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TopNotchPLYR
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Originally posted by hohbie:
There it is guys, guess we should just give the Seahawks the West and send them next years superbowl trophy as well. I understand what you are saying and I think the Seahawks are a great team and they are run about as well as any franchise could be run.
But please slow your roll. You did win the superbowl and rightfully so, but its not like you beat the 49ers by a landslide. We split in the regular season then we took you down to the last drive in the championship. And bash Kaep for not being Manning all you want, but he already did do a better job against Seattle's defense then both Manning and Brees.
Again, I think the Seahawks are a great team with a great front office. This next season should be another fun one, but please back off with all this talk like they are untouchable. Without home field advantage last year I think it would have been a different story.
The 49ers played great and are an excellent division rival. And they were a great team last year. And the Seahawks are not untouchable. If Earl Thomas or Kam Chancellor are injured, especially Thomas, then the season is pretty much done for. Jeron Johnson and Shead are good backups but Thomas IS untouchable. My point is, which many media-pundits seem to ignore, is that the 49ers have two key problems going forward: Their system and their age. Both of these problems were exacerbated by a very weak 2012 draft in which the items their system needed: SPEED at RB and WR, were flops. Now they run all these jumbo packages and heavy sets relying on their strong OL and it really doesn't work. A guy like Kam Chancellor can just roll downhill with no fear. It's really that simple. Their age because they haven't successfully found replacements YET for Willis and the Bronco who we all know are the Thomas-like cogs in their 3-4 scheme, as well as Gore on the offensive side.
[ Edited by TopNotchPLYR on Mar 18, 2014 at 11:10 AM ]
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Pillbusta
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Originally posted by hohbie:
There it is guys, guess we should just give the Seahawks the West and send them next years superbowl trophy as well. I understand what you are saying and I think the Seahawks are a great team and they are run about as well as any franchise could be run.
But please slow your roll. You did win the superbowl and rightfully so, but its not like you beat the 49ers by a landslide. We split in the regular season then we took you down to the last drive in the championship. And bash Kaep for not being Manning all you want, but he already did do a better job against Seattle's defense then both Manning and Brees.
Again, I think the Seahawks are a great team with a great front office. This next season should be another fun one, but please back off with all this talk like they are untouchable. Without home field advantage last year I think it would have been a different story.
Yes. The 4th and 7 that should not have been. I mean who watches the clock nowadays anyway? Some very fortunate happenings for SEA in that contest and yet they still squeaked by for the win at home. SEA won but we were right behind them. Maybe next year the ball bounces in our favor
[ Edited by Pillbusta on Mar 18, 2014 at 11:12 AM ]
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Pillbusta
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Originally posted by TopNotchPLYR:
The 49ers played great and are an excellent division rival. And they were a great team last year. And the Seahawks are not untouchable. If Earl Thomas or Kam Chancellor are injured, especially Thomas, then the season is pretty much done for. Jeron Johnson and Shead are good backups but Thomas IS untouchable. My point is, which many media-pundits seem to ignore, is that the 49ers have two key problems going forward: Their system and their age. Both of these problems were exacerbated by a very weak 2012 draft in which the items their system needed: SPEED at RB and WR, were flops. Now they run all these jumbo packages and heavy sets relying on their strong OL and it really doesn't work. A guy like Kam Chancellor can just roll downhill with no fear. It's really that simple. Their age because they haven't successfully found replacements YET for Willis and the Bronco who we all know are the Thomas-like cogs in their 3-4 scheme, as well as Gore on the offensive side.
You must not have studied our roster nor our draft ammunition. You can bet that a team picking 5 or 6 times in the top 95 to 100 selections will remedy some of our ails. And please tell me of your 2013 draft class? Now we will have what will be the equivalent of 2 draft classes hitting the field this year with Tank and Lattimore and Cully returning plus our 11 to 12 picks we can select. We will get younger and be able to address our RB and WR issues twice over this offseason. Willis will play a long time and so will Bowman and keep an eye out for Tank!
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hohbie
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Originally posted by TopNotchPLYR:
The 49ers played great and are an excellent division rival. And they were a great team last year. And the Seahawks are not untouchable. If Earl Thomas or Kam Chancellor are injured, especially Thomas, then the season is pretty much done for. Jeron Johnson and Shead are good backups but Thomas IS untouchable. My point is, which many media-pundits seem to ignore, is that the 49ers have two key problems going forward: Their system and their age. Both of these problems were exacerbated by a very weak 2012 draft in which the items their system needed: SPEED at RB and WR, were flops. Now they run all these jumbo packages and heavy sets relying on their strong OL and it really doesn't work. A guy like Kam Chancellor can just roll downhill with no fear. It's really that simple. Their age because they haven't successfully found replacements YET for Willis and the Bronco who we all know are the Thomas-like cogs in their 3-4 scheme, as well as Gore on the offensive side.
I agree, the 2012 draft is possibly the worst ever. People here will say James is alright, but I dont even like him and I wish we would trade him. But what we did do that draft was load up for 2013 which allowed us the luxury of drafting a couple of redshirt rookies (Lattimore and Carradine and move up to get Reid). We also have a bunch of extra picks this year. I think our position going forward is fine. Yes we are another year older, but we are still playing at an elite defense. Could that go away? Sure, but unlikely to decline that much.
The point is we did play you with those guys healthy and we played you to the wire in Seattle in the championship. I dont think Kaep is anywhere near his peak (same with Wilson), so another year he should be better. If Crabs and Boldin can stay healthy all year he will have a much better season. Im not saying the 49ers will for sure beat Seattle this year, but I think it is funny if Seattle thinks the 49ers will be a cake walk.
I agree their system is sometimes flawed. You will see people here screaming for 3 wr sets. But to say it doesnt work is wrong again. Look at Manning's high flying offense against Seattle. It was awful, the 49ers did much better. It can work we just need to add some different looks and do a better job of mixing things up. I love Gore, but they need to get some more carries for Hunter and now Lattimore for a change of pace.
All in all I think the NFC west will be the toughest division in the NFL. I look forward to the season so we could stop debating about it and finally just see how it unfolds.
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TopNotchPLYR
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Originally posted by Pillbusta:
You must not have studied our roster nor our draft ammunition. You can bet that a team picking 5 or 6 times in the top 95 to 100 selections will remedy some of our ails. And please tell me of your 2013 draft class? Now we will have what will be the equivalent of 2 draft classes hitting the field this year with Tank and Lattimore and Cully returning plus our 11 to 12 picks we can select. We will get younger and be able to address our RB and WR issues twice over this offseason. Willis will play a long time and so will Bowman and keep an eye out for Tank!
I haven't begun to look at the 49ers draft ammunition, you're right. Harbaugh does have a reputation of being excellent at stockpiling picks. Tank, Lattimore, and Cully may all prove to be good players. I need to wait and see on that if they can replace Justin Smith and Frank Gore however. And no one on your roster projects to have the sideline playmaking ability that Willis used to have. I base my arguments on what a player has already accomplished. If Earl Thomas went down I would be saying the same thing even if we drafted 100 safeties. Same thing with Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and Adrian Peterson, etc etc.
The difference with the 2012 and 2013 drafts is about a Super Bowls difference. The 2012 needed to immediately augment your team with speed, which it failed to do (maybe LMJ will improve his ability to break tackles) and as a results your offense suffered throughout the season to the point of not achieving home field advantage. The 2013 draft for the Seahawks needed exactly nothing. The team was already put together. Yes, if no one pans out on the 2013 draft it will hurt the team and could be a Super Bowls difference the day that Marshawn Lynch retires and Christine Michael can't pick up the slack. Or if Richard Sherman bolts in two years and Tharold Simon can't prove to be an effective replacement for Byron Maxwell who would slide over to LCB. If your team drafts a dynamite speedster ILB or RB or WR with all those picks then hell yes the projections would change. But it's not every day people draft a Tom Brady in the seventh round.
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matt49er
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I don't understand everybody saying the 49ers have trouble with age, I'm not even going to go through and look up actual ages of players but let's go position by position and just label players young or old.
QB: Kaep-young, Gabbert-young
RB: Gore-old, Lattimore-young, LMJ-young, Hunter-young
FB: Miller-young
TE: VD-young (prime), McDonald-young
WR: Crabs-young, Boldin -old, Patton-young
OL: Kilgore-young, Davis-young, Boone-young, Iupati-young, Staley-young (prime), Looney-young
DE: Smith-old, McDonald-old, Tank-young, TJE-young, Dobbs-young,
NT: Dorsey-young (prime), Williams-young, Dial-young
ILB: Bowman-young, Willis -young (prime), Moody-young, Wilholte-young
OLB: A.Smith-young, Brooks-young (prime), Skuta-old (borderline), Lemonier-young
CB: Brock-young, Culliver-young, Wright-young, Morris-young, Cook-young
S: Reid-young, Bethea-old (borderline prime),
K-Dawson-old
P-Lee-old (borderline prime)
seriously way more young/players in their prime than there is old players. In spots where we have old guys (other than kickers) we have young replacements lined up.
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TopNotchPLYR
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Originally posted by matt49er:
I don't understand everybody saying the 49ers have trouble with age, I'm not even going to go through and look up actual ages of players but let's go position by position and just label players young or old.
QB: Kaep-young, Gabbert-young
RB: Gore-old, Lattimore-young, LMJ-young, Hunter-young
FB: Miller-young
TE: VD-young (prime), McDonald-young
WR: Crabs-young, Boldin -old, Patton-young
OL: Kilgore-young, Davis-young, Boone-young, Iupati-young, Staley-young (prime), Looney-young
DE: Smith-old, McDonald-old, Tank-young, TJE-young, Dobbs-young,
NT: Dorsey-young (prime), Williams-young, Dial-young
ILB: Bowman-young, Willis -young (prime), Moody-young, Wilholte-young
OLB: A.Smith-young, Brooks-young (prime), Skuta-old (borderline), Lemonier-young
CB: Brock-young, Culliver-young, Wright-young, Morris-young, Cook-young
S: Reid-young, Bethea-old (borderline prime),
K-Dawson-old
P-Lee-old (borderline prime)
seriously way more young/players in their prime than there is old players. In spots where we have old guys (other than kickers) we have young replacements lined up.
None of those players have really proved to be difference makers. Kaepernick in the open field is field tilter. Reid "could" be a game changer but I haven't seen anything yet besides being a solid role player that you would want to walk when he signs contract too rich to hang onto due to being part of a great defense. Willis is not the HOF LB he used to be which was the centerpiece of their defense. Yes, he's going to the HOF for SURE but because of the way he used to be. He is still elite though (as of last year, is that going to hold true next year?) so yes he is a field tilter. Bowman is also sick and if he comes back 100%+ he will be in that category too. So would be Staley. The word around here is that Iupati will walk. Aldon Smith can't be in this category yet because he rushes with his head down most of the time, leading to average to below-average edge containment and average run defense. He did show steps to improve that.
So we got Staley, Willis, and Bowman as young game changers that are in the long term plans. However, from the eye test I see Willis noticeably declining (review the NFCCG, esp Lynch's long run), Bowman was hurt pretty bad, hopefully he comes back fine but I'd say it's fair to throw that into the "age" category at least this offseason. Staley doesn't really play at a prime field tilting position, especially considering Kaepernick's throwing is not his strong suit. So essentially we have Kaepernick's running ability and Willis and Bowman, and that's exactly how the NFCCG played out. Strong defense which was strongest in the middle but gave up a key game changing play, and Kaepernick running around everywhere. I think Seattle will solve Kaepernick this year (Irvin on one side with contain and K.J. Wright/Thomas on the other side is my guess). So all you got in terms of game changers are pre-draft heading forward is Willis and Bowman. 9-7.
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Existence
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Originally posted by matt49er:
I don't understand everybody saying the 49ers have trouble with age, I'm not even going to go through and look up actual ages of players but let's go position by position and just label players young or old.
QB: Kaep-young, Gabbert-young
RB: Gore-old, Lattimore-young, LMJ-young, Hunter-young
FB: Miller-young
TE: VD-young (prime), McDonald-young
WR: Crabs-young, Boldin -old, Patton-young
OL: Kilgore-young, Davis-young, Boone-young, Iupati-young, Staley-young (prime), Looney-young
DE: Smith-old, McDonald-old, Tank-young, TJE-young, Dobbs-young,
NT: Dorsey-young (prime), Williams-young, Dial-young
ILB: Bowman-young, Willis -young (prime), Moody-young, Wilholte-young
OLB: A.Smith-young, Brooks-young (prime), Skuta-old (borderline), Lemonier-young
CB: Brock-young, Culliver-young, Wright-young, Morris-young, Cook-young
S: Reid-young, Bethea-old (borderline prime),
K-Dawson-old
P-Lee-old (borderline prime)
seriously way more young/players in their prime than there is old players. In spots where we have old guys (other than kickers) we have young replacements lined up.
Haha you're going to use logic and facts in a football discussion with a Hawk's fan? Why their team is the youngest, hungriest, loyalist, non-money grubbin-est Super Bowl winning team of all time (except, like, that the average 'age' difference is like 2.1 years between the very youngest NFL team and the very oldest, so that stat is all but insignificant. And, well ya -- all those Seattle free agents that left really would have, you know, preferred to play in front of the 12th Man [2.0] forever, but you know -- family and stuff! And none of those free agent losses will impact their team at all, no way! Pete and Schneider have a plan dammit!)
Lol. Can't wait for next season...
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Existence
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Originally posted by TopNotchPLYR:
Strong defense which was strongest in the middle but gave up a key game changing play (by Frank Gore in the Niner's win just back in December), and Wilson running around everywhere. I think San Francisco will solve Wilson this year (A. Smith on one side with contain and Willis/Bethea on the other side is my guess). So all you got in terms of game changers are pre-draft heading forward is drugs and a stadium that amplifies sound. 9-7.
Fixed for ya, silly Hawk fan!
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TopNotchPLYR
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Originally posted by Existence:
Fixed for ya, silly Hawk fan!
I laughed, good edit.
But seriously, I know what we got and I ain't worried. I wouldn't expect anything less from any rival fan except putting down a division rival and coming up with excuses, otherwise what would be the point of having a favorite team amirite?
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Young2Rice
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Originally posted by baltien:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
How many crack casualties will they have again this year? I'm guessing at least 3.
I'll bet $20 that Sherman gets popped again before his next contract.
Any takers?
No way. Its almost guaranteed. I can't wait for that day and watch him squirm.
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TopNotchPLYR
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Originally posted by Existence:
Haha you're going to use logic and facts in a football discussion with a Hawk's fan? Why their team is the youngest, hungriest, loyalist, non-money grubbin-est Super Bowl winning team of all time (except, like, that the average 'age' difference is like 2.1 years between the very youngest NFL team and the very oldest, so that stat is all but insignificant. And, well ya -- all those Seattle free agents that left really would have, you know, preferred to play in front of the 12th Man [2.0] forever, but you know -- family and stuff! And none of those free agent losses will impact their team at all, no way! Pete and Schneider have a plan dammit!)
Lol. Can't wait for next season...
I believe you are confused about how the NFL works. Not a single GM gives much more than a brief consideration towards role players and then they're allowed to walk to another team. You spend your money on the big names. How many of all those players he spent typing out are elite, young, and in the long term plans? 2. Maybe 3 if you include Aldon Smith. How many young, developed, skill-position, elite players on the offensive side do you all have?
The average age stat isn't really hogwash. The sample size of the roster is 53, and there has been 48 super bowl, a 2 year difference in average age is pretty damn statistically significant when you factor in that large sample size and the range (4 sigma is probably 22-29). The real problem with that stat is that it doesn't show how young the Seahawks star players really are.
I know, real facts besides just listing off names of some scrubs is confusing. You want a source?
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/21/projected-lineups-san-francisco-49ers/
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crabman82
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Originally posted by TopNotchPLYR:
Originally posted by Existence:
Haha you're going to use logic and facts in a football discussion with a Hawk's fan? Why their team is the youngest, hungriest, loyalist, non-money grubbin-est Super Bowl winning team of all time (except, like, that the average 'age' difference is like 2.1 years between the very youngest NFL team and the very oldest, so that stat is all but insignificant. And, well ya -- all those Seattle free agents that left really would have, you know, preferred to play in front of the 12th Man [2.0] forever, but you know -- family and stuff! And none of those free agent losses will impact their team at all, no way! Pete and Schneider have a plan dammit!)
Lol. Can't wait for next season...
I believe you are confused about how the NFL works. Not a single GM gives much more than a brief consideration towards role players and then they're allowed to walk to another team. You spend your money on the big names. How many of all those players he spent typing out are elite, young, and in the long term plans? 2. Maybe 3 if you include Aldon Smith. How many young, developed, skill-position, elite players on the offensive side do you all have?
The average age stat isn't really hogwash. The sample size of the roster is 53, and there has been 48 super bowl, a 2 year difference in average age is pretty damn statistically significant when you factor in that large sample size and the range (4 sigma is probably 22-29). The real problem with that stat is that it doesn't show how young the Seahawks star players really are.
I know, real facts besides just listing off names of some scrubs is confusing. You want a source? https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/02/21/projected-lineups-san-francisco-49ers/
some source. lists baldwin as the slot wr and rogers as the slot cb
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TopNotchPLYR
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Originally posted by crabman82:
some source. lists baldwin as the slot wr and rogers as the slot cb
Yeah my source hadn't invented a time machine at the time of publication. You have one that did?
Your point is moot anyways though, it's not like anyone important is going to replace those guys.
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Hoovtrain
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Originally posted by TopNotchPLYR:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Not sad at all to see Clemons in Jax. IIRC, he was a tough matchup for Staley.
edit: I think we'll find more room to run with Bryant and McDonald gone, too.
Avril is significantly better than Clemons.
McDonald was signed away due to his interior pocket collapsing abilities, not his run defense. Tony McDaniel was re-signed almost immediately due to his size in the middle. Schneider knows all this.
Bryant was also a bit overrated and was generally kept around an extra year because he is well respected among the players in this league. JAX got a massive amount of character and leadership from those two players in Clemons and Bryant. Remember Gore hitting that inside trap play repeatedly 2 years ago with massive success @ SF? That was Iupati pulling over and taking Bryant out of the play. Bryant was too slow to navigate back to the inside where Gore was slashing. I'll throw out a name for you to keep an eye on and that's Greg Scruggs. He was IR'ed last year but showed plus inside penetration (remember, SEA runs an over formation), plus length, plus speed, below average anchoring, and average strength. Reportedly he bulked up to 310 or so and is really just a man of muscle, I expect his strength to be a strong point next year. If he can 2-gap like Bryant then this conversation is a moot point because of his speed. Iupati or whoever plays LG in the future won't be able to catch him in time to stop him, especially if they expect to move on from Iupati.
Really though, last year lack of success on the running game showed it wasn't Red Bryant since he played in both Hawks home games. The issue is the San Francisco 49ers need to solve is Kam Chancellor. Kaepernick needs to be learn, and fast, how to exploit the cover 3 to force Kam back out of the box. The problem with that is that Seattle has an elite starter at LCB and a borderline high quality starter RCB. Not to mention an elite safety to go with Kam who was an elite player throughout the playoffs. Plus every one of the Hawks LBers are speed specialists (all 4.4) to cover the middle ground. Well, good luck Kaep because even Manning couldn't do it. One player that would break this scheme is Percy Harvin since he can run fly sweeps and run around the box. Again, Schneider is a step ahead of the game.
On that note, think Aldon Smith can catch Harvin? Anyways, that's for a different day.
Originally posted by TonyStarks:
Still have to wait and see after their draft.It's not like Aaron Curry worked out for them. They got cheap low drafts and switched them on as drugg-*err*- starters.
Aaron Curry was drafted by the previous regime. The current leadership in Seattle has since drafted players along the lines of Earl Thomas, Richard Sherman, Russell Wilson, Russell Okung, Kam Chancellor, etc etc.
Bruce Irvin is the only player on the Hawks to be have been suspended for drug use. He's the least of the 9ers concerns, for now...wait until he begins to blitz from the SAM (on the line) LBer position. Almost feel bad for Kaep...
The fact is unless the 49ers can develop a quarterback that is superior to Peyton Manning or find a Harvin type player that can outrun both Earl Thomas and Bruce Irvin (clocked at 4.38) on enough of a consistent basis to scare the defense of fly sweeps, the best bet for success is to wait and hope injuries deplete the Hawks excellent depth. They could also reinforce their already strong defense into one that projects better than the Seahawks, but with your star defensive players coming off injuries or on the downside of their career, the best bet for that is hoping to score a young Patrick Willis who can dominate sideline to sideline or a safety who can catch Harvin in the draft.
However, with the current trends (and Kaep's decision making) I expect the standings to be along the lines of 1) SEA, 14-2, 2) STL, 12-4, 3) ARZ 10-6, 4) SF 9-7. All that could change but that's what I see as the current projection into 2014 and 2015.
TL,DR: Well don't read it, move on.
Lol. Well there you have it.
[ Edited by Hoovtrain on Mar 18, 2014 at 1:20 PM ]