LT- Johnathan Martin- bullying inside Dolphins locker room

If your daughter was a stripper and she came home one day complaining about guys touching her all the time, other dancers making fun of her body, and being bullied into sharing the cost of bottles all the time; what would you tell her?

STOP DANCING! Right?

Or would you tell her that that kind of stuff is inappropriate actions at a work place and get a lawyer?

Originally posted by 49erMike:
Yes, because masterbating during a meeting is "keeping things under control". Walsh was fortunate he didn't have a "Martin" on any of his teams. That's your SB winning formula.

I find it amusing that the ones talking s**t about Incognito are leaving Haley out.

LOL! I brought up Haley as an example...then you accuse me of not wanting to talk about Haley? Your post went off the logic track at that point.

From Young2Rice: "As for your last statement, why are players who support Ritche "weak minded?" Are the niners' players who supported Brooks when he assaulted a teammate weak minded? What about those who supported Aldon after he wrapped his car around a tree and is being charged with felony weaponds? They are just supporting a teammate in trouble when the media, with no knowledge of the situation, attempt to pass judgement to sell print. The fact that not many on that team are supporting Martin speaks volumes."


I can give your examples of folks not stepping in to stop bullies all day long--at various ages, for all sorts of reasons. Research Catherine "Kitty" Genovese, which is the most famous case in my lifetime, to learn about "bystander apathy."

Further from Young2Rice "As for the classmate example, these aren't kids. They are adults."


The Kitty Genovese example above involves people of all ages who could have saved a life if they had only picked up a phone and called police, or answered the door and allowed a victim sanctuary from her eventual killer. She screamed in the street and people closed their blinds...one side of human nature. I asked a group of people last year what they would do in a similar, but less lethal, situation and it was 70/30 that they would mind their own business. This is an example of my use of the term weak minded.

Standing up to bullies sounds easy on paper but it tends to be difficult for many people...sadly, even football players.

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by English:

Leaving the team and the game he has trained for and which pays his salary is scarcely a hissy fit. It may be an extremely brave act or an extremely desperate one. And you demean it with a stupid phrase.

Hopefully, you are never in a position where such an option appears the only solution. In the meantime keep the personal remarks out of what is a somewhat emotional thread.

what personal remarks?

yes, I think a grown man who got upset and left the team because a few of his teammates pulled an innocent prank on him is enough for me to call it a hissy fit.

"Like I said, grow up".

And if you think all that happened to Martin is an innocent prank, I don't know what to say to you at all. If it all happened to you, I wonder how you would feel.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by 49erMike:

Yes, because masterbating during a meeting is "keeping things under control". Walsh was fortunate he didn't have a "Martin" on any of his teams. That's your SB winning formula.

I find it amusing that the ones talking s**t about Incognito are leaving Haley out.

LOL! I brought up Haley as an example...then you accuse me of not wanting to talk about Haley? Your post went off the logic track at that point.

From Young2Rice: "As for your last statement, why are players who support Ritche "weak minded?" Are the niners' players who supported Brooks when he assaulted a teammate weak minded? What about those who supported Aldon after he wrapped his car around a tree and is being charged with felony weaponds? They are just supporting a teammate in trouble when the media, with no knowledge of the situation, attempt to pass judgement to sell print. The fact that not many on that team are supporting Martin speaks volumes."


I can give your examples of folks not stepping in to stop bullies all day long--at various ages, for all sorts of reasons. Research Catherine "Kitty" Genovese, which is the most famous case in my lifetime, to learn about "bystander apathy."

Further from Young2Rice "As for the classmate example, these aren't kids. They are adults."


The Kitty Genovese example above involves people of all ages who could have saved a life if they had only picked up a phone and called police, or answered the door and allowed a victim sanctuary from her eventual killer. She screamed in the street and people closed their blinds...one side of human nature. I asked a group of people last year what they would do in a similar, but less lethal, situation and it was 70/30 that they would mind their own business. This is an example of my use of the term weak minded.

Standing up to bullies sounds easy on paper but it tends to be difficult for many people...sadly, even football players.

You brought up Haley as an example of how the 49ers kept him in contro,l thus leading to Superbowls. That is NOT what happened. Might want to check your logic.

Originally posted by 49erMike:
You brought up Haley as an example of how the 49ers kept him in contro,l thus leading to Superbowls. That is NOT what happend.

1) Haley was/is mentally ill.
2) He was diagnosed and treated.
3) Players he respected were able to keep him from physically hurting coaches and players.
4) He was eventually off the team and marauding elsewhere.
5) He is not an example of 9er virtue.
6) He was not made a "team" enforcer.
7) No one quit the team because of him.
8) Romanowski, your example, punched him...which did not end his harassment.

Not sure what your point is...the niners of the 80s weren't perfect angels? Or should we now use Haley to excuse any current players from conduct code violations? The team bent over backwards to help players, even hiring Harry Edwards...a very progressive step. Miami did the opposite evidently.

1) So are we sure Incognito isn't mentally ill?
2) I don't understand how you can be 100% sure if Martin was attacked, within the locker room, that NO ONE would've helped.
3) No one quit the team because they didn't have any "Martins" on the team.
4) Romo has said on radio that when he punched Haley, the p***y calling stopped.
5) what about Walsh bringing in Gogan?

My point is you are putting the Walsh locker room on a pedi stool when they were covering up the same issues and had the same type of players on the team.

Originally posted by 49erMike:
1) So are we sure Incognito isn't mentally ill?
2) I don't understand how you can be 100% sure if Martin was attacked, within the locker room, that NO ONE would've helped.
3) No one quit the team because they didn't have any "Martins" on the team.
4) Romo has said on radio that when he punched Haley, the p***y calling stopped.
5) what about Walsh bringing in Gogan?

My point is you are putting the Walsh locker room on a pedi stool when they were covering up the same issues and had the same type of players on the team.

1) I'm pretty sure Incognito is mentally ill and the team management makes him a team leader...just sounds anti-professional to me.
2) Martin was attacked on social media...avenue of cowards and bullies. Did he share this with the team? Don't know but would doubt it.
3) They didn't have to quit the team because the coaches were actively working to correct the problem and they saw this...the weren't left hanging out to dry.
4) Yes, he said he cured the problem...and how did that work out for Seifert and the rest of the team? In Romo's world it's dog eat dog and to hell with anyone who can't stick up for himself. What was Seifert suppose to do? Call Haley out and punch him? Get fired for hitting a player?
5) Walsh had confidence that he could handle almost any player and he usually did. This caused him to give guys a chance and it often worked. I don't recall Gogan being a problem.

I'm not putting the 9er locker room on a pedestal, but the organization. They acted in a professional manner in almost every way and have been studied by management researchers for this. Miami is on the opposite end of professionalism...there is little to none on that team.

My management professors used the 9ers and the Raiders as examples of two ways to manage effectively. Al Davis ran a very informal, one man operation; whereas the 9ers ran an organizational approach, bringing in really sharp people to handle specific issues--Harry Edwards, Policy, MacVey, Walsh and so many other, less high-profile employees helped the team run smoothly. It wasn't until Dr. York came in and dismantled this set-up that the team really plummeted. He went to the Al Davis approach putting Mike Nolan in charge. As we found out...Mike Nolan is not Al Davis.

Double post.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by 49erMike:

1) So are we sure Incognito isn't mentally ill?
2) I don't understand how you can be 100% sure if Martin was attacked, within the locker room, that NO ONE would've helped.
3) No one quit the team because they didn't have any "Martins" on the team.
4) Romo has said on radio that when he punched Haley, the p***y calling stopped.
5) what about Walsh bringing in Gogan?

My point is you are putting the Walsh locker room on a pedi stool when they were covering up the same issues and had the same type of players on the team.

1) I'm pretty sure Incognito is mentally ill and the team management makes him a team leader...just sounds anti-professional to me.
2) Martin was attacked on social media...avenue of cowards and bullies. Did he share this with the team? Don't know but would doubt it.
3) They didn't have to quit the team because the coaches were actively working to correct the problem and they saw this...the weren't left hanging out to dry.
4) Yes, he said he cured the problem...and how did that work out for Seifert and the rest of the team? In Romo's world it's dog eat dog and to hell with anyone who can't stick up for himself. What was Seifert suppose to do? Call Haley out and punch him? Get fired for hitting a player?
5) Walsh had confidence that he could handle almost any player and he usually did. This caused him to give guys a chance and it often worked. I don't recall Gogan being a problem.

I'm not putting the 9er locker room on a pedestal, but the organization. They acted in a professional manner in almost every way and have been studied by management researchers for this. Miami is on the opposite end of professionalism...there is little to none on that team.

My management professors used the 9ers and the Raiders as examples of two ways to manage effectively. Al Davis ran a very informal, one man operation; whereas the 9ers ran an organizational approach, bringing in really sharp people to handle specific issues--Harry Edwards, Policy, MacVey, Walsh and so many other, less high-profile employees helped the team run smoothly. It wasn't until Dr. York came in and dismantled this set-up that the team really plummeted. He went to the Al Davis approach putting Mike Nolan in charge. As we found out...Mike Nolan is not Al Davis.

- at least we agree Incognito is mentally off too lol
- Martin was "attacked" by texts that were jokes (in very poor taste) there is no telling what kind of stuff Haley would've texted if he was off his meds and that technology existed then.
- or you could argue that no one was as mentally weak as Martin. Matt Millen stated he hated playing with Haley. He could've snapped at any time. Romo could've snapped as well.
- Ihave to say it worked out well for Romo because the harassment stopped for him.
- Kevin Gogan was on SI as the dirtiest player in football, yet Walsh brought him in.

Harry Edwards? Come on. Ask some of the players how they really feel about this guy.

I completely agree that Walsh was nothing but class. But I think Martin would've blown the whistle on That locker room as well. My point is that some people just don't belong in certain occupations. Nolan....s**t *happy thoughts happy thoughts* lol

Originally posted by 49erMike:

- at least we agree Incognito is mentally off too lol
- Martin was "attacked" by texts that were jokes (in very poor taste) there is no telling what kind of stuff Haley would've texted if he was off his meds and that technology existed then.
- or you could argue that no one was as mentally weak as Martin. Matt Millen stated he hated playing with Haley. He could've snapped at any time. Romo could've snapped as well.
- Ihave to say it worked out well for Romo because the harassment stopped for him.
- Kevin Gogan was on SI as the dirtiest player in football, yet Walsh brought him in.

Harry Edwards? Come on. Ask some of the players how they really feel about this guy.

I completely agree that Walsh was nothing but class. But I think Martin would've blown the whistle on That locker room as well. My point is that some people just don't belong in certain occupations. Nolan....s**t *happy thoughts happy thoughts* lol

You got a problem with Harry Edwards? Dude has been with the team forever.

Originally posted by 49erMike:
Another thing I don't get is everything that comes out in favor of Incognito is considered "CYA", while everything coming out in favor of Martin is considered factual in the way the media is portraying it.

And yes, I think incognito is just as big a dbag as Martin is a puss (for NFL football)

The problem is that the stories don't match. Hartline says that Martin played the voicemail for everyone in the locker room, Tannehill said that he had never heard of any voicemail, now all of a sudden Hartline took back his comment about the voicemail being shared in the locker room, one player says that Incognito swore at everybody and was loud and rude to everyone, not just Martin, then Tannehill comes in and says that he's never heard Incognito swear or talk down to anyone.....it just gets to be too much. Each day the legend of Saint Richie seems to grow within that Dolphins locker room, within a week, they'll be claiming that Incognito and Martin were riding a tandem bike down the Miami Beach boardwalk and that Incognito spent his free time helping old ladies cross the street. It is starting to be too much, its not hard to tell when someone is trying to play you.


Combine that with the original reports coming from the Miami organization that Incognito had been a "model citizen" with them, then we learn that he had sexually harassed a female volunteer at a team event and held official OL meetings at Big Louie's House of Tata's.

Originally posted by 49erMike:
- at least we agree Incognito is mentally off too lol
- Martin was "attacked" by texts that were jokes (in very poor taste) there is no telling what kind of stuff Haley would've texted if he was off his meds and that technology existed then.
- or you could argue that no one was as mentally weak as Martin. Matt Millen stated he hated playing with Haley. He could've snapped at any time. Romo could've snapped as well.
- Ihave to say it worked out well for Romo because the harassment stopped for him.
- Kevin Gogan was on SI as the dirtiest player in football, yet Walsh brought him in.

Harry Edwards? Come on. Ask some of the players how they really feel about this guy.

I completely agree that Walsh was nothing but class. But I think Martin would've blown the whistle on That locker room as well. My point is that some people just don't belong in certain occupations. Nolan....s**t *happy thoughts happy thoughts* lol

Walsh did? Are you sure about that?

Originally posted by 49erMike:
- at least we agree Incognito is mentally off too lol
- Martin was "attacked" by texts that were jokes (in very poor taste) there is no telling what kind of stuff Haley would've texted if he was off his meds and that technology existed then.
- or you could argue that no one was as mentally weak as Martin. Matt Millen stated he hated playing with Haley. He could've snapped at any time. Romo could've snapped as well.
- Ihave to say it worked out well for Romo because the harassment stopped for him.
- Kevin Gogan was on SI as the dirtiest player in football, yet Walsh brought him in.

Harry Edwards? Come on. Ask some of the players how they really feel about this guy.

I completely agree that Walsh was nothing but class. But I think Martin would've blown the whistle on That locker room as well. My point is that some people just don't belong in certain occupations. Nolan....s**t *happy thoughts happy thoughts* lol

We know Martin was attacked by social media, even though the team and Incognito denied it, because the evidence is/was available to read. We can't know how much went on in the locker room or out of the team areas because they were verbal and unless someone filmed them or taped them there won't be any hard evidence.

But since everyone denied there was any problem...until the evidence was released, I don't rely on honesty from the team or from Incognito. If you'll remember, the team indicated that Martin had a personal problem unrelated to the team.

There have been careers ruined by this type of harassment but most players understood they should just put their tails between their legs and slink away. Martin actually made a stand, even though it was to leave the team in dramatic fashion. Is he doing so from courage? Or fear? We won't know until more comes out but I'm not in the mind to blame him for this mess...it's Miami management who made the mistake of using a bully, insane guy to lead the team. Now they can live with this and try to make the best choices they can...which I doubt are very good considering their past decisions.

Gogan--dirty player is different than insane team mate. Conrad Dobler was one of the dirtiest players in the history of the NFL but he didn't attack team mates...same with Gogan. I don't like dirty play but that's not what is being discussed here...at least by me.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196141/brian-hartline-says-jonathan-martin-was-laughing-at-voicemail

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24196141/brian-hartline-says-jonathan-martin-was-laughing-at-voicemail