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How many games will the Chiefs win PYMWYMI

How many games will the Chiefs win PYMWYMI

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Joecool:
And didn't Crabs come through for Kap? But I thought Crabs wasn't a dependable WR before all that. Now let's get back to Bowe. So, how do you know Bowe can't come through if Alex must rely on him and force some throws? For some reason, it is Bowes lack of something that is keeping him from being an offensive force he he has already proven he can be that guy in past years? But it must have very little to do with the fact that Alex will go with a safer throw over sending a tougher, deeper throw in Bowes direction right? Your reasoning is because Bowe hasn't shown enough which is false because you are looking for a reason why his numbers are lower but do not want to admit that Smiths style is more about depending on certain areas of the field over others.

This isn't a bad thing about Alex. But, it isn't a great thing either. Had already predicted Bowes numbers will drop this year due to the style of play of his QB. It is okay to accept rthat QBs have specific styles and that a QB cannot or will not do everything and has comfort areas.

Dude... the strawman doesn't really work for me here. What I said was that so far and on numerous plays, Alex HAS thrown to a tightly covered Bowe.. and that Bowe has either dropped quite a few or they were nicely knocked away from Bowe by a DB. Some strong WRs cling onto these passes better than what Bowe has shown lately. There are also quite a few routes that Bowe has been lazy and less than sharp on... these have led to incomplete passes and in one case, an INT.

Bowe IS a very capable WR... but there have been more times than expected that he has been lazy or ineffective for what he is being paid to do.

These are not attacks on Bowe.. they are fair criticisms that he is capable of better. I hope this finally can conclude this whole conversation.

It's not a straw-man. My side of this is based on stats. Your case is that he's dropped the tight passes when thrown to and been lazy. My point is that he needs to be targeted more often on those as they are not high percentage plays. That is where Alex Smith and his style of play, which is not bad, comes in.

Did you know, Bowe has been targeted only 44 times, has 25 rec for ONLY 295 yds? That targeted number is 53rd on the list of NFL pass catchers.

For a reference: Vernon Davis has been targeted 43 times, has 26 catches for 466 yds.
Boldin has been targeted 56 times, 34 catches for 495 yards.

Looks to me it is about the type of passes the QB decides to throw to them.

So, does Vernon drop as many as Bowe also? It's about low percentage plays and throwing the ball to those types of plays. It is obvious Bowe has mainly been thrown to on shorter routes and that directly relates to the comfort of his QB. I know you want to say play call but Reid has had a very good history of calling deep routes for WR's and Bowe has a very well known history of having a respectable average per catch.
[ Edited by Joecool on Oct 24, 2013 at 10:41 AM ]
an extra 2nd round pick is always a good thing ....cracks me up a lot of people thought we couldnt get anything for alex last year
...now we have a plethora of picks, and a few spots to fill ...always a good problem to have
Originally posted by Joecool:
It's not a straw-man. My side of this is based on stats. Your case is that he's dropped the tight passes when thrown to and been lazy. My point is that he needs to be targeted more often on those as they are not high percentage plays. That is where Alex Smith and his style of play, which is not bad, comes in.

Did you know, Bowe has been targeted only 44 times, has 25 rec for ONLY 295 yds? That targeted number is 53rd on the list of NFL pass catchers.

For a reference: Vernon Davis has been targeted 43 times, has 26 catches for 466 yds.
Boldin has been targeted 56 times, 34 catches for 495 yards.

Looks to me it is about the type of passes the QB decides to throw to them.

So, does Vernon drop as many as Bowe also? It's about low percentage plays and throwing the ball to those types of plays. It is obvious Bowe has mainly been thrown to on shorter routes and that directly relates to the comfort of his QB. I know you want to say play call but Reid has had a very good history of calling deep routes for WR's and Bowe has a very well known history of having a respectable average per catch.

Okay joe... whatever you say... whatever will end this painful conversation. Said it once.. I'll say it one more time... I don't give a fig about who is being targeted... Bowe seems fine with winning games above all else... and he and I agree on that much.
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
an extra 2nd round pick is always a good thing ....cracks me up a lot of people thought we couldnt get anything for alex last year
...now we have a plethora of picks, and a few spots to fill ...always a good problem to have

I don't know who didn't think we could get something for Alex but they were crazy. With the allure of this franchise and the way any of our discards or free agents find immediate work or cash in I couldn't fathom why one of the winningest QBs over the past 2 seasons wouldn't command value in a trade. Aside from that KC got great value on Alex with the contract we signed him to. They are 7-0 right now with an $8million QB. The coach might be making more than that. When you watch Alex play there aren't many eye popping plays but he just continues to be careful with the ball to make the smart safe play and his team is winning as he did here
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Joecool:
It's not a straw-man. My side of this is based on stats. Your case is that he's dropped the tight passes when thrown to and been lazy. My point is that he needs to be targeted more often on those as they are not high percentage plays. That is where Alex Smith and his style of play, which is not bad, comes in.

Did you know, Bowe has been targeted only 44 times, has 25 rec for ONLY 295 yds? That targeted number is 53rd on the list of NFL pass catchers.

For a reference: Vernon Davis has been targeted 43 times, has 26 catches for 466 yds.
Boldin has been targeted 56 times, 34 catches for 495 yards.

Looks to me it is about the type of passes the QB decides to throw to them.

So, does Vernon drop as many as Bowe also? It's about low percentage plays and throwing the ball to those types of plays. It is obvious Bowe has mainly been thrown to on shorter routes and that directly relates to the comfort of his QB. I know you want to say play call but Reid has had a very good history of calling deep routes for WR's and Bowe has a very well known history of having a respectable average per catch.

Okay joe... whatever you say... whatever will end this painful conversation. Said it once.. I'll say it one more time... I don't give a fig about who is being targeted... Bowe seems fine with winning games above all else... and he and I agree on that much.

Alex makes the smart safe play and he is winning games. It can be frustrating to watch and he doesn't take too many risks in order to make the splash plays but you can obviously win games with him. His play kind of rubs off on the team because the team tends to play smart and safe with very little margin for error. They are 7-0 so it has worked thus far
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Joecool:
It's not a straw-man. My side of this is based on stats. Your case is that he's dropped the tight passes when thrown to and been lazy. My point is that he needs to be targeted more often on those as they are not high percentage plays. That is where Alex Smith and his style of play, which is not bad, comes in.

Did you know, Bowe has been targeted only 44 times, has 25 rec for ONLY 295 yds? That targeted number is 53rd on the list of NFL pass catchers.

For a reference: Vernon Davis has been targeted 43 times, has 26 catches for 466 yds.
Boldin has been targeted 56 times, 34 catches for 495 yards.

Looks to me it is about the type of passes the QB decides to throw to them.

So, does Vernon drop as many as Bowe also? It's about low percentage plays and throwing the ball to those types of plays. It is obvious Bowe has mainly been thrown to on shorter routes and that directly relates to the comfort of his QB. I know you want to say play call but Reid has had a very good history of calling deep routes for WR's and Bowe has a very well known history of having a respectable average per catch.

Okay joe... whatever you say... whatever will end this painful conversation. Said it once.. I'll say it one more time... I don't give a fig about who is being targeted... Bowe seems fine with winning games above all else... and he and I agree on that much.

Alex makes the smart safe play and he is winning games. It can be frustrating to watch and he doesn't take too many risks in order to make the splash plays but you can obviously win games with him. His play kind of rubs off on the team because the team tends to play smart and safe with very little margin for error. They are 7-0 so it has worked thus far

Exactly! There is nothing wrong with Alex's style of play, however, the reason another player isn't "lighting it up" or playing to his ability is directly related to Alex's style of play, and not because the other player simply isn't as good as advertised.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Exactly! There is nothing wrong with Alex's style of play, however, the reason another player isn't "lighting it up" or playing to his ability is directly related to Alex's style of play, and not because the other player simply isn't as good as advertised.

Smith is not a down the field passer. He has taken more shots down the field recently than I remember seeing from him before.
It could become real interesting if he does improve that part of his game.
But, he will never be a gunslinger. It just isn't his style of play.

As his trust in Bowe improves, so should Bowe's stats.
Originally posted by Joecool:
None of those stats show the most important number. Targeted. I made this case about Crabtree 3 years ago about how effective he is per number of targets. Very few other WR's compared but Bowe was one of them who also was targeted a lower than usual number of times but still put up very respectable numbers.

Let me give you an example, in a season Brandon Marshall racked 1265 yards, he was targeted 183 times. In fact, he has had 3 seasons where he was targeted more than 170.

Bowe's best season of 1162 yards, he was targeted 132 times. His highest number of targets was his second year at 158.


This dude had an awesome season and some very respectable seasons. His last full season, 2011, he was ranked 13th in yards. This while being targeted less than 6 of the receivers ahead of him.

This is pretty funny. "He was ranked 13th...while being targeted less than 6 of the receivers ahead of him". So he was targeted MORE than 6 of the receivers ahead of him, too? That sounds like it's...completely normal.

And Targets are the result of GETTING OPEN. Covered guys aren't targeted as much as open guys. Bowe is a mediocre route-runner, and is sometimes lazy. He doesn't get separation, so he doesn't get the ball. And he's not at the level where you just throw it near him anyway, like you might for 5 or 6 other guys in the league.

Targets is not a legit argument unless the guy is open all the time. And he's not.
Originally posted by OKC49erFan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Exactly! There is nothing wrong with Alex's style of play, however, the reason another player isn't "lighting it up" or playing to his ability is directly related to Alex's style of play, and not because the other player simply isn't as good as advertised.

Smith is not a down the field passer. He has taken more shots down the field recently than I remember seeing from him before.
It could become real interesting if he does improve that part of his game.
But, he will never be a gunslinger. It just isn't his style of play.

As his trust in Bowe improves, so should Bowe's stats.

i dont believe this need trust a guy BS for any QB...it's his job to catch passes ! throw him the got damn ball
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by OKC49erFan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Exactly! There is nothing wrong with Alex's style of play, however, the reason another player isn't "lighting it up" or playing to his ability is directly related to Alex's style of play, and not because the other player simply isn't as good as advertised.

Smith is not a down the field passer. He has taken more shots down the field recently than I remember seeing from him before.
It could become real interesting if he does improve that part of his game.
But, he will never be a gunslinger. It just isn't his style of play.

As his trust in Bowe improves, so should Bowe's stats.

i dont believe this need trust a guy BS for any QB...it's his job to catch passes ! throw him the got damn ball
Oh, I don't care.
Both Crabtree and Bowe have diminished roles with Smith at QB.

Alex keeps it "safe" with dump offs a lot. We have known that.

Bowe didn't just become "bad".
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Do you guys realize what you are saying about Bowe?

McG: "Bowe can be all these things, he is good, just not special." Bowe's past stats have shown he is a top 10 NFL WR. He has ALREADY shown he is a legit target.

Dark Night: Mario Manningham? Really, you are comparing Bowe to a guy who has never surpassed 1000 yards and never caught more than 60 balls? I am talking about a receiver who is THE primary focus of a secondary. Mario was never this. He benefitted from Toomer or Nicks.

dj: "They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion." So, the opponent is in prevent and Bowe is going up against 2 defenders at the minimum and he has still put up top 10 numbers yet Alex isn't throwing to him because he isn't as good as advertised?


You guys have brought up things that actually MAKE Bowe a legit deep target. Let's see, he is accustomed to making catches deep vs double teams per dj. McGibblets said Alex spreads the ball and will throw the higher percentage which directly relates to Bowe not having top numbers yet it is actually because he's not good? And he can be a top receiver but doesn't realize Bowe has already proven he IS a top receiver. Another is a comparison to a complimentary receiver who's stats don't even compare?


Look fellas, it is a good thing for KC that Alex is a QB who prefers the shorter routes. That is a GOOD thing. But it doesn't mean Bowe is lazy or not a top level receiver. Why? Because he has proven he is. Why is it that all other positions are not good enough for why their numbers are not top tier type of numbers? Could it possibly have anything to do with the style of the QB?



Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Okay Joe... you win, if it makes you happy. Bowe is amazing, and his QB is failing him horribly!

We all happy now?

In truth though, and if you were really watching these games? You would see that Bowe has not been special.. has not been making the tough catches as much as a #1 should. He is a good WR, but plenty of times, he has given Alex reasons to not make throwing to him such an effort.

So we can really just per usual, agree to disagree and move on.

this seems like a conversation the last few years re crabtree--whose better joe, crabtree or bowe?
i have watched bowe alot since smith went to kc...i think crabtree is better---i recall one play vs texans where bowe was open downfield, the pass was behind him a bit but catchable...bowe caught it and had alot of clear field ahead of him, but couldnt keep his feet and went down

I think Bowe is better because he can be effective on more parts of the field. Look at how reliable Crabs became when he had a QB who wasn't afraid to throw to him (Kap) when the coverage was tight. Bowe has been putting up better numbers under worse conditions. Once he gets a QB who isn't afraid to throw those types of balls and his targeted increases to 170, Bowe would easily be a top 5 receiver.

crabtree was reliable before the qb change---though after the change his yards per game went up
and crabtree is much better than bowe in my eye test
The better the Chiefs do the better. That's a gramatical nightmare but you catch my drift.

Anything that helps us is good. The Chiefs suck and I'm waiting for the bubble to burst but lets get the required number of wins out of them first. That was my thinking early in the season.
Originally posted by csjwilkinson:
The better the Chiefs do the better. That's a gramatical nightmare but you catch my drift.

Anything that helps us is good. The Chiefs suck and I'm waiting for the bubble to burst but lets get the required number of wins out of them first. That was my thinking early in the season.

if you think the chiefs suck, well, maybe you should take up a new hobby
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by csjwilkinson:
The better the Chiefs do the better. That's a gramatical nightmare but you catch my drift.

Anything that helps us is good. The Chiefs suck and I'm waiting for the bubble to burst but lets get the required number of wins out of them first. That was my thinking early in the season.

if you think the chiefs suck, well, maybe you should take up a new hobby

Chiefs are very similar to 2011 Niners and that team went 13-3 and should have won the Super Bowl. Now at 7-0 they are very good but I don't think they can beat us even at 5-2