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Jimmy and Trent fumbled ths one?

  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,677
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Cooper just got burned. Really really bad.

I saw it too. Happens to everyone. Overall he is having a good game though. I'm still not upset over losing him though. I do think that in the future we may choose the youth/lower salary over the experience

Yeah, he was good today aside from the TD.
Originally posted by LottDMontanaO:
They didn't choose Morris over Cooper. They had cut both players at the final cutdowns with the hope of stashing one or both on the PS. Before they could sign Cooper to the PS (assuming they were going to), KC signed him on to their 53-man roster, is how I understood it.

Yes, they cut both on August 21st , the 9ers then signed Morris to the Practice Squad, while KC signed Cooper to their roster.
The problem is that the 49ers have to err on the side of veterans in a situation like this. Coming into the season (and even now, at the halfway point), they were an upper-echelon team that had legitimate Super Bowl aspirations. We brought in Asomugha because he was at one time one of the top 2 CB's in the game. The staff obviously liked what they saw in training camp/preseason, and he earned a spot on the team. Anyway, if you're San Francisco, you've got to go with the proven commodity over an unproven rookie when it's close like this. Cooper looked good, but he was also largely an unknown.
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Cooper just got burned. Really really bad.

looks like the safety may have had deep coverage---they ran a couple other deep patterns vs cooper later in the game and he was stride for stride with the receiver and defensed the pass---plus he knocked one down in the end zone to save a td---face it, this guy was a akeeper
Cooper is the best CB on the Chiefs. Yes, better than Flowers.

Stuff happens, but it's clear that we made a mistake trying to put him on waivers.
Cooper playing like a first round CB. Especially for his size. We could have used his size to go against some of the bigger receivers. The coaching staff f**ked up. Baalke did a good job drafted the guy. The coaching staff let him go.
Originally posted by hofer36:
looks like the safety may have had deep coverage---they ran a couple other deep patterns vs cooper later in the game and he was stride for stride with the receiver and defensed the pass---plus he knocked one down in the end zone to save a td---face it, this guy was a akeeper

No, he got toasted once, and almost got toasted a second time except Tuel underthrew the receiver by about 5 yards and the receiver had to go back to get it. Cooper clearly was having issues defending Goodwin, against a better QB, there would have been a lot more big plays. He's a nice talent, but people trying to build up him up as Darrelle Revis are nuts.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by hofer36:
looks like the safety may have had deep coverage---they ran a couple other deep patterns vs cooper later in the game and he was stride for stride with the receiver and defensed the pass---plus he knocked one down in the end zone to save a td---face it, this guy was a akeeper

No, he got toasted once, and almost got toasted a second time except Tuel underthrew the receiver by about 5 yards and the receiver had to go back to get it. Cooper clearly was having issues defending Goodwin, against a better QB, there would have been a lot more big plays. He's a nice talent, but people trying to build up him up as Darrelle Revis are nuts.


link please to anyone calling cooper as a revis type player
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by hofer36:
looks like the safety may have had deep coverage---they ran a couple other deep patterns vs cooper later in the game and he was stride for stride with the receiver and defensed the pass---plus he knocked one down in the end zone to save a td---face it, this guy was a akeeper

No, he got toasted once, and almost got toasted a second time except Tuel underthrew the receiver by about 5 yards and the receiver had to go back to get it. Cooper clearly was having issues defending Goodwin, against a better QB, there would have been a lot more big plays. He's a nice talent, but people trying to build up him up as Darrelle Revis are nuts.


link please to anyone calling cooper as a revis type player

In his full body of work this season, Cooper's performance has been remarkable. A UDFA turned #3 CB on an undefeated team is certainly noteworthy. And he's contributed on special teams in multiple games.

And outside of being burned on that one play, Cooper had 3 passes defended in today's game. When you play with Flowers and Smith in the secondary, you'll be picked on more. And Goodwin is a very fast and talented receiver, so it was bound to happen at some point.

That being said, he's faced so many struggling QBs and reserve QBs that it's not fair to truly assess his value as of yet. Jags, Giants, Titans (Fitzpatrick), Bills (Tuel), Texans, Browns, Cowboys, Raiders, Eagles (Vick).

The biggest test will be next week as the Chiefs will face the Broncos.
Am looking forward to watching Cooper against P Manning. If anyone can pick on a rookie DB I would think Manning is the guy.
Member Milestone: This is post number 400 for trellblaze.
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Should have kept over Ray ventrone. Lol.

Ray Ventrone was kept for special teams. That's a very important group.

I know that. Cooper could play special teams as well. A corner with potential that can also play special teams is more valuable than a player that plays strictly special teams, plus we have a boatload of special teams players already.

So you would've kept a 7th rounder who hadn't shown very much in camp or pre-season over a proven ST vet? Why would you have done that?

Because that 7th rounder had some very impressive measurables and potential and because we have quite a few corners only signed through this year. He actually had proven to the coaching staff to be talented, hence why we wanted to stash him on the practice squad.

Obviously in hindsight it's easier to look at what you may have done wrong and I believe this was one of those things. We shouldn't have taken that risk of stashing Cooper on the practice squad. It's not a huge deal, since our secondary has been playing lights out, but it would have been nice to have a guy with potential like that on our team for the future.

Instead, we chose to keep around a guy with special teams only contributions. We more than kept enough ST coverage players and could have afforded to let Ventrone go in favor of Cooper who again can play special teams as well. That's why I would have done that.

Oh and we probably should have been a little more concerned with our return game in special teams, then having so many coverage 'aces'. A solid return man like Lavelle Hawkins also should have been kept over Ventrone.

Don't get me wrong, coverage units on special teams are very important, but there is a point to where you may go overboard on that unit and store one to many guys. Then you end up letting some talented guys go that could contribute in more ways than one and more down the line.

Baalke and Harbaugh aren't free from mistakes. It would have been wiser to keep Cooper instead of Ventrone.

Considering the plays our coverage team has made this year and the situations they've put our defenses in, I'll respectfully disagree with you here. The coverage has been so good that they actually make up for the lack of a return game. It's been THAT dominant.

Physical "measurable's" are impressive but do not make a player.

Besides, there are other players who most likely would've been put in Vendrone's hypothetical vacant spot - such as Cam Johnson. Cut Ventrone and Cam Johnson would likely still be here and Cooper still would've been cut.

Yes and do you really think the coverage unit would fall off with Cooper in place of Ventrone? I don't think so. Ventrone hasn't stood out. One guy does not make or break the special teams unit. The point is we more than covered our asses with special teams aces and could have afforded to keep a talented guy around that can again also play special teams.

Of course physical measurables don't make a player. But you can't teach the speed/height/weight combination. And again, he was more than a physically talented player. He obviously was showing he could play some football, which is why we wanted to place him on the PS and why the Chiefs swooped him up.

I would have preferred Cam Johnson over Ventrone as well. Can play special teams and olb depth is very important. And we don't know who would have been the next guy up had Ventrone not made the team. You say Cooper would have still been cut. How do you know? You have inside information? Cooper was on the bubble if we wanted to keep him on the practice squad. Meanwhile, we don't even know if Cam Johnson for sure would have been put on the PS, since we traded him.

The 49ers made sure that the coverage unit got back to its 2011 form by concentrating roster spots on it. However, they did this at the expense of losing young, talented players that could help the team in the future. In hindsight it is easy to see that keeping Cooper over Ventrone would have been the wiser decision. I hope you can concede that. But even at the time, I would have kept the younger, more talented, and more versatile guy over an older player that plays strictly special teams, especially considering we have a number of corners who contracts expire after this year. I understand the reasoning by us to go ultra conservative on keeping so many ST aces, but it was overboard and a mistake.

You can't blame Harbaalke or Brad Seely for the decision as all coaches in the NFL miss on things all the time, but you definitely can admit that they missed on this. Hopefully they learn from this and decide to not take a risk of stashing a young talented and versatile player on the PS in favor of an older one trick pony.

No, I don't have inside information. That's why I said it's likely that Cam would've been kept instead of Cooper. It is a very valid argument that the team was much higher on Johnson at the time than Cooper considering the showing Cam had in the last pre-season game. Johnson is a guy that the 49ers had been looking for production from the previous year and he finally delivered.

As for Cooper, I still think it's inaccurate to label it a "mistake". "Unfortunate", I think would be more accurate because there is SO MUCH hindsight involved here. Again, there is no evidence that indicates that the F.O. should've known Cooper would perform this well. He was ok in practice (according to all reports), and less than average in the preseason. A mistake, in my opinion, would've been a clear display of potential by Cooper and him being cut in spite of it. In this situation, it was more of a coin toss than anything.

Of course I agree that Cooper over Ventrone is preferable NOW. But my honest opinion back in pre-season - I was torn between Cooper and Morris. I went back and watched college film on them and I came away more impressed with Morris. Though I didn't like Morris's size, the thing that stood out to me about him (aside from his speed) was his ability to take PERFECT angles on tackles. No matter where he was coming from or where the ball carrier was going, his angle was almost always PERFECT. I saw him going from one sideline to the other to save what would've been a deep TD pass (the other corner was beat...not him).

Eventually, they both got cut (Morris made it to the P.S. of course) but at the time, based on what I researched, I would've kept Morris over Cooper. Obviously my research doesn't come close to comparing with our coaching staff. Just saying that I don't think anybody could've known what Cooper would do on game day.