How many games will the Chiefs win PYMWYMI

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
It seems to me that Joe is an example of posters who have created a culture of negativity putting Smith in the center of all the misfortune the 49ers have undergone over the past twelve or so year...until Singletary was fired. They can't recognize that Smith actually played well post Raye and under Harbaugh as that would make they examine other areas of team play...which is either too difficult or strays from the mantra.

It's super easy to be negative about any player in the NFL if you have that desire.

it seems to have ratcheted up more for many of the anit-alex posters with the play of kaepernick this season...he came in last half of 2012 and was being proclaimed by many on the board as elite----he hasnt put up elite numbers this year, they are confronted with not only the fact that they were wrong about 9-0 alex smith but also their proclamations of greatness for kaepernick (which still may happen--just has not happened yet in my view)...leading to a lashing out...that is my theory at least

Originally posted by JiksJuicy:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
This...you can do it all day Joe? I thought it was your lifetime hobby! Bash Smith, take a shower, bash Smith brush teeth, bash Smith go to work...

I don't consider anything that Joe posts as "bashing". Bashing to me is like "alex sucks! blah blah blah" without any logical argument.

What's being explained is Alex's style of play. Which is highly respectable, because it's enough to beat all the mediocre teams in the league. But when it comes to championship football, a QB must have an "attacking" mentality. That is the only thing that separates Alex from the upper echelon QBs, imo.

Name me 3 of these QB's Alex has lost too in the past 3 seasons... Eli(twice)? Flaaco? Romo? Skelton? Ponder? That's his 6 losses in 3 years. How many of thes are "upper echelon"?

Now...What about Brees, Rodgers, Russel Wilson(last 49er win), Roethlisburger, Romo, Vick(twice), Stafford, Eli(twice 2-2) he has beaten? This logic makes no sense and has no basis for argument. He's done it multiple times, more often than not actually.

i posted a question on the kaepernick thread as to whther kaepernick could be considered an elite qb if he doesnt not put up rodgers or brees type numbers...the response was that he didnt have to....one poster said that elite was measured by kapernick besting rodgers (2X) brees and brady in head to head match ups...as you point smith has done so as well

another poster said....

Originally posted by hofer36:on the question of stats, does kaepernick have to put up brees or Rodgers type passing yards to be considered elite?No. Most importantly he has to win. Read more at http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/172666-kaepernick-thread-2013-14-season/page805/#jO6u4geTE0hOWTF3.99

6-2 is great, as is 9-0

other criteria offered was 3rd down production and red zone production... i would add producing in the clutch as another criteria to look at

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
^ Can't speak for Facebook.. I don't do that stuff. I hazard to say that no one likes and supports Alex as much as I do.. and I can honestly say that I am fine with how things turned out.

Would I have preferred to keep Alex and trade Kaep off? Yes.. probably so.. and I can easily see how that may not be the right decision.. but it could turn out to be. No one can truly say. What I can say is, I like and believe in Kaep well enough... I just like Alex more. But I don't mind adding, it has been definitely a double-your-fun season watching both SF and KC. So all in all, no hard feelings to bother with there. The problem with these threads is that there are about 5 posters that can't let go of the bitterness during the wars of old. They are either humiliated by Alex's successes.. or just angry at other posters from long ago disputes.

Fair post. And consider yourself fortunate to have 2 teams to cheer for. I tried (because I like Alex the person) but I couldn't do it.

And I sure hope the bolded isn't the case.

Originally posted by JiksJuicy:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by JiksJuicy:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
This...you can do it all day Joe? I thought it was your lifetime hobby! Bash Smith, take a shower, bash Smith brush teeth, bash Smith go to work...

I don't consider anything that Joe posts as "bashing". Bashing to me is like "alex sucks! blah blah blah" without any logical argument.

What's being explained is Alex's style of play. Which is highly respectable, because it's enough to beat all the mediocre teams in the league. But when it comes to championship football, a QB must have an "attacking" mentality. That is the only thing that separates Alex from the upper echelon QBs, imo.

Name me 3 of these QB's Alex has lost too in the past 3 seasons... Eli(twice)? Flaaco? Romo? Skelton? Ponder? That's his 6 losses in 3 years. How many of thes are "upper echelon"?

Now...What about Brees, Rodgers, Russel Wilson(last 49er win), Roethlisburger, Romo, Vick(twice), Stafford, Eli(twice 2-2) he has beaten? This logic makes no sense and has no basis for argument. He's done it multiple times, more often than not actually.

I'm not basing it off head to head wins/losses. I'm basing it on accomplishments, the elites have their playoff wins, and most importantly rings.


At some point you must ask, why would a QB guru like Harbaugh give up on Alex mid-way through the season when he was 6-2 as a starter? The only logical explanation would be that Harbaugh was convinced Alex did not have what it takes to win at the tournament level.

Before the injury both Baalke and Harbaugh said they had no thought what so ever of benching Alex.

My theory is that Kaep. was the future regardless. After he played so well against the Bears it was kind of pointless to put Alex back in there. Why not get Kaepernick the experience? Why play Alex when I'm pretty sure they were set as Kaep as the starting QB the next year? Kaep has more tools, a better arm, more mobility, and is a bit more willing to stretch the field than Alex, that's no secret. Kaep was that elite QB that every team/fan wanted while Alex was more of an above average QB. Harbaugh said he had to go with his gut, and while this is very very debatable and I don't care to get into it, but in the end it could have been the wrong call. I felt all along we were SB bound with Alex. But again let's not get into that.

It makes sense to me. I don't think that's a hit on Alex, but Kaep has more upside. Kaep has potential to be top 3 QB's in the league while Alex will stay around top 10.

they also looked at the fact that smith in 2013 would be $8 million plus on their cap---goign with kaepernick allows them to free up more cap space as well as get picks for smith..it was a no brainer...also smith was not their guy, he was picked by a prior regime....there was alot that went into the decision, including their appreciation of kaeprnicks great potential and smith's limitations

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by Nuns:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Get him a probowl OL and he will play the same...wait...he had that and he did. Give him a near 1000 yard receiver and Probowl TE, oh wait...

You are acting as if Alex wasn't one of the top 5 efficient QBs when he did have that pro bowl TE and OL.

In 2011, the pass offense was ranked 13th in efficiency, and we were a fumble away from a SB with a yr 1 offense.

IN 2012, the pass offense was ranked 5th in efficiency with that "pro bowl OL" and Alex was the leading QB in pass rating.

... but you don't care for THE WAY he plays... even though the coaches want(ed) this play from him... even though Andy Reid gave up TWO second rd picks to get a QB with this type of play.

This...you can do it all day Joe? I thought it was your lifetime hobby! Bash Smith, take a shower, bash Smith brush teeth, bash Smith go to work...

I think a complete 2012 would've given more people a full view of the Championship-caliber Alex Smith. I've seen more than enough to know this guy is a gamer, especially in post-season play and big games. He has a great chance to get a Super Bowl soon in KC, in my opinion.

People forget his last few games starting were basically flawless. When you have performances like that, and people still naysay and doubt, it's obvious that those entrenched in that opposing view simply are never going to change -- at best they'll slightly modify their view to look a little less inaccurate. But.. it just is what it is.

I told some friends in KC to expect this. The team will rarely win a blow out. The defense will become the best in the league because of fewer turnovers and more TOP type offense. The fans won't fall in love with Alex, and in fact there will be a contingent that despises his style of play. You will win games…..

I feel like the bottom line is that Alex consistently puts his team in position to win. I feel like because of his lack of big-time stats, he is one of the most unheralded and underrated playmakers -- yes, playmaker -- in the league. KC fans should be excited. If their team can do this with their only elite offensive threat being Jamaal Charles and maybe Bowe, think of what a revamped arsenal with added weapons through the draft/FA plus another year in Reid's system could do?

good point they wont have a 2nd rd pick to fill in some of the holes..on the up side they have the development of aj jenkins to look forward to

Originally posted by hofer36:
i posted a question on the kaepernick thread as to whther kaepernick could be considered an elite qb if he doesnt not put up rodgers or brees type numbers...the response was that he didnt have to....one poster said that elite was measured by kapernick besting rodgers (2X) brees and brady in head to head match ups...as you point smith has done so as well

To be fair, I was speaking of head to head "shootouts". Which Kaep displayed in his games in New England, throughout the playoffs, and week 1 of this season. Those are "elite" type games.

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by verb1der:
I don't consider anything that Joe posts as "bashing". Bashing to me is like "alex sucks! blah blah blah" without any logical argument.

What's being explained is Alex's style of play. Which is highly respectable, because it's enough to beat all the mediocre teams in the league. But when it comes to championship football, a QB must have an "attacking" mentality. That is the only thing that separates Alex from the upper echelon QBs, imo.

Lots of assumptions here, man. And forgetfulness. 17-19, toe to toe with Brees, 4th quarter comebacks, etc.

To say that Smith does not have that mentality is an overstatement, IMO.

I would agree that he is less "attacking" in the throw it deep and all over the place sense than some QBs, to be sure.

My bad, I didn't mean to discredit his 4th qtr comebacks. That Lions game in 2011 was amazing!

But yes, I was referring more of his reluctance to take shots downfield.

Look at this year, all of a sudden Vernon Davis is deep threat all over the field.

i would disagree with your comment bolded above....vernon davis was a deep threat with smith at qb to--he was the receiver smith looked to feel most comfortable throwing deep to, and frankly he was the one that had the most speed to get past a db...davis scored 13 tds in a season, setting a record for tes that gronkowski broke...smith hit davis downfield in the saints play off game, several times...hit him long the next week vs giants for games 1st score...i remember him hitting davis deep on a long pass vs the rams.....for a time they were deadly deep down the field on the seam route, until defenses started taking that route away (or for some reason they stopped throwing it)

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by hofer36:
i posted a question on the kaepernick thread as to whther kaepernick could be considered an elite qb if he doesnt not put up rodgers or brees type numbers...the response was that he didnt have to....one poster said that elite was measured by kapernick besting rodgers (2X) brees and brady in head to head match ups...as you point smith has done so as well

To be fair, I was speaking of head to head "shootouts". Which Kaep displayed in his games in New England, throughout the playoffs, and week 1 of this season. Those are "elite" type games.

they are no more elite games than smith vs brees in 2011 playoffs, or smith vs rodgers in 2012 opener

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by verb1der:
I don't consider anything that Joe posts as "bashing". Bashing to me is like "alex sucks! blah blah blah" without any logical argument.

What's being explained is Alex's style of play. Which is highly respectable, because it's enough to beat all the mediocre teams in the league. But when it comes to championship football, a QB must have an "attacking" mentality. That is the only thing that separates Alex from the upper echelon QBs, imo.

Lots of assumptions here, man. And forgetfulness. 17-19, toe to toe with Brees, 4th quarter comebacks, etc.

To say that Smith does not have that mentality is an overstatement, IMO.

I would agree that he is less "attacking" in the throw it deep and all over the place sense than some QBs, to be sure.

My bad, I didn't mean to discredit his 4th qtr comebacks. That Lions game in 2011 was amazing!

But yes, I was referring more of his reluctance to take shots downfield.

Look at this year, all of a sudden Vernon Davis is deep threat all over the field.

i would disagree with your comment bolded above....vernon davis was a deep threat with smith at qb to--he was the receiver smith looked to feel most comfortable throwing deep to, and frankly he was the one that had the most speed to get past a db...davis scored 13 tds in a season, setting a record for tes that gronkowski broke...smith hit davis downfield in the saints play off game, several times...hit him long the next week vs giants for games 1st score...i remember him hitting davis deep on a long pass vs the rams.....for a time they were deadly deep down the field on the seam route, until defenses started taking that route away (or for some reason they stopped throwing it)

VD was a threat, but not as much as he is now. That's why I said "all over the field", whereas with Alex it was primarily the seam route. And they stopped throwing it, because defenses adjusted.

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by hofer36:
i posted a question on the kaepernick thread as to whther kaepernick could be considered an elite qb if he doesnt not put up rodgers or brees type numbers...the response was that he didnt have to....one poster said that elite was measured by kapernick besting rodgers (2X) brees and brady in head to head match ups...as you point smith has done so as well

To be fair, I was speaking of head to head "shootouts". Which Kaep displayed in his games in New England, throughout the playoffs, and week 1 of this season. Those are "elite" type games.

they are no more elite games than smith vs brees in 2011 playoffs, or smith vs rodgers in 2012 opener

2012 game i give AS credit

but not a lead we lost in 2011 with 5 turnovers to help us

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by hofer36:
i posted a question on the kaepernick thread as to whther kaepernick could be considered an elite qb if he doesnt not put up rodgers or brees type numbers...the response was that he didnt have to....one poster said that elite was measured by kapernick besting rodgers (2X) brees and brady in head to head match ups...as you point smith has done so as well

To be fair, I was speaking of head to head "shootouts". Which Kaep displayed in his games in New England, throughout the playoffs, and week 1 of this season. Those are "elite" type games.

they are no more elite games than smith vs brees in 2011 playoffs, or smith vs rodgers in 2012 opener

During Smith's era, the consensus among experts and analysts was always "49ers will not win in a shoot out.". That is no longer the case. That's the biggest difference between the battles we are speaking of here.

To become "elite", one must be able to bring big guns to a gun fight. Kaep has proven that, why do you think he kisses his biceps all the time!

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
^ Can't speak for Facebook.. I don't do that stuff. I hazard to say that no one likes and supports Alex as much as I do.. and I can honestly say that I am fine with how things turned out.

Would I have preferred to keep Alex and trade Kaep off? Yes.. probably so.. and I can easily see how that may not be the right decision.. but it could turn out to be. No one can truly say. What I can say is, I like and believe in Kaep well enough... I just like Alex more. But I don't mind adding, it has been definitely a double-your-fun season watching both SF and KC. So all in all, no hard feelings to bother with there. The problem with these threads is that there are about 5 posters that can't let go of the bitterness during the wars of old. They are either humiliated by Alex's successes.. or just angry at other posters from long ago disputes.

Not angry at all. I just want to point out false statements by some that try to justify a weak QB by a team stat.

BTW, the excuse of drops are tiring and false. The QBR factors in drops and does not count those passes against a QB. Alex's QBR, not so good. This is what I mean. All but one claim you have made about why Alex isn't producing the "way he is capable of" has been false and refuted. The ONE claim that is correct is that he does not turn the ball over.

My feelings on Alex are complex. It wasn't his fault his was picked #1 in the draft. But, that set expectations. And I wasn't happy with Garcia, only because I was spoiled by Montana/Young. I wasn't happy with Alex for the same reason, short of being Joe Montana, I wasn't going to be happy with anyone. And Alex at the helm during most of an awful decade stretch of the Niners, was anything but ideal. I never bashed Alex when he was the starter, but some saw me as that as I reacted to the Kap bashing when Alex was benched.

Kinda reminds me of views of Presidents. Some think our last President was our worst ever. Some think the current President is the worst ever. But regardless, it is our President and one should get behind him. Same with QB.

An I'm a Niner fan over a player fan. When Montana went to the Chiefs, I was done with him. Same with Rice, Lott and Craig.

And a part of me is really happy for him, a part of me is done with him and a part of me just cares about our draft pick with the Chiefs.

And given our current situation, anyone who roots for Alex now, is rooting against the Niners getting an optimal pick. Which feels really anti-Niner to me now.

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by hofer36:
i posted a question on the kaepernick thread as to whther kaepernick could be considered an elite qb if he doesnt not put up rodgers or brees type numbers...the response was that he didnt have to....one poster said that elite was measured by kapernick besting rodgers (2X) brees and brady in head to head match ups...as you point smith has done so as well

To be fair, I was speaking of head to head "shootouts". Which Kaep displayed in his games in New England, throughout the playoffs, and week 1 of this season. Those are "elite" type games.

they are no more elite games than smith vs brees in 2011 playoffs, or smith vs rodgers in 2012 opener

During Smith's era, the consensus among experts and analysts was always "49ers will not win in a shoot out.". That is no longer the case. That's the biggest difference between the battles we are speaking of here.

To become "elite", one must be able to bring big guns to a gun fight. Kaep has proven that, why do you think he kisses his biceps all the time!

i would say the niners saints game was a shootout

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by hofer36:
i posted a question on the kaepernick thread as to whther kaepernick could be considered an elite qb if he doesnt not put up rodgers or brees type numbers...the response was that he didnt have to....one poster said that elite was measured by kapernick besting rodgers (2X) brees and brady in head to head match ups...as you point smith has done so as well

To be fair, I was speaking of head to head "shootouts". Which Kaep displayed in his games in New England, throughout the playoffs, and week 1 of this season. Those are "elite" type games.

they are no more elite games than smith vs brees in 2011 playoffs, or smith vs rodgers in 2012 opener

2012 game i give AS credit

but not a lead we lost in 2011 with 5 turnovers to help us

there were no turnovers in the last couple of minutes of that game when smith led the team to 2 tds? but still you cant give credit---im not surprised....wont give creidt for putting the ball on the money with 14 seconds left for winning score....because the 5 turnovers made that happen...