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Jimmy and Trent fumbled ths one?

Originally posted by English:
It is, I think, fair and realistic to regret one that got away. However, without the benefit of hindsight this one would have been very difficult to call. To phrase it as a criticism of the team is simply not supportable, to be polite. The team's record with late picks and UDFA's is remarkably good.


Short answer -- of course. It's a regret. But that's the business, too.

You have to project upside across a bunch of rookie players without a lot of history with them. They wanted to put Cooper on the ps -- it didn't work out that way.

I would be concerned if the reasons for cutting him were not professional -- and if this was a trend. But there's no evidence of that.
The wide receiver drafts and coaching seems subpar for a few seasons and while Roman has not distinguished himself, I wonder most if Morton has any value as a coach. If he had any astute input into drafts and or making receivers better, it has not been apparent.
Originally posted by prometheus:
The wide receiver drafts and coaching seems subpar for a few seasons and while Roman has not distinguished himself, I wonder most if Morton has any value as a coach. If he had any astute input into drafts and or making receivers better, it has not been apparent.

Outside of Crabtree, the 49ers front office has been pretty bad in drafting talented wide receivers. Verdict is out on Patton, but he may be placed on IR when Crabtree returns.

A.J. Jenkins, Ronald Johnson, Kyle Williams, Michael Crabtree, Josh Morgan, Jason Hill, and Brandon Williams have been the drafted players by the 49ers since 2006. We've basically averaged one WR pick per draft, and Michael Crabtree is the only that's really shined for us.

Every other player that's no longer part of the 49ers team has not made a dent in the NFL outside of Josh Morgan, and Josh himself is no longer a starter for the Redskins.

We had five WRs on our roster that were in their first year in our offense on our opening day roster - Patton, Marlon Moore, Jon Baldwin, Anquan Boldin, and Kassim Osgood. And while Boldin has shined, it's not hard to understand why others haven't made an impact. Baldwin is a bust, Osgood is purely ST, Patton got injured, Moore never got reps.

But our WR coach has done very well with Crabtree, Boldin, and Manningham. Let's see how our opinion of him changes once these guys return to injury.
Originally posted by GEEK:
Originally posted by prometheus:
The wide receiver drafts and coaching seems subpar for a few seasons and while Roman has not distinguished himself, I wonder most if Morton has any value as a coach. If he had any astute input into drafts and or making receivers better, it has not been apparent.

Outside of Crabtree, the 49ers front office has been pretty bad in drafting talented wide receivers. Verdict is out on Patton, but he may be placed on IR when Crabtree returns.

A.J. Jenkins, Ronald Johnson, Kyle Williams, Michael Crabtree, Josh Morgan, Jason Hill, and Brandon Williams have been the drafted players by the 49ers since 2006. We've basically averaged one WR pick per draft, and Michael Crabtree is the only that's really shined for us.

Every other player that's no longer part of the 49ers team has not made a dent in the NFL outside of Josh Morgan, and Josh himself is no longer a starter for the Redskins.

We had five WRs on our roster that were in their first year in our offense on our opening day roster - Patton, Marlon Moore, Jon Baldwin, Anquan Boldin, and Kassim Osgood. And while Boldin has shined, it's not hard to understand why others haven't made an impact. Baldwin is a bust, Osgood is purely ST, Patton got injured, Moore never got reps.

But our WR coach has done very well with Crabtree, Boldin, and Manningham. Let's see how our opinion of him changes once these guys return to injury.

One responsibility of a position coach is to help young draft talent realize their potential at the NFL level. Boldin and Manningham were not developed as player by our coaching staff. Crabtree took a long time to realize his potential. So I don't think the current success of those guys has any indication of our WR coaching.

We will see how Patton pans out, but so far.... I'm not at all impressed by our ability to develop WR talent.
Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
I was surprised he didn't make the team actually. Check my prior posts where I stated that basically every player we drafted could make the team. This was a great draft like the old Walsh drafts.

he would have made the team if it wasnt for Nmandi
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Should have kept over Ray ventrone. Lol.

Ray Ventrone was kept for special teams. That's a very important group.

I know that. Cooper could play special teams as well. A corner with potential that can also play special teams is more valuable than a player that plays strictly special teams, plus we have a boatload of special teams players already.

So you would've kept a 7th rounder who hadn't shown very much in camp or pre-season over a proven ST vet? Why would you have done that?

Because that 7th rounder had some very impressive measurables and potential and because we have quite a few corners only signed through this year. He actually had proven to the coaching staff to be talented, hence why we wanted to stash him on the practice squad.

Obviously in hindsight it's easier to look at what you may have done wrong and I believe this was one of those things. We shouldn't have taken that risk of stashing Cooper on the practice squad. It's not a huge deal, since our secondary has been playing lights out, but it would have been nice to have a guy with potential like that on our team for the future.

Instead, we chose to keep around a guy with special teams only contributions. We more than kept enough ST coverage players and could have afforded to let Ventrone go in favor of Cooper who again can play special teams as well. That's why I would have done that.

Oh and we probably should have been a little more concerned with our return game in special teams, then having so many coverage 'aces'. A solid return man like Lavelle Hawkins also should have been kept over Ventrone.

Don't get me wrong, coverage units on special teams are very important, but there is a point to where you may go overboard on that unit and store one to many guys. Then you end up letting some talented guys go that could contribute in more ways than one and more down the line.

Baalke and Harbaugh aren't free from mistakes. It would have been wiser to keep Cooper instead of Ventrone.

Considering the plays our coverage team has made this year and the situations they've put our defenses in, I'll respectfully disagree with you here. The coverage has been so good that they actually make up for the lack of a return game. It's been THAT dominant.

Physical "measurable's" are impressive but do not make a player.

Besides, there are other players who most likely would've been put in Vendrone's hypothetical vacant spot - such as Cam Johnson. Cut Ventrone and Cam Johnson would likely still be here and Cooper still would've been cut.

Yes and do you really think the coverage unit would fall off with Cooper in place of Ventrone? I don't think so. Ventrone hasn't stood out. One guy does not make or break the special teams unit. The point is we more than covered our asses with special teams aces and could have afforded to keep a talented guy around that can again also play special teams.

Of course physical measurables don't make a player. But you can't teach the speed/height/weight combination. And again, he was more than a physically talented player. He obviously was showing he could play some football, which is why we wanted to place him on the PS and why the Chiefs swooped him up.

I would have preferred Cam Johnson over Ventrone as well. Can play special teams and olb depth is very important. And we don't know who would have been the next guy up had Ventrone not made the team. You say Cooper would have still been cut. How do you know? You have inside information? Cooper was on the bubble if we wanted to keep him on the practice squad. Meanwhile, we don't even know if Cam Johnson for sure would have been put on the PS, since we traded him.

The 49ers made sure that the coverage unit got back to its 2011 form by concentrating roster spots on it. However, they did this at the expense of losing young, talented players that could help the team in the future. In hindsight it is easy to see that keeping Cooper over Ventrone would have been the wiser decision. I hope you can concede that. But even at the time, I would have kept the younger, more talented, and more versatile guy over an older player that plays strictly special teams, especially considering we have a number of corners who contracts expire after this year. I understand the reasoning by us to go ultra conservative on keeping so many ST aces, but it was overboard and a mistake.

You can't blame Harbaalke or Brad Seely for the decision as all coaches in the NFL miss on things all the time, but you definitely can admit that they missed on this. Hopefully they learn from this and decide to not take a risk of stashing a young talented and versatile player on the PS in favor of an older one trick pony.
Well to be fair, it seems like everyone on KC's D is playing really well

Lets see how the rookie will fair when facing welker or decker
  • AmpLee
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Cooper just got burned. Really really bad.
9ers value experience at many positions...CB seems to be one where they go out and try to find FAs to fill in while younger guys grown into starters. With Rogers (9), Aso (11) Brown (7) and Wright (7) seem to be holding spots for Culliver (3), Brock (4), and Cox (3) to develop. Or will they bring in more FAs when these guys sign elsewhere?

Culliver and Cox may be the CBs of the future but I still see a high draft choice being used here next year.
They chose Darryl Morris over him, I wonder why? Is Morris a ST stud or something?
Good question Kowboy...hope it was a good choice for the long run. Seems pretty bad up to now. Morris has a faster 40 time (4.29) but is shorter.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Good question Kowboy...hope it was a good choice for the long run. Seems pretty bad up to now. Morris has a faster 40 time (4.29) but is shorter.

They didn't choose Morris over Cooper. They had cut both players at the final cutdowns with the hope of stashing one or both on the PS. Before they could sign Cooper to the PS (assuming they were going to), KC signed him on to their 53-man roster, is how I understood it.
Originally posted by LottDMontanaO:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Good question Kowboy...hope it was a good choice for the long run. Seems pretty bad up to now. Morris has a faster 40 time (4.29) but is shorter.

They didn't choose Morris over Cooper. They had cut both players at the final cutdowns with the hope of stashing one or both on the PS. Before they could sign Cooper to the PS (assuming they were going to), KC signed him on to their 53-man roster, is how I understood it.

This doe. I still feel like there was some behind the scenes stuff perhaps in relation to the AJ and Baldwin trade where our FO threw KC's a bone. Total speculation but we definitely got the better end of the WR trade, and a hint that Cooper was pretty good could have been dropped in the course of conversations. Just seems like our FO's are buddy buddy with eachother and while it could of been coincidence KC picks him up since we played them in preseason... still seems odd.
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Cooper just got burned. Really really bad.

I saw it too. Happens to everyone. Overall he is having a good game though. I'm still not upset over losing him though. I do think that in the future we may choose the youth/lower salary over the experience
It's not just losing cooper. Now they're looking to extend brown. I actually like brown a lot more than most people here, but now we're paying more money to the CB position than we should be doing. With so much money going to our studs, and having so many studs, you have to create roster rollover in some fashion to not get worked into a corner with the salary cap.

We've proven we can draft corners. We should never be letting young corners go so we can keep an old nnamdi, and old Rogers, and now brown who will probably be a step or two slower by the end of his next deal.

We shouldn't be signing older corners. We should be drafting and developing corners. We should be signing WRs to deals since we can't draft one.

Poor move by baalke, he's a ninja. But I don't think he has the only voice. I think Fangio is obsessed with veterans, at the expense of cooper and our salary cap. For those who said cooper wouldn't play, it doesn't matter. You don't give up young players with upside just to keep 3 other corners who have done very little for us, in cox, nnamdi and wright
[ Edited by Big_Daddy on Nov 3, 2013 at 1:43 PM ]