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Originally posted by ninersrule4:
I mean who else is there? Off the top off my head in no order
Manning
Brees
Brady
Wilson
Rodgers
Luck
Rivers
Ryan
Romo?
Stafford?
Newton?
Cutler?
Dalton?
I mean the first 8 are locks. After that its all preference I can see people having him in their top 10
Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
I've seen a lot of QB ranking lists that show Cam to be around 7 or so, higher than Wilson and of course Kap.
I don't get it.........sure he has nice physical tools and stats but his composure is pretty bad when the going gets tough. Whenever you think Kaepernick could have a little more poise or whatever, be grateful we don't have Cameron QBing our team. I don't think Cam as our QB could win in that Lambeau wildcard game or compete in Seattle.
Do they feel he reads defenses better? Does more with less offensive talent?
Maybe he is a better QB than one of them, but I can't see how he's better than Kap AND Wilson together at this point in time.
It's like his #1 overall status has to be justified (like Andrew Luck) while 2nd and 3rd round QBs have to prove their worth or something.
Originally posted by ads_2006:
Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
I've seen a lot of QB ranking lists that show Cam to be around 7 or so, higher than Wilson and of course Kap.
I don't get it.........sure he has nice physical tools and stats but his composure is pretty bad when the going gets tough. Whenever you think Kaepernick could have a little more poise or whatever, be grateful we don't have Cameron QBing our team. I don't think Cam as our QB could win in that Lambeau wildcard game or compete in Seattle.
Do they feel he reads defenses better? Does more with less offensive talent?
Maybe he is a better QB than one of them, but I can't see how he's better than Kap AND Wilson together at this point in time.
It's like his #1 overall status has to be justified (like Andrew Luck) while 2nd and 3rd round QBs have to prove their worth or something.
prolly the same reason we were high on Kaep past few years
WINNING
Originally posted by mr_P:
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
I mean who else is there? Off the top off my head in no order
Manning
Brees
Brady
Wilson
Rodgers
Luck
Rivers
Ryan
Romo?
Stafford?
Newton?
Cutler?
Dalton?
I mean the first 8 are locks. After that its all preference I can see people having him in their top 10
i would put derek carr ahead of a couple of those guys on that list
Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Someone on the Panthers offense needs to get credit for their offense consistently being average-above average since Newton entered the league. Their offense line sucks, Olsen was average before he got there, their RB's are average-below average (I'd take Hyde and a number of other RB's over Stewart and Deangelo Williams was always banged up and is now a backup), and they have had terrible WR's throughout Newton's career with the exception of an aged Steve Smith and a rookie last year. Newton has had bad supporting casts, but their offense moves the ball and puts up points. It's not a coincidence.
Kaepernick has not been as big of a threat running the ball - Newton has much better vision and runs between the tackles more often. Kaepernick runs into sacks a lot when he's scrambling which doesn't show up in his rushing yards. Kaepernick has had more success because he's been on a better team throughout his career. Now that the tables have turned, the 49ers look like one of the worst teams in the league. Cam has rushed for 37 TD's compared to 11 for Kaepernick and has the same number of fumbles despite playing in a lot more games, getting more carries and rushing for more than 1000 more yards. Newton has a much lower sack rate for his career despite having a worse offensive line for most of their careers.
And every GM in the league would take Newton over Kaepernick. He's highly regarded by former and current players. I don't understand your obsession with passer rating.
Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Someone on the Panthers offense needs to get credit for their offense consistently being average-above average since Newton entered the league. Their offense line sucks, Olsen was average before he got there, their RB's are average-below average (I'd take Hyde and a number of other RB's over Stewart and Deangelo Williams was always banged up and is now a backup), and they have had terrible WR's throughout Newton's career with the exception of an aged Steve Smith and a rookie last year. Newton has had bad supporting casts, but their offense moves the ball and puts up points. It's not a coincidence.
Kaepernick has not been as big of a threat running the ball - Newton has much better vision and runs between the tackles more often. Kaepernick runs into sacks a lot when he's scrambling which doesn't show up in his rushing yards. Kaepernick has had more success because he's been on a better team throughout his career. Now that the tables have turned, the 49ers look like one of the worst teams in the league. Cam has rushed for 37 TD's compared to 11 for Kaepernick and has the same number of fumbles despite playing in a lot more games, getting more carries and rushing for more than 1000 more yards. Newton has a much lower sack rate for his career despite having a worse offensive line for most of their careers.
And every GM in the league would take Newton over Kaepernick. He's highly regarded by former and current players. I don't understand your obsession with passer rating.
Passer rating, with a large enough sample size, is a good indication of how EFFICIENT a QB is. Cam is terribly inefficient.
You're EXACTLY like people who said Vince Young was a great QB a decade ago: Extremely inefficient, but that's ok because he runs a lot and his team is winning.
Originally posted by Antix:Well his team is 6-0. When a team is good its always bc of the qb. When a team sucks its always bc of the qb.
Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
I'm done with this discussion. Cam is a completely different QB than Vince Young. Newton accounts for a ton of offense (272 total YPG, 1.88 combined TD's per game) while Young averaged only 150 yards per game passing and 24 yards rushing and has a career passer rating of 74. I'm not ignoring passing rating, but unlike you, I try to take statistics in context. You're the one completely ignoring volume, team statistics, supporting cast, playing/coaching style. If your definition of efficient means a player has to have a high passer rating, then Newton is not efficient, but he has put up more yards and points throughout his career with a worse supporting cast than Kaepernick.
The core of my argument has been that the Panthers have a good offense with Newton even though Newton has a bad supporting cast and the offense was terrible before he got there. He makes the team better in ways that don't show up in passer rating by forcing teams to account for him as a runner and avoiding sacks. The Titans offense was terrible with Vince Young at QB with the exception of 2009 when Chris Johnson ran for 2000 yards.
Cam Newton is a better QB by far than Vince Young by almost any metric. He's also a better QB than Kaepernick by a number of metrics, just not the one you seem to think means everything (passer rating). Winning is overrated, but making a team better is not. Without Cam, the Panthers have a horrible offense.
Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
I'm done with this discussion. Cam is a completely different QB than Vince Young. Newton accounts for a ton of offense (272 total YPG, 1.88 combined TD's per game) while Young averaged only 150 yards per game passing and 24 yards rushing and has a career passer rating of 74. I'm not ignoring passing rating, but unlike you, I try to take statistics in context. You're the one completely ignoring volume, team statistics, supporting cast, playing/coaching style. If your definition of efficient means a player has to have a high passer rating, then Newton is not efficient, but he has put up more yards and points throughout his career with a worse supporting cast than Kaepernick.
The core of my argument has been that the Panthers have a good offense with Newton even though Newton has a bad supporting cast and the offense was terrible before he got there. He makes the team better in ways that don't show up in passer rating by forcing teams to account for him as a runner and avoiding sacks. The Titans offense was terrible with Vince Young at QB with the exception of 2009 when Chris Johnson ran for 2000 yards.
Cam Newton is a better QB by far than Vince Young by almost any metric. He's also a better QB than Kaepernick by a number of metrics, just not the one you seem to think means everything (passer rating). Winning is overrated, but making a team better is not. Without Cam, the Panthers have a horrible offense.
So your argument is based on a hypothetical you can't test. "They'd suck without him." That's not a good argument.
And his supporting cast isn't as bad s you say it is. He has a 1000-yard-receiving TE and the 5th-ranked running offense in the league (only 245 of those yards belong to Cam).
Jay Cutler had an absolutely atrocious supporting cast (mostly because of a horrendous OL) for years, and for some reason he wasn't touted as one of the best QBs in football because of it. Same with Phillip Rivers when he had 2 bad seasons.
The undeserved hype with this guy is insane.
Their line was decent/average his first 3 years. But last season the oline was a bottom 5 in the league and was getting Cam killed. Part of the problem was him not being healthy all last season. (which is why I fell like luck will bounce back). This year's oline replaced Byron bell from the 2014-2015 season at LT with Michael Oher another below average LT. The panthers oline got better because Oher, even tho still not good, was a better fit than bell and they've been getting reps together as a unit. But there line does have two studs Kahlil and Turner. But the rest are udfa and castawaysOriginally posted by communist:Not a Cam-supporter by any means but he never played as awful as Kaep last season. However, iirc, Panthers' o-line was always one of the better in the nfl during Newton's era, was it?
