There are 241 users in the forums
Oakland Raiders owner in talks with San Antonio to relocate NFL team
Jul 30, 2014 at 11:13 PM
- Dr_Bill_Walsh
- Veteran
- Posts: 20,125
Los Angeles Raiders of San Antonio
Jul 31, 2014 at 9:17 AM
- evil
- Veteran
- Posts: 45,771
Originally posted by Empire49:
I will not agree that they've had a "good" offseason, but rather an average one at best. They lost their two best players to free agency (after not even trying to retain them when they were over $60 million UNDER the cap) and they brought in a bunch of guys that were good players 4 years ago.
Let's look at their key acquisitions.
FREE AGENCY
QB Matt Schaub - the current king of the pick-6. Dude was atrocious last season, and he won't have anybody like Andre Johnson to throw to in Oakland. His situation is no better in Oakland, and is actually worse.
DE Justin Tuck - had a decent year last year after sucking the previous two. If this were 2008, it would have been a great signing.
LB Lamarr Woodley - this dude hasn't been good since 2010.
CB Tarell Brown - he was the least-feared, most tested CB on our team last year. No QB was afraid to throw at him. He would allow 3 first downs on a single drive, then break up one pass and make some stupid gesture as if he'd been shutting down the WR all game. What a joke. Very overrated.
WR James Jones - was a pretty good player with Aaron Rodgers throwing him the ball. He won't have Rodgers in Oakland. Still a decent signing.
RB Maurice Jones-Drew - hasn't been good since 2011. Can't stay healthy and is clearly on the decline. Went from one terrible team to another.
CB Carlos Rogers - do I even need to get into this guy? He was a huge liability for us the last 2 years. He won't have the pass rush that he had with us, which means he will likely fair even worse in Oakland.
DRAFT
LB Khalil Mack - this is the best acquisition they made all offseason, and he isn't even a guarantee. He could bust just like the majority of their 1st round picks for the last decade. If he pans out, it will be a great pick. However, we've all seen the way the raiders develop their potential stars, and it isn't good.
QB Derek Carr - will need time to develop, and even then he probably won't be much more than a mediocre starter. If they throw him to the wolves right away, he will wind up just like his brother, or worse.
On top of all that, their head coach doesn't know what he's doing and their GM is a joke. They will both be canned after the raiders post another pathetic record in 2014. Then, they'll have to start all over yet again.
Matt Schaub - Labeled King of the Pick 6 yet threw 14 INT's last year as compared to Eli Manning who threw 27 or Palmer and Flacco who threw 22. There were 8 starting QB's who threw more picks than he did last year. He did throw a lot of INT's in crucial situations last year but works as a stopgap/veteran mentor for the time being. He signed a 2 year deal and all the guaranteed money comes in the first year.
Justin Tuck - Had a bounce back year last year after a down year the year prior. His numbers were down in 2011-2012 however he battled injuries that year. He did show up in the playoffs though and came up with 2 sacks in the SB. Signed a 2 year 11 million dollar deal with the Raiders.
Lamar Woodley - While his last 2 years were not great in terms of numbers he signed a 2 year 12 million dollar deal. When factoring in that Tuck will kick inside on passing downs and either Moore or Mack will rush of the left edge, he could bounce back with some decent production. He provides an upgrade over what they had at the very least.
Tarrell Brown - 1 year 3.5 million. Provides depth and improves the secondary.
Carlos Rogers - 1 year 2.5 million. More depth and competition in the secondary.
MJD - 3 years 7.5 million and all his guaranteed money comes in the first year. Provides better depth behind DMC.
James Jones - Upgrades the WR core and starts opposite Moore or Streater. 3 years 11 million.
Donald Penn - 2 years 9.6 million with no guaranteed money. Stopgap signing allowing them time to continue to develop Watson.
Austin Howard - 5 years 30 millions 15 million guaranteed.
Antonio Smith - 2 years 9 million. Upgrades the interior of the DL and can provide a little pass rush.
Khalil Mack - Widely considered a top 3 pick in this class. This was a great pick and albeit it provides more risk than going the safer route of taking Matthews it was probably the right pick. He had a higher ceiling than anyone else left on the board (and arguably the most upside beyond Clowney in this class).
Derek Carr - Arguably was the best QB on the board here, and this pick was not a reach. They didn't go up to get him, they addressed a big need and let him fall right to them. Thus taking him where they did allows them the ability to spend a high pick on another QB next year after getting a full year to evaluate him as a pro if they come away unsure about him.
See the trend ? Lots of short term deals with not a lot of guaranteed money and no inflated contracts beyond perhaps Howard (who provides an upgrade on the OL either at RG or RT). Reggie actually did quite well considering that Oakland is not an attractive market currently to free agent (short of grossly overpaying guys and they had the money to do so but chose not to). Obviously a lot depends on how well these guys gel and they added a ton of new bodies but it provided a ton of stop gaps to plug up the multiple holes on that roster. They should be a much more competitive team who at best like get to 500 and at worst end up with another top 5 pick. I really don't get what people expected the Raiders to do in the offseason ? Had they done the opposite and signed 2-3-4 of the top names off the top of the FA class they would have had to overpay and would have been roasted for it. Instead it appears they bought themselves a bunch of stop gap options and seemingly are going to continue develop their current young players and those they acquired through the draft (and will acquire through future draft classes). One thing is clear though this offseason did not put them in a position to be right back into cap hell in a couple or a few years if things don't pan out.
You say Allen and McKenzie have no idea what they are doing but you are forgetting this is the year they finally climbed out of cap hell. Given what they have had to work with up until now (in terms of cash, draft picks and talent on the roster), there wasn't much they could do. McKenzie's draft in 2012 looks bad (though he also didn't have a pick until the 3rd round) but 2013 produced Sio Moore and Mychal Rivera to date and the overall grade of that class will depend on how Hayden and Watson develop going forward.
[ Edited by KRS-1 on Jul 31, 2014 at 9:20 AM ]
Jul 31, 2014 at 12:04 PM
- Baldie
- Veteran
- Posts: 21,135
The Raiders are still in oakland?
Jul 31, 2014 at 3:18 PM
- DelCed2486
- Veteran
- Posts: 7,158
Originally posted by Empire49:
Originally posted by Bluesbro:
Empire49 ... one of the best rants I have ever read on this board. Nicely done
LOL just keeping it real, bro. I cannot comprehend why any 49ers fans would care about the raiders leaving.
I've been a 49er fan for a good while longer than you, STH for 20+ years, and I don't want the Raiders to leave. I think it's bad for Oakland, the Bay Area in general and East Bay in particular, plus I think it's cool having two NFL teams in this market.
Jul 31, 2014 at 6:36 PM
- Empire49
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,927
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Empire49:
Originally posted by Bluesbro:
Empire49 ... one of the best rants I have ever read on this board. Nicely done
LOL just keeping it real, bro. I cannot comprehend why any 49ers fans would care about the raiders leaving.
I've been a 49er fan for a good while longer than you, STH for 20+ years, and I don't want the Raiders to leave. I think it's bad for Oakland, the Bay Area in general and East Bay in particular, plus I think it's cool having two NFL teams in this market.
It doesn't matter if you've been a fan since 1946 or since 2012, I still don't see why a fan of the San Francisco 49ers would be upset over the Oakland raiders leaving to another city.
Is it bad for Oakland? Maybe. But that city (and this region) has proven it cannot (or simply will not) support that team. It might actually be bad for the raiders if they stay.
Jul 31, 2014 at 6:51 PM
- Empire49
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,927
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Empire49:
I will not agree that they've had a "good" offseason, but rather an average one at best. They lost their two best players to free agency (after not even trying to retain them when they were over $60 million UNDER the cap) and they brought in a bunch of guys that were good players 4 years ago.
Let's look at their key acquisitions.
FREE AGENCY
QB Matt Schaub - the current king of the pick-6. Dude was atrocious last season, and he won't have anybody like Andre Johnson to throw to in Oakland. His situation is no better in Oakland, and is actually worse.
DE Justin Tuck - had a decent year last year after sucking the previous two. If this were 2008, it would have been a great signing.
LB Lamarr Woodley - this dude hasn't been good since 2010.
CB Tarell Brown - he was the least-feared, most tested CB on our team last year. No QB was afraid to throw at him. He would allow 3 first downs on a single drive, then break up one pass and make some stupid gesture as if he'd been shutting down the WR all game. What a joke. Very overrated.
WR James Jones - was a pretty good player with Aaron Rodgers throwing him the ball. He won't have Rodgers in Oakland. Still a decent signing.
RB Maurice Jones-Drew - hasn't been good since 2011. Can't stay healthy and is clearly on the decline. Went from one terrible team to another.
CB Carlos Rogers - do I even need to get into this guy? He was a huge liability for us the last 2 years. He won't have the pass rush that he had with us, which means he will likely fair even worse in Oakland.
DRAFT
LB Khalil Mack - this is the best acquisition they made all offseason, and he isn't even a guarantee. He could bust just like the majority of their 1st round picks for the last decade. If he pans out, it will be a great pick. However, we've all seen the way the raiders develop their potential stars, and it isn't good.
QB Derek Carr - will need time to develop, and even then he probably won't be much more than a mediocre starter. If they throw him to the wolves right away, he will wind up just like his brother, or worse.
On top of all that, their head coach doesn't know what he's doing and their GM is a joke. They will both be canned after the raiders post another pathetic record in 2014. Then, they'll have to start all over yet again.
Matt Schaub - Labeled King of the Pick 6 yet threw 14 INT's last year as compared to Eli Manning who threw 27 or Palmer and Flacco who threw 22. There were 8 starting QB's who threw more picks than he did last year. He did throw a lot of INT's in crucial situations last year but works as a stopgap/veteran mentor for the time being. He signed a 2 year deal and all the guaranteed money comes in the first year.
Justin Tuck - Had a bounce back year last year after a down year the year prior. His numbers were down in 2011-2012 however he battled injuries that year. He did show up in the playoffs though and came up with 2 sacks in the SB. Signed a 2 year 11 million dollar deal with the Raiders.
Lamar Woodley - While his last 2 years were not great in terms of numbers he signed a 2 year 12 million dollar deal. When factoring in that Tuck will kick inside on passing downs and either Moore or Mack will rush of the left edge, he could bounce back with some decent production. He provides an upgrade over what they had at the very least.
Tarrell Brown - 1 year 3.5 million. Provides depth and improves the secondary.
Carlos Rogers - 1 year 2.5 million. More depth and competition in the secondary.
MJD - 3 years 7.5 million and all his guaranteed money comes in the first year. Provides better depth behind DMC.
James Jones - Upgrades the WR core and starts opposite Moore or Streater. 3 years 11 million.
Donald Penn - 2 years 9.6 million with no guaranteed money. Stopgap signing allowing them time to continue to develop Watson.
Austin Howard - 5 years 30 millions 15 million guaranteed.
Antonio Smith - 2 years 9 million. Upgrades the interior of the DL and can provide a little pass rush.
Khalil Mack - Widely considered a top 3 pick in this class. This was a great pick and albeit it provides more risk than going the safer route of taking Matthews it was probably the right pick. He had a higher ceiling than anyone else left on the board (and arguably the most upside beyond Clowney in this class).
Derek Carr - Arguably was the best QB on the board here, and this pick was not a reach. They didn't go up to get him, they addressed a big need and let him fall right to them. Thus taking him where they did allows them the ability to spend a high pick on another QB next year after getting a full year to evaluate him as a pro if they come away unsure about him.
See the trend ? Lots of short term deals with not a lot of guaranteed money and no inflated contracts beyond perhaps Howard (who provides an upgrade on the OL either at RG or RT). Reggie actually did quite well considering that Oakland is not an attractive market currently to free agent (short of grossly overpaying guys and they had the money to do so but chose not to). Obviously a lot depends on how well these guys gel and they added a ton of new bodies but it provided a ton of stop gaps to plug up the multiple holes on that roster. They should be a much more competitive team who at best like get to 500 and at worst end up with another top 5 pick. I really don't get what people expected the Raiders to do in the offseason ? Had they done the opposite and signed 2-3-4 of the top names off the top of the FA class they would have had to overpay and would have been roasted for it. Instead it appears they bought themselves a bunch of stop gap options and seemingly are going to continue develop their current young players and those they acquired through the draft (and will acquire through future draft classes). One thing is clear though this offseason did not put them in a position to be right back into cap hell in a couple or a few years if things don't pan out.
You say Allen and McKenzie have no idea what they are doing but you are forgetting this is the year they finally climbed out of cap hell. Given what they have had to work with up until now (in terms of cash, draft picks and talent on the roster), there wasn't much they could do. McKenzie's draft in 2012 looks bad (though he also didn't have a pick until the 3rd round) but 2013 produced Sio Moore and Mychal Rivera to date and the overall grade of that class will depend on how Hayden and Watson develop going forward.
Regarding Schaub and other QBs throwing more INTs, how many of those QBs threw more pick-6s? Because that is what I said. I never said he was the king of INTs.
I get the theme of the rest of your post. They made what they felt were the right moves long-term. However, their GM and coach don't have time on their side and those moves are not going to turn that team around. And that was the theme of MY post. The fans don't sellout the stadium as it is and these moves are unlikely to change the product on the field much.
You seem to feel that just because there wasn't much they could have done, that automatically makes their offseason good. It doesn't work that way. They had an average offseason and whether it was by circumstance or not is irrelevant. When you bring in a bunch of average players, you can't be credited as doing an above average job. Are they upgrades over the crap they had? Sure. But they are average nonetheless. When a team has a "good" offseason, you would expect them to be dramatically improved. I don't see that with the raiders and if you do, let's just say you and I have a completely different eye for talent.
And if you believe that team can get to a .500 record, you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, to say the least. They are still the worst team in the AFC West and I don't see it happening.
[ Edited by Empire49 on Jul 31, 2014 at 6:56 PM ]
Jul 31, 2014 at 7:17 PM
- DelCed2486
- Veteran
- Posts: 7,158
Originally posted by Empire49:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Empire49:
Originally posted by Bluesbro:
Empire49 ... one of the best rants I have ever read on this board. Nicely done
LOL just keeping it real, bro. I cannot comprehend why any 49ers fans would care about the raiders leaving.
I've been a 49er fan for a good while longer than you, STH for 20+ years, and I don't want the Raiders to leave. I think it's bad for Oakland, the Bay Area in general and East Bay in particular, plus I think it's cool having two NFL teams in this market.
It doesn't matter if you've been a fan since 1946 or since 2012, I still don't see why a fan of the San Francisco 49ers would be upset over the Oakland raiders leaving to another city.
Is it bad for Oakland? Maybe. But that city (and this region) has proven it cannot (or simply will not) support that team. It might actually be bad for the raiders if they stay.
Maybe? When has losing an NFL franchise been a good thing for a city? There's a reason cities like Baltimore, Houston, Cleveland, and yes Oakland fought tooth-and-nail to get franchises back once they lost one. And BS this region won't/can't support them...the Raiders are in the infancy of being run like a real, modern, 21st Century NFL franchise, if they start to win and maybe get a nice new stadium they will get support. So yeah, this longtime Niner fan does not want to lose the Raiders...perhaps I'm not so shortsighted I think that something good for the Raiders = bad for 49ers.
Jul 31, 2014 at 9:24 PM
- Cjez
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 162,986
NO! That means all those knuckleheads will become "niner fans".
Jul 31, 2014 at 11:30 PM
- LayTheWoodall
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,047
Originally posted by ChazBoner:
NO! That means all those knuckleheads will become "niner fans".
A ton already have, sadly
Aug 1, 2014 at 7:49 AM
- evil
- Veteran
- Posts: 45,771
Originally posted by Empire49:
Regarding Schaub and other QBs throwing more INTs, how many of those QBs threw more pick-6s? Because that is what I said. I never said he was the king of INTs.
I get the theme of the rest of your post. They made what they felt were the right moves long-term. However, their GM and coach don't have time on their side and those moves are not going to turn that team around. And that was the theme of MY post. The fans don't sellout the stadium as it is and these moves are unlikely to change the product on the field much.
You seem to feel that just because there wasn't much they could have done, that automatically makes their offseason good. It doesn't work that way. They had an average offseason and whether it was by circumstance or not is irrelevant. When you bring in a bunch of average players, you can't be credited as doing an above average job. Are they upgrades over the crap they had? Sure. But they are average nonetheless. When a team has a "good" offseason, you would expect them to be dramatically improved. I don't see that with the raiders and if you do, let's just say you and I have a completely different eye for talent.
And if you believe that team can get to a .500 record, you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, to say the least. They are still the worst team in the AFC West and I don't see it happening.
Schaub threw 5 pick 6's.
Matt Ryan threw 4
Flacco threw 3.
Stafford threw 3.
It's a somewhat overblown stat by fans and the media with Schaub. His number is not that much higher than some other QB's who were much more highly regarded as evidenced above. Schaub is not going to lead them to no promised land next year but he can improve on his 2013 campaign, especially given how Oakland had added depth to the backfield and OL giving him a better crutch (run game) to lean on. (Oakland actually had a better rushing attack than Houston did in 2013 and possibly can again this year).
The moves were not to help them long term but short term and field a more competitive team week to week. They brought in some guys who are average and some guys are better than average (or at least have the potential to be) but didn't land anyone who was great. You ignore the fact that they aren't an attractive market so they made the most of what they had to work with and had a "smart" offseason (I never said they had a good one, I said Reggie did quite well). They had an offseason to help improve the culture of the team, fielding a more competitive team with better depth will make them more attractive to their own fans week to week and instill a greater confidence with both the players and coaches on a day to day basis if they can find their groove. 500 as I said was their ceiling for this season, and it is attainable if everything comes together.
From my perspective it appears to me that Reggie is trying to set the table by fielding a more talented roster than they have had in these last few years and slowly make them a respectable franchise like they once were. That takes time, there was no way that this team could be turned around overnight when he took over 3 years ago. You seem to not want to concede that a GM can't improve a roster when his team is not respected, has no cash at his disposal in the first 2 years of his tenure and most of his valuable drafts picks in those same first 2 years of his tenure had been traded away before he arrived. Very few people in the league were actually up to the task of taking over this franchise and very few coaches wanted the HC'ing job. The Raiders were a very large project and remain a work in progress but they may have begun to get back on track with the offseason moves they made.
Aug 1, 2014 at 9:29 AM
- jimrat
- Veteran
- Posts: 23,413
Aug 1, 2014 at 1:20 PM
- Niners99
- Veteran
- Posts: 43,167
This clearly just leverage over the city of Oakland.
Aug 2, 2014 at 3:11 PM
- Phil
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,720
How many teams does Texas need? They should move the team to a state with no NFL teams, or a state with no pro sports team at all. Alabama comes to mind. Or New Mexico for AFC West status.
Aug 2, 2014 at 4:00 PM
- ChaunceyGardner
- Q46 Draft Winner
- Posts: 21,942
Would that make them Los Asaltantes de San Antonio????
Aug 2, 2014 at 4:48 PM
- TonyStarks
- Veteran
- Posts: 60,520
GET THESE RAIDER BNYTCHES OFF OUR LAND!