Second Quarter
21st Play: Good blocking safety makes the play gain of 6
22nd Play: Davis blocking the RE not as aggressive as he should of been RE makes the play 2 yard gain
23rd Play: Pass Great protection
24th Play: safeties come up Snyder not so good blocking there
25th Play: Pass Heitmann tossed back like a doll, Baas comes to help but the pressure was there, Pass to Ryan WTF
26th Play: Pass RE loops behind the DT Heitmann like I said earlier never looks to his left. Baas was blocking the RDT. Staley tried to come around but Heitmann didn't block anyone and kept looking left. Chilo and Snyder had good blocks. Heitmann HAS TO LOOK LEFT. SACK R. Denney
27th Play: Pass Good protection Gore swings out right 5 yard gain
28th Play: Shovel pass DT lined up side to side. Heitmann knocked to the ground. Chilo took out the LDT Baas was pulling but because Heitmann got OWNED by the RDT he couldn't get out in front to get the LE
29th Play: Pass IS IT A FUMBLE? NO! Good protection Ziegler needs to make that catch
30th Play: Pass Decent protection, Hill threw a duck to Hill for 7 yards
31st Play: Pass Chilo lets the DT go for some reason WTF Hill threw it up to Ziegler no chance, Ziegler became the defender
32nd Play: Heitmann one hops it to Hill while in shotgun Snyder bad protection, guy runs around him but Hill just picks it up and runs to get something out of this broken play
33rd Play: Nedney 51 tard FG good
End on 2nd Quarter
[ Edited by WildTurkey on Dec 2, 2008 at 05:24:15 ]
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Eric Heitmann is a Good Football Player
Dec 2, 2008 at 4:23 AM
- WildTurkey
- Info N/A
Dec 2, 2008 at 4:52 AM
- WildTurkey
- Info N/A
Third Quarter
34th Play: Heitmann went to chop the second level and missed. Chilo didn't finish his block his guy got the tackle 2 yards
35th Play: Run Gore fumbled Staleys guy put his hand out. Gore had room
36th Play: Pass LE and LDT cross Chilo adjusted Snyder did not. Massive pressure Hills throws ball away
37th Play: Pass Good protection First Down
38th Play: Pass Good protection but pass batted down
39th Play: Quick pass Good protection
40th Play: Pass Swing pass, good protection but Hill needs to throw that swing pass earlier. Got the first down but if he would of got rid of it sooner it would of been a big gain
41st Play: Pass good protection TD Davis called back for pushing off, Bills defender shielding and not looking back is also a penalty thats why Davis pushed. Play should of had off setting calls
42nd Play: Pass Good protection
43rd Play: Pass quick slant, Good protection Bills blitz but Hill throws it way behind Johnson. If the pass was on target it would of been Johnson vs the CB could of been a big play
44th Play: Pass, Bills bring the house more rushers then blockers PI on the defense on the slant pass
45th Play: Run to the right. Everyone had a man but no hole. Lots of room left Gore took to long to read that
46th Play: Run left for 6 yards LE makes tackle 6 yards down field
47th Play: Run same exact play as when Chilo did it. Baas pulls to the left CB dive Baas dives so he won't trip Gore. Gore trips on Baas' foot. Would of been a 1st down and a gain of 4 but Gore fumbles. Everyone did the right thing. Only wrong thing was Gore didn't hold on to the ball
End of 3rd Quarter
48th Play: 12 yard run can't hate or criticism there
49th Play: Fumbled snap
50th Play: Pass Protection was ok Hill didn't come up into the pocket sack by R. Denney was being blocked by Bajema
51st Play: Baas pulled and hit the LB Heitmann WTF made contact then fell down. His guy made the tackle no gain/loss of 1. Punt
52nd Play: Pitch left Heitmann goes to the second level and whiffs on the LB. He then goes on to make the tackle 2 yard gain
53rd Play: Run left Bajema Whiffs on the Safty that came up and he makes the tackle 4 yard gain
54th Play: Pass Good protection the line pushes everyone to the left Hill comes over to the right. Good pass 1st down
55th Play: Run right. Our FB sucks 2 yard gain Baas hit the LB on his pull
56th Play: End around no one was fooled. No lineman at fault
57th Play: Pass Guy runs around Snyder his guy got the sack. Heitmann didn't block anyone but it didn't really matter
Knees from here on out
End of Game
[ Edited by WildTurkey on Dec 2, 2008 at 05:26:12 ]
34th Play: Heitmann went to chop the second level and missed. Chilo didn't finish his block his guy got the tackle 2 yards
35th Play: Run Gore fumbled Staleys guy put his hand out. Gore had room
36th Play: Pass LE and LDT cross Chilo adjusted Snyder did not. Massive pressure Hills throws ball away
37th Play: Pass Good protection First Down
38th Play: Pass Good protection but pass batted down
39th Play: Quick pass Good protection
40th Play: Pass Swing pass, good protection but Hill needs to throw that swing pass earlier. Got the first down but if he would of got rid of it sooner it would of been a big gain
41st Play: Pass good protection TD Davis called back for pushing off, Bills defender shielding and not looking back is also a penalty thats why Davis pushed. Play should of had off setting calls
42nd Play: Pass Good protection
43rd Play: Pass quick slant, Good protection Bills blitz but Hill throws it way behind Johnson. If the pass was on target it would of been Johnson vs the CB could of been a big play
44th Play: Pass, Bills bring the house more rushers then blockers PI on the defense on the slant pass
45th Play: Run to the right. Everyone had a man but no hole. Lots of room left Gore took to long to read that
46th Play: Run left for 6 yards LE makes tackle 6 yards down field
47th Play: Run same exact play as when Chilo did it. Baas pulls to the left CB dive Baas dives so he won't trip Gore. Gore trips on Baas' foot. Would of been a 1st down and a gain of 4 but Gore fumbles. Everyone did the right thing. Only wrong thing was Gore didn't hold on to the ball
End of 3rd Quarter
48th Play: 12 yard run can't hate or criticism there
49th Play: Fumbled snap
50th Play: Pass Protection was ok Hill didn't come up into the pocket sack by R. Denney was being blocked by Bajema
51st Play: Baas pulled and hit the LB Heitmann WTF made contact then fell down. His guy made the tackle no gain/loss of 1. Punt
52nd Play: Pitch left Heitmann goes to the second level and whiffs on the LB. He then goes on to make the tackle 2 yard gain
53rd Play: Run left Bajema Whiffs on the Safty that came up and he makes the tackle 4 yard gain
54th Play: Pass Good protection the line pushes everyone to the left Hill comes over to the right. Good pass 1st down
55th Play: Run right. Our FB sucks 2 yard gain Baas hit the LB on his pull
56th Play: End around no one was fooled. No lineman at fault
57th Play: Pass Guy runs around Snyder his guy got the sack. Heitmann didn't block anyone but it didn't really matter
Knees from here on out
End of Game
[ Edited by WildTurkey on Dec 2, 2008 at 05:26:12 ]
Dec 2, 2008 at 5:47 AM
- WildTurkey
- Info N/A
Originally posted by MadDog49er:Originally posted by WildTurkey:One brave soul. Outstanding.Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Here is where the lack of football knowledge kills people's argument.
Prepare to be slaughtered.
But before the carcass of the critics becomes exposed, someone please tell me what Heitmann's primary run responsibility was in this game.
If you get this correct, you get a free toaster.
Once again, prepare for the slaughgter.
P.S. I did not bring up this topic again, it was the critics.
I will give my evaluation soon, as soon as one of the critics comes up with his primary run responsibility in game. I expect less than two critics will get it right. They will backtrack on their argument, trust me.
No, they will come up with a "the defender is not good" argument.
Good luck. Any takers?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will give my breakdown of Heitmann, the good, bad, and ugly.
Isn't it interesting that about 20% of the critics spell his name correctly? The other 80% sure can make a lot of noise, but cannot spell his name right.
Depending on the line up
But it is either block down on the DT or get down field and block the second level (MLB)
DTs = 5 tackles 4 solo
MLB = 4 tackles 2 solo
or we can even go before that and say get the ball safely to the QB which we saw how that went.
or we can go before the snap. The center needs to identify the defense formation. Call the strong side of the defense and adjust the lineman accordingly.
or we can go to the simple basic natural football instincts and just HIT SOMEONE
Heitmann's primary responsibility in this game was MLB Paul Pozluszny. The Niners game planned to take Pos out of the game, and Heitmann released on about half of the snaps in the game.
The tally: Pos finished with 2 solo tackles and 2 assisted. Only 1 tackle and 1 assisted was done with him matched up with Heitmann, and the only solo happened 5 yards down the field in the first quarter, as he was falling.
To compare the two MLB's: Willis finished with 10 solo, 4 assisted, and one forced fumble. While I will never say that Pos is as talented as Willis, the discrepancy really showed that Heitmann did his job, and did it well.
Here is what was said about Pos before the game:
Second-year linebacker Paul Posluszny has emerged as a solid player at the MIKE, currently leading the Bills in tackles with 76 stops, and one forced fumble.
Pregame article on the Bills and Posluszny
Heitmann did not allow one pressure in the passing game, something that cannot be said about any other lineman on our team.
Heitmann's worst two plays in the game were the low snap, which Hill handled, and the block on Williams on the 3rd and 22 play.
I encourage the board to watch the tape. The tape never lies.
Heitmann did his job, and had a very good game. Posluszny finished 8th on their team in tackles today.
Since we want to discuss how "poorly" Heitmann played today, let's not forget that the two defense ends had 5 solo, 2 assisted, and a sack (Kelsey), and the other had 4 solos, 2 assisted, 2 sacks, and one forced fumble (Denney).
P.S. One of the posters on this board and thread, listed, in his opinion, the teams with better centers around the league. He included the Bills' center, who was Duke Preston. Preston replaced the ineffective Melvin Fowler for this game. Preston had one early snap, had one false start, and allowed at least 3 pressures.
Nice analysis.
cough
1st Play: LE outside of TE LDT on Guard RDT shade shade to Heitmanns left RE outside of Staley. Run play, Baas comes down on the RDT Heitmann was supposed to shade off to the second level but was not able too. Davis took the LE out of the play. Snyder gets the Safty who came down on the play. Chilo gets the LDT. FB gets the guy Heitmann was supposed too. Staley started on the RE but the ROLB shot the Gap. The FB should of gone to the ROLB but with the MLB sitting there he couldn't look anywhere else. Staley was left with a dam if you do dam if you don't moment. 3 yard gain
2nd Play: Defense same. TE on the O's right.Staley takes out the RE Baas takes out the ROLB Chilo pulls and kills the RDT Snyder does a GREAT job of turning the LDT away from the play, Davis got the S Bajema gets the LOLB who follows him on the motion Heitmann got a hand on the MLB but that was it, he makes the tackle. If Heitmann makes the block it's Gore one on one with a the other S. gain of 5
5th Play: this is taking a long time so im just ganna narrow down everything. Chilo and Heitmann pull. Chilo kills his guy Heitmann runs by a Bill and he makes the tackle. Snyder made the initial contact, it's on him but Heitmann who was pulling should of hit him. Why because he was the first Blue jersey there
8th Play: Run left Baas hits and slides to the second level Heitmann brushed off and that DT makes the play. Gore probably should of bounced outside.
11th Play: Pitch right, Two TE right Heitmann and Snyder pull. Heitmann doesn't hit anyone. FYI our FB sucks
13th Play: RDT lines up on Heitmann, He should of chipped him to give Baas a chance. Instead he hits the LDT and throws Snyder off. The RDT gets in the backfield Gore tries to run outside but to no avail. If Heitmann hits the RDT, possible TD since no safties deep. Gore cuts right no one there
25th Play: Pass Heitmann tossed back like a doll, Baas comes to help but the pressure was there, Pass to Ryan WTF
26th Play: Pass RE loops behind the DT Heitmann like I said earlier never looks to his left. Baas was blocking the RDT. Staley tried to come around but Heitmann didn't block anyone and kept looking left. Chilo and Snyder had good blocks. Heitmann HAS TO LOOK LEFT. SACK R. Denney
28th Play: Shovel pass DT lined up side to side. Heitmann knocked to the ground. Chilo took out the LDT Baas was pulling but because Heitmann got OWNED by the RDT he couldn't get out in front to get the LE
32nd Play: Heitmann one hops it to Hill while in shotgun Snyder bad protection, guy runs around him but Hill just picks it up and runs to get something out of this broken play
34th Play: Heitmann went to chop the second level and missed. Chilo didn't finish his block his guy got the tackle 2 yards
51st Play: Baas pulled and hit the LB Heitmann WTF made contact then fell down. His guy made the tackle no gain/loss of 1. Punt
52nd Play: Pitch left Heitmann goes to the second level and whiffs on the LB. He then goes on to make the tackle 2 yard gain
cough
like you said tapes don't lie
Maybe you should take your own advise and start looking at the tapes and not the stats and where people line up pre snap
Dec 2, 2008 at 6:12 AM
- Bluefalcon61
- Veteran
- Posts: 46,584
Famtastic, Wild Turkey!!
(This is inspiring me to go back to the DVR and look at each play)
Looks pretty ugly on Heitmann - at least for that game.
Ok MadDog, can you interprete the same plays from your eyes?
(This is inspiring me to go back to the DVR and look at each play)
Looks pretty ugly on Heitmann - at least for that game.
Ok MadDog, can you interprete the same plays from your eyes?
Dec 2, 2008 at 7:14 AM
- qnnhan7
- Veteran
- Posts: 34,157
Boy, I appreciated the effort, time, and space of these in depth posts have to offer, but can we just go back to the 'Heitman good' and 'Heitman sucks' variety.
Dec 2, 2008 at 9:03 AM
- dj43
- Moderator
- Posts: 35,666
I'll bet Heitmann sure wishes Alex Smith was the starter again so the 'zone would have someone else to rag on.
Dec 2, 2008 at 11:19 AM
- oldninerdude
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,330
Originally posted by WildTurkey:Originally posted by MadDog49er:Originally posted by WildTurkey:One brave soul. Outstanding.Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Here is where the lack of football knowledge kills people's argument.
Prepare to be slaughtered.
But before the carcass of the critics becomes exposed, someone please tell me what Heitmann's primary run responsibility was in this game.
If you get this correct, you get a free toaster.
Once again, prepare for the slaughgter.
P.S. I did not bring up this topic again, it was the critics.
I will give my evaluation soon, as soon as one of the critics comes up with his primary run responsibility in game. I expect less than two critics will get it right. They will backtrack on their argument, trust me.
No, they will come up with a "the defender is not good" argument.
Good luck. Any takers?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will give my breakdown of Heitmann, the good, bad, and ugly.
Isn't it interesting that about 20% of the critics spell his name correctly? The other 80% sure can make a lot of noise, but cannot spell his name right.
Depending on the line up
But it is either block down on the DT or get down field and block the second level (MLB)
DTs = 5 tackles 4 solo
MLB = 4 tackles 2 solo
or we can even go before that and say get the ball safely to the QB which we saw how that went.
or we can go before the snap. The center needs to identify the defense formation. Call the strong side of the defense and adjust the lineman accordingly.
or we can go to the simple basic natural football instincts and just HIT SOMEONE
Heitmann's primary responsibility in this game was MLB Paul Pozluszny.
Heitmann did not allow one pressure in the passing game, something that cannot be said about any other lineman on our team.
Heitmann's worst two plays in the game were the low snap, which Hill handled, and the block on Williams on the 3rd and 22 play.
I encourage the board to watch the tape. The tape never lies.
cough
1st Play: LE outside of TE LDT on Guard RDT shade shade to Heitmanns left RE outside of Staley. Run play, Baas comes down on the RDT Heitmann was supposed to shade off to the second level but was not able too. Davis took the LE out of the play. Snyder gets the Safty who came down on the play. Chilo gets the LDT. FB gets the guy Heitmann was supposed too. Staley started on the RE but the ROLB shot the Gap. The FB should of gone to the ROLB but with the MLB sitting there he couldn't look anywhere else. Staley was left with a dam if you do dam if you don't moment. 3 yard gain
2nd Play: Defense same. TE on the O's right.Staley takes out the RE Baas takes out the ROLB Chilo pulls and kills the RDT Snyder does a GREAT job of turning the LDT away from the play, Davis got the S Bajema gets the LOLB who follows him on the motion Heitmann got a hand on the MLB but that was it, he makes the tackle. If Heitmann makes the block it's Gore one on one with a the other S. gain of 5
5th Play: this is taking a long time so im just ganna narrow down everything. Chilo and Heitmann pull. Chilo kills his guy Heitmann runs by a Bill and he makes the tackle. Snyder made the initial contact, it's on him but Heitmann who was pulling should of hit him. Why because he was the first Blue jersey there
8th Play: Run left Baas hits and slides to the second level Heitmann brushed off and that DT makes the play. Gore probably should of bounced outside.
11th Play: Pitch right, Two TE right Heitmann and Snyder pull. Heitmann doesn't hit anyone. FYI our FB sucks
13th Play: RDT lines up on Heitmann, He should of chipped him to give Baas a chance. Instead he hits the LDT and throws Snyder off. The RDT gets in the backfield Gore tries to run outside but to no avail. If Heitmann hits the RDT, possible TD since no safties deep. Gore cuts right no one there
25th Play: Pass Heitmann tossed back like a doll, Baas comes to help but the pressure was there, Pass to Ryan WTF
26th Play: Pass RE loops behind the DT Heitmann like I said earlier never looks to his left. Baas was blocking the RDT. Staley tried to come around but Heitmann didn't block anyone and kept looking left. Chilo and Snyder had good blocks. Heitmann HAS TO LOOK LEFT. SACK R. Denney
28th Play: Shovel pass DT lined up side to side. Heitmann knocked to the ground. Chilo took out the LDT Baas was pulling but because Heitmann got OWNED by the RDT he couldn't get out in front to get the LE
32nd Play: Heitmann one hops it to Hill while in shotgun Snyder bad protection, guy runs around him but Hill just picks it up and runs to get something out of this broken play
34th Play: Heitmann went to chop the second level and missed. Chilo didn't finish his block his guy got the tackle 2 yards
51st Play: Baas pulled and hit the LB Heitmann WTF made contact then fell down. His guy made the tackle no gain/loss of 1. Punt
52nd Play: Pitch left Heitmann goes to the second level and whiffs on the LB. He then goes on to make the tackle 2 yard gain
cough
like you said tapes don't lie
Maybe you should take your own advise and start looking at the tapes and not the stats and where people line up pre snap
Although personally, I tended to side with the pro-Heitmann crowd, I have to say, this analysis by Wild Turkey is very persuasive--and may offer some explanation for the struggles our running game has experienced, both on short yardage situations and in other runs up the middle.
And MadDog, may I just say: "pwnd." And by a "noob"!
However, to the extent your "analysis" encouraged another poster to actually do the research, watch the tapes, and give us a play by play, objective description, it was worth it.
[ Edited by oldninerdude on Dec 2, 2008 at 11:23:10 ]
Dec 2, 2008 at 11:46 AM
- oldninerdude
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,330
Originally posted by WildTurkey:
Your argument is weak
weaker then Heitmann. You are going to make me do a play by play breakdown of Heitmann to prove to you he isn't good. Then you will come back with another weak argument. But i guest I will have to. I'll do it when I get home.
I still don't understand how you can say any OL had a good game when Gore only 68 yards and a 2.8 average when you yourself said we run up the middle 59% of the time.
FYI this argument isn't whether Heitmann is the best lineman we have. It is whether he is good or not. So bringing up other players flaws doesn't make Heitmann any better. It just proves what we already know, that our OL sucks. Heitmann included. Being the best lineman in a terrible OL doesn't mean your good. It only means your not the worst. But i think most people will take the 4 years and under players who can still improve over the 7+ years vet who hasn't been the same since his injury and is just declining.
Okay, so let's say I'm persuaded that the Oline is in dire need of improvement. Where would you start? Heitmann? He's the leader, the captain, and based on your analysis, above, frequently misses his assignment. Would you replace him first? If so, with whom would you replace him? Wragge? Wallace? Baas?
The team has had experience, in the past, with Wragge at center, and they've played relatively well--if my memory is correct. You think he might be an upgrade at center?
Dec 2, 2008 at 11:52 AM
- pasodoc9er
- Veteran
- Posts: 21,009
Man, wildturkey, helluva job. i quit doing that 6 games ago, just because it was so dam depressing. i NEVER took the time to post it all tho, and this was a true work of love on your part. You're right, tapes don't lie. Like i posted after previous week's loss when Dog wrote out how he saw Heitmann play, well, maybe heitmann is a good player, but he ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH. Last 2 games i took no notes, did not tape either game, and just sat and watched for a change. My comment was the OL and heitmann in particular, maybe playing at professional level, but the play just isn't good enough. Hell, we won this game, and the OL, esp heitmann, looked poor. Your breakdown was really welcomed by those of us who have the interest, as well as those who don't. Frankly, 6 weeks ago, i couldn't bring myself to break down any more OL plays, because it was just so horrid.
Two things come thru here, on your astute notes and breakdown. Heitmann is not the answer at C (unfortunately with a new contract), and secondly, we miss having a true professional OL coach. It is and HAS killed us. Once mc Kittrick got sick and passed away, we really lost a genius. Our OL coaching since then has been inexcusable. Rereading your breakdown, every one of those screw ups should be tattooed on somebody's forehead. i wonder if they are. Actually , i wonder if anyone is even looking at OL play like this. If not, they ought to hire you to break it down for them. Maybe "heitmann is a good football player" will be put to rest after this.
Two things come thru here, on your astute notes and breakdown. Heitmann is not the answer at C (unfortunately with a new contract), and secondly, we miss having a true professional OL coach. It is and HAS killed us. Once mc Kittrick got sick and passed away, we really lost a genius. Our OL coaching since then has been inexcusable. Rereading your breakdown, every one of those screw ups should be tattooed on somebody's forehead. i wonder if they are. Actually , i wonder if anyone is even looking at OL play like this. If not, they ought to hire you to break it down for them. Maybe "heitmann is a good football player" will be put to rest after this.
Dec 2, 2008 at 12:04 PM
- itlynstalyn
- Veteran
- Posts: 38,520
Awesome post, it's nice to see actual fact instead of conjecture and opinion on the Heitmann situation. Someone isn't good just because other people say he is.
Dec 2, 2008 at 12:33 PM
- 49erfeeeever808
- Veteran
- Posts: 31,326
Originally posted by oldninerdude:Originally posted by WildTurkey:
Your argument is weak
weaker then Heitmann. You are going to make me do a play by play breakdown of Heitmann to prove to you he isn't good. Then you will come back with another weak argument. But i guest I will have to. I'll do it when I get home.
I still don't understand how you can say any OL had a good game when Gore only 68 yards and a 2.8 average when you yourself said we run up the middle 59% of the time.
FYI this argument isn't whether Heitmann is the best lineman we have. It is whether he is good or not. So bringing up other players flaws doesn't make Heitmann any better. It just proves what we already know, that our OL sucks. Heitmann included. Being the best lineman in a terrible OL doesn't mean your good. It only means your not the worst. But i think most people will take the 4 years and under players who can still improve over the 7+ years vet who hasn't been the same since his injury and is just declining.
Okay, so let's say I'm persuaded that the Oline is in dire need of improvement. Where would you start? Heitmann? He's the leader, the captain, and based on your analysis, above, frequently misses his assignment. Would you replace him first? If so, with whom would you replace him? Wragge? Wallace? Baas?
The team has had experience, in the past, with Wragge at center, and they've played relatively well--if my memory is correct. You think he might be an upgrade at center?
Heiman is the O-Line captain only because he hasn't been Kwame Harris horrible and he's the vet of the group...... Heitman is average IMO.
i wouldn't mind seeing Baas slide over to Center (i believe he was UM's center in college) and then get a new LG. Heitman and Baas are both replaceable IMO. but i'd rather have Baas because at this point he's as good as Heitman, but has more "potentional." (that P word is ) getting a new RT is a must.
Staley (FA/rookie) Baas Rachal (FA/rookie)
or
Staley Baas (FA/rookie) Rachal (FA/rookie)
or
(FA) (FA/rookie) (Heitman/Baas) Rachal Staley
or
Staley Rachal (FA) (rookie) (FA)
.....or we could just keep the same o-line and just find a new O-Line coach......
Dec 2, 2008 at 12:52 PM
- oldninerdude
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,330
Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:Originally posted by oldninerdude:Originally posted by WildTurkey:
Your argument is weak
weaker then Heitmann. You are going to make me do a play by play breakdown of Heitmann to prove to you he isn't good. Then you will come back with another weak argument. But i guest I will have to. I'll do it when I get home.
I still don't understand how you can say any OL had a good game when Gore only 68 yards and a 2.8 average when you yourself said we run up the middle 59% of the time.
FYI this argument isn't whether Heitmann is the best lineman we have. It is whether he is good or not. So bringing up other players flaws doesn't make Heitmann any better. It just proves what we already know, that our OL sucks. Heitmann included. Being the best lineman in a terrible OL doesn't mean your good. It only means your not the worst. But i think most people will take the 4 years and under players who can still improve over the 7+ years vet who hasn't been the same since his injury and is just declining.
Okay, so let's say I'm persuaded that the Oline is in dire need of improvement. Where would you start? Heitmann? He's the leader, the captain, and based on your analysis, above, frequently misses his assignment. Would you replace him first? If so, with whom would you replace him? Wragge? Wallace? Baas?
The team has had experience, in the past, with Wragge at center, and they've played relatively well--if my memory is correct. You think he might be an upgrade at center?
Heiman is the O-Line captain only because he hasn't been Kwame Harris horrible and he's the vet of the group...... Heitman is average IMO.
i wouldn't mind seeing Baas slide over to Center (i believe he was UM's center in college) and then get a new LG. Heitman and Baas are both replaceable IMO. but i'd rather have Baas because at this point he's as good as Heitman, but has more "potentional." (that P word is ) getting a new RT is a must.
Staley (FA/rookie) Baas Rachal (FA/rookie)
or
Staley Baas (FA/rookie) Rachal (FA/rookie)
or
(FA) (FA/rookie) (Heitman/Baas) Rachal Staley
or
Staley Rachal (FA) (rookie) (FA)
.....or we could just keep the same o-line and just find a new O-Line coach......
We just got a new O line coach, when Warhop was fired along with Nolan. And the present group has not been together for long (Rachal has only started twice). However, the lack of a push on short yardage running plays has been a problem for some time, and Heitmann's lack of strength both on running plays and on pass blocking has become increasingly apparent.
I'm of the belief that Olines need time to learn to work together, and that as a group they may be better than they are as individuals. It seems obvious, however, that we need an upgrade in performance at center and at RT. Either they play better, or someone else gets a shot at their position. IMHO.
Dec 2, 2008 at 12:57 PM
- dj43
- Moderator
- Posts: 35,666
No one knows the ability of a player better than other players on the same team.
When players select a captain, they NEVER select the weakest player in the group because they know he may not stay on the field. Now that doesn't mean they pick the best player in the group either, but more often than not, it IS the best player.
In the case of Heitmann, we can marginalize him with some Kwame Harris comment but that ignores everything we know about the way players actually operate. What we CANNOT say and still maintain any modicum of credibility is to say Eric Heitmann is the weakest link in the 49er's offensive line.
When players select a captain, they NEVER select the weakest player in the group because they know he may not stay on the field. Now that doesn't mean they pick the best player in the group either, but more often than not, it IS the best player.
In the case of Heitmann, we can marginalize him with some Kwame Harris comment but that ignores everything we know about the way players actually operate. What we CANNOT say and still maintain any modicum of credibility is to say Eric Heitmann is the weakest link in the 49er's offensive line.
Dec 2, 2008 at 1:09 PM
- WildTurkey
- Info N/A
Originally posted by oldninerdude:Originally posted by WildTurkey:
Your argument is weak
weaker then Heitmann. You are going to make me do a play by play breakdown of Heitmann to prove to you he isn't good. Then you will come back with another weak argument. But i guest I will have to. I'll do it when I get home.
I still don't understand how you can say any OL had a good game when Gore only 68 yards and a 2.8 average when you yourself said we run up the middle 59% of the time.
FYI this argument isn't whether Heitmann is the best lineman we have. It is whether he is good or not. So bringing up other players flaws doesn't make Heitmann any better. It just proves what we already know, that our OL sucks. Heitmann included. Being the best lineman in a terrible OL doesn't mean your good. It only means your not the worst. But i think most people will take the 4 years and under players who can still improve over the 7+ years vet who hasn't been the same since his injury and is just declining.
Okay, so let's say I'm persuaded that the Oline is in dire need of improvement. Where would you start? Heitmann? He's the leader, the captain, and based on your analysis, above, frequently misses his assignment. Would you replace him first? If so, with whom would you replace him? Wragge? Wallace? Baas?
The team has had experience, in the past, with Wragge at center, and they've played relatively well--if my memory is correct. You think he might be an upgrade at center?
First off Wallace is not the answer. Will he be one day maybe but right now hell no.
Wragge, he is a legitimate option. While he struggled a bit at guard he shouldn't have that problem at center. He would rarely be man up on someone, but is strong enough not to be thrown back and he can hold his own. Wragge has shown he is a decent center if not better. Since Heitmanns injury he has not been the same, and every time Wragge comes is it at least appears that the run game takes off. i think it's the combination of Wragge and Baas next to each other that makes the difference. Now add another mauler in Chilo and I think that would elevate all of their play and strengths. Wragge is also a smart vet who has enough mental ability to play center.
Baas, see Wragge but with less experience at the position.
I think Heitmann should be traded in the off season to a team that has a zone blocking Line. That way he goes to a team where they can use his strengths and hide his weaknesses. Then we can move on and get a pick or upgrade at a position.
What else we need to eventually do?
Get a RT! Snyder can be a good back up but he gets killed by the speed rushers outside.
Get a real FB! one way or another, DO IT!
Dec 2, 2008 at 1:15 PM
- oldninerdude
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,330
Originally posted by dj43:
No one knows the ability of a player better than other players on the same team.
When players select a captain, they NEVER select the weakest player in the group because they know he may not stay on the field. Now that doesn't mean they pick the best player in the group either, but more often than not, it IS the best player.
In the case of Heitmann, we can marginalize him with some Kwame Harris comment but that ignores everything we know about the way players actually operate. What we CANNOT say and still maintain any modicum of credibility is to say Eric Heitmann is the weakest link in the 49er's offensive line.
He may not be the weakest link, but the position he plays is certainly crucial, perhaps the most crucial of the entire Oline--especially when it comes to making calls, etc. Center is really the anchor for the rest of the group, and naturally the position the others look to for leadership.
Heitmann seems to have the knowledge part of it down, but seems to presently lack the physical ability to execute, consistently. Maybe he needs more time in the weight room?
Frankly, I have admired his guts in the past. In the Seattle game, he was getting teed off on, every play. Due to the noise they went with the "snap when I lift my head up" count, and Seattle figured it out right away. Heitmann got clobbered every play, but didn't back down. So I give him points for having some guts. But the weakness in the middle of our Oline cannot be ignored. IMHO.