johnson, Ladanian Tomlinson etc.

VERY good RB's are a dime a dozen. I garantee EVERY GM worth their weight makes that trade, for a 1st......I also guarantee that every GM worth their weight would never make that offer, Frank for their 1st.

Then look at the rapid decline of guys like Shaun Alexander, Larry Johnson, Ladanian Tomlinson etc.


Their rapid decline started when they were 30, which everyone knows is when RBs start to go bad, FranK Gore is only 26.

Look up LT, Shaun ALexander and Larry Johnson stats when they were 26-27-28, thats when they put up their best numbers, that was their prime.

I believe Frank Gore is the prime of his career, no way in hell would i trade him for an unproven 1st round draft pick, Maybe wehn Frank turns 30 i woudl trade him, but right now would just be plain stupid

Since Frank Gore is still the only true threat in this offense, the only way I trade his is to get another true threat. The only exchange then is a quarterback who would allow the 49ers to fully utilize Crabtree and Davis, and help Morgan and Jason Hill develop. So here is my list of quarterbacks that would fit that description. I will discount Peyton and Brady, since they obviously would not be available, nor would Brees.

In order of my preference;

1. Carson Palmer - makes all the throws, tough guy, leader.

2. Matt Ryan - best upside of current young group

3. Matt Schaub - has quietly established himself

4. Joe Flacco - all the physical tools and would be very good in a passing offense.

5. Aaron Rogers - though he has a high rating currently, I am not convinced of his leadership.

6. Big Ben - isn't available but I would put him here. He is far too stubborn about "keeping the play" alive and absorbs far too much punishment as a result.

I wouldn't trade Frank Gore for any other QBs.

The problem isn't Gore. The problem is a poorly conceived running game, both from the I-formation and the spread. Get a quality OC with the knowledge to utilyze both Gore's talents and Smith's, and Gore will return to All Pro status.

Originally posted by VA49er:

Originally posted by SS2K8:
We need to find or train a replacement before we let him go. Who would just trade their pro bowl back without having drafted the replacement first?

Three first round picks is so many, and I don't think we're at the stage where we can get rid of our best offensive player and take on 3 first rounders and expect to make the playoffs next year. Those rookies will be drafted for crucial reasons.

All this bemoaning of Sing, Raye, and Scotty (myself included) because progress is slow coming, but we need continuity, and all this...but we can just trade away Frank and hope we draft a Chris Johnson and not a Reggie Bush, you know, in between needing offensive linemen and pass rushers and a new safety and possibly a new quarterback. That won't set us back or nothing.

If we even get a first rounder for a guy with injury issues, what kind of offensive tackle or pass rusher are they gonna package in with that. Probably closer to Tully Banta-Cant than Julius Peppers.

It's not like we're in cap hell that we need to do a deal for Frank. The deal would have to be lopsided as hell for it to make sense for us. We get rid of him and now we have to look for possibly two runningbacks, unless everybody is sold on Coffee as a changeup back in which case my whole argument just blows up.

The teams that would do this deal are probably playoff teams who already have another RB and would be gambling on Frank pushing them over the top and could give up a low first and have the depth to give us a player. The problem is most of those teams would probably rather use that low first rounder on a fresh new RB or they already have 2 backs. Younger teams will not give up top 15 picks for Frank.

And if we want to buy ourselves a star back, how often do they hit the market in their prime? A lot easier to buy great offensive linemen in their prime than great runningbacks. The spread offense and terrible Oline does not make me want to trade a ridiculous offensive threat for a chance at Balmer's twin.

Get outside the box. Of course we wouldn't draft 3 first rounders next year. We could trade frank for a 2011 1st round pick. Or say we did have three. It is not hard to move a late round pick for extra 2nd or 3rd rounders or for a future 1st rounder. You ask what team would deal a good back with no replacement? How about Dallas when they moved Walker or SF when we moved Craig?

Trades from before the advent of free agency are a moot point in 2010, especially when it involves 1-15 teams with rookie qbs.

We have draft picks and cap space. If we had no other way to improve our team but to trade a player and go for it, I could see this as a definite possibility. I just think it's completely unnecessary at this point with the resources we already have on hand.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by NJNiner:
I don't know a lot about the spread offense but why can't Gore get involved in the spread? Can someone please enlighten me?

The thing is that Frank can run in the Spread from motion and option plays. It's not unthinkable that he can do so. You can run an offset formation from the Spread as well where Frank lines up to either side of the QB and then either motions out or blocks or goes screen, toss, pitch, draw or blast. Steve SHOULD know this since he's the Pro and I'm no more than the Layman here. Right?

And what's nice about having a Back that motions the Defense doesn't know WTF is coming at them more than half the time. It's why the Passing Offenses in the League are so successful at it. Look at what Shawn Payton is doing with the Saints Offense if you need a model.

Originally posted by ZRF80:
Dont you people get it ? This is Young's way of indirectly calling Smith out. I dont think he means that we should trade Gore in a literal sense. He's basically alluding to the fact that Gore cannot be as effective is the spread as he would be in the proset. And to think that we could tailor the entire offense around Alex Smith (eg spread) for the next 10 years is not reasonable in the long run. He's already alluded to that in his last article.

But of course, Steve Young is a troll, doesnt know football, and obviously has limited knowledge of the game as compared to any of us. So why even take him seriously.

Don't know why I'm doing this BUT if Steve was even halfway calling out Alex I would think that that, was the wrong way to go about it. Especially when that is so EASILY taken out of context it ain't even funny. Steve is a better speaker than that. So AAAAAAANNNNNH wrong answer. Nice try now tell em what he's won Don.

"You've won a lifetime supply of Football for..." *this is pre edited to submit to the code of conduct as agreed to by this and all posters. We reserve the right to keep this board as civil as possible. Being that this part of the conversation could be taken in the wrong manner we have deleted and edited for content. Thank you, now back to your regularly scheduled conversation*

Well anyway I'm sure that most reasonable fans have and did try to look at it that way. But he's CLEARLY talking about Frank here. Nevermind that he STILL got the touches, even though they were Pass more than Run. Thanks for playing.

~Ceadder

He clearly says that he sees no reason why Alex cant adapt to playing under center, thus making life easier for Frank to run. It's pretty much a declaration on his part that Alex NEEDS to be able to adapt to different offensive schemes to fully utilize the talent on this team. In other words, cant use the spread forever.

Ummmm that's not necessarily calling Smith out. I can see how YOU take it that he's calling Smith out but it could've also been a note of Support. It's hard to know which without the Speaker verbalizing the words spoken.

Ahhhh well you continue to read between those imaginary lines.

So did you figure out when Obama was going to hand America over to the KKK?

~Ceadder

I would trade anybody on this team if the price was right. You have to figure that this team with these players have never won, so that makes anybody expendable.

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by Jersey9er:
Well im a Frank Gore fan too. And im not gonna knock good ol stevie because he's actually a guy with some clout who's word i'd take before anyone here in the zone. As a result, i dont think trade yet, but i will see, how he finishes the rest of the season, and maybe in the offseason, we can actually train with the spread, and adding tons of plays for Gore.

I mean it's not identical, but similar to the offense we ran in 06. Where he ran for 1695. If he was so effective then, why isnt he soo much now. The line is bad, but in the past few weeks, he just couldnt make that sharp cut, or avoid a certain tackle. It's funny even when i play Gore on Madden, my only success is running straight at the opposing defense.

I say if we go more to a spread offense, then we are gonna need guys who can run almost sideline to sideline and hit the hole running when one opens. I say one more season. If not then it may be time to look elsewhere.

Bruh, you cannot say that you won't listen to anyone on the Zone and then bring out a Madden reference.

I agree that most people are not well versed on the intracies of Football. But not all of us are so limited in knowledge that we don't know what we are talking about.

~Ceadder

Big C, was a figure of speech bruh:) I have to listen to a few on the zone, how else will i respond when the haters come out hatin, lol. I just mean that just because we dont agree with what Steve says doesnt mean he's wrong. Im saying if anything, i'd take his observation with more merit on a situation before a zoners, because his opinion is not biased. He's looking at the team as a whole.

As opposed to those that talk about, oh yeah i re-watched the game and this is what i saw. LOL. ( i love those threads by the way.) s**t Gore did well in 06 with a similar offense, thats why i say, theres gotta be another reason he's not producing.

My bad Bruh, just tired of seeing the same excuse from alot of people.

"So an so is an expert therefore I'm going to listen to them and dismiss anyone on the Zone".

That gets rather annoying and whether intended or not seems to insult the intelligence of some people.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by valrod33:
I dont understand why people say Frank Gore is old he is 26 years old everybody knows the magic number for RBs is 30, he is still in his prime

Ladanian Tomlinsons best year was when he was 27

Shaun Alexander best years was when he was 27,28


Jim Browns had 1800 yards when he was 27

Frank Gore is in his prime the 9ers would be very foolish to trade Frank Gore


Yes the 9ers need to incorporate the spread offense but to totally go 100 percent spread is jsut stupid, you need a Running game especially in the playoffs

Actually it was when he was 29. Played one more season then they got rid of him because of his foot injury and the uncertainty of his future durability. I'm up here in Shattle territory so I got to see it first hand.

~Ceadder