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Is the NFL ready for an Openly Gay Player

Is the NFL ready for an Openly Gay Player

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Uh yes.

You are just digging the hole deeper.

I likened it to Black QBs in the NFL, not the entire civil rights movement. Even if I had, you'd still be wrong. Is that the barometer now? We base our judgements on how much the people in question have suffered. If a gay kid gets dragged behind a truck, THEN is it OK to make a big deal? If thousands die....is THAT the time to take a stand? I'd like to think we've made some progress and those things aren't necessary to do the right thing. I'm sorry you're offended, but I don't think you have any right to be.

Personal Choice? Right there....you just destroyed your entire argument. THAT is the crux of the issue. ITS NOT A CHOICE. You are gay or you are not. Gay people don't DECIDE to be gay. Many of them would NOT be gay if given the choice simply because the world is a much more fogiving place if you are not.

Your reaction is simply more evidense as to WHY this needs to be a bigger issue to begin with. Your comments show what SO MANY people think....and you are wrong. That's not the way it works.

I gotta be honest. This conversation is dissappointing. Especially in 2013.

Really dude, you're smarter than this.

Then "black QB" discussion, much like the black astronaut discussion, the black president discussion, and every other "first" accomplished by a black only exists BECAUSE of civil rights. It's the same reason why we don't compare serial murders to the holocaust.

Yes, both are terrible but when looked at in terms of scale differences emerge.

"Gay people don't choose to be gay."

Says you? I personally know plenty of women that were "gay" in high school/college, then decided to not be "gay anymore." Hell, a few of them are even married with kids.

So, whole I don't claim to be the authority on this matter, it seems to me that choosing to lay with someone of the same sex is just as much of conscious decision as choosing not to is. What did in miss where it was PROVEN that homosexuality is a DNA trait?

Man, this conversation got pretty ridiculous quickly didn't it?
Originally posted by baltien:

Onto your other points, you're basically helping to prove my point. Getting beat up because you're homosexual is a pretty mild concern when compared to the threat of being murdered because of your color.

Sorry, gotta jump in here. Do you actually think the worst thing to ever happen to somebody because they were gay is get beat up?
Originally posted by baltien:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
WOW.

Missing the point entirely. Look at my post #137 on this page. Pretty much answers everything you just said.

When I read stuff likw this it really disappoints me.

I all gay people simply wanted attention, they'd all be out. They aren't looking for more attention. All they want to to be trated like everyone else. The only way to have a society that will accept them as being like everyone else is to make it public, let everyone have their opinion on the topic, and move on.

I'm sorry but the line about being straight all your life just serves to further impune yourself. OF COURSE nobody gave a damn. Nobody beats you up because your straight. Nobody tells you you can't do something because your straight. Nobody picks on you becausem your straight. You don't fear people finding out that your straight because it might cost you your dream of playing in the NFL You can be free to be who you are at all times.

Gay people cannot.

In a perfect world, you would be correct. Nobody would care that one person is gay and another is not. In a perfect world there would be no NEED for all of the attention. Guess what tho.....this ain't Utopia. The is the real world. This is how stuff happens. If you don't understand this then you need to pick a few more history books.

I didn't bother to read ten pages of this thread (nor will I) but fair enough. I still firmly believe that a few isolated examples doesn't warrant all of the attention some people think being gay should, but by all means free to disagree.

Onto your other points, you're basically helping to prove my point. Getting beat up because you're homosexual is a pretty mild concern when compared to the threat of being murdered because of your color. And when applied to the context of pro sports, it's a tad overblown to say the least. Forgive me, but I have a very hard time envisioning the whole locker room suddenly converging upon some poor soul because he came out.

Granted, I can't say with absolute certainty that such a thing won't ever happen, but on the scale if probability I'd rank it right around the likelihood of me seeing Bigfoot jet-skiing at the beach.

"Gay people cannot."

....do what exactly? If memory serves, it has been quite illegal for some time now to discriminate against someone on the basis of their sexuality. And IIRC, physically harming someone for that reason is also hate crime.

So please, do provide some examples of all these things gay people can't do and how folks are openly getting away with it.

Seriously. I'd be interested to hear.

oi.

All you are arguing is a matter of degree.

The issue isn't the law (other than gay marriage, but thats a separate issue and we weren't talking about that). Your argument seems to be "they haven't suffered the way we suffered so all this hype is unwarranted". Thats quite a load of BS right there.

The amount of hype around the way homosexuals have been treated and their rights under the law is NOTHING compared to the outcry for racial equality thoughout the checkered history of this country....and rightfully so. An entire war was faught over slavery. Racial bigotry exists to this very day and you can look at the way the president is teated as an example. Would there really be any question about his birth certificate if he were white? No. Proof? McCain was born in PANAMA. Almost never mentioned in the election.

I'm not trying to argue that one equals the other. It is possible tho to use one to illustrate a point about the way socierty tends to deal with issues that make them uncomfortable.

The larger point is that the way a society deals with things is to blow them up and make them exteremely visable so that they can no longer be ignored. People who don't want to look at them are forced to. People who wouold be afraid to voice their opinions gain courage and say what they want to say. In this case many people who would be afraid to come out find the courage to do so. In doing so, people who have issues with gay people find out that they know alot more of them than they think they do. They gain understanding.

All of this leads to being gay not being something someone feels ashamed of or ashamed to share. It becomes "normal". It becomes something the media doesn't have to blow out of proportion because it isn't a story anymore.

THAT was the point I was making in regards to the Black QB. It was a story when Doug Williams was the first Black QB in the Super Bowl. It wasn't a story anymore when Kaep was in the Super Bowl. Thats progress.

I'm sorry you are offended by that, but I stand by the comparison. Gay people don't need to be persecuted at the same level for the analogy to hold.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Apr 14, 2013 at 2:37 PM ]
Originally posted by baltien:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Uh yes.

You are just digging the hole deeper.

I likened it to Black QBs in the NFL, not the entire civil rights movement. Even if I had, you'd still be wrong. Is that the barometer now? We base our judgements on how much the people in question have suffered. If a gay kid gets dragged behind a truck, THEN is it OK to make a big deal? If thousands die....is THAT the time to take a stand? I'd like to think we've made some progress and those things aren't necessary to do the right thing. I'm sorry you're offended, but I don't think you have any right to be.

Personal Choice? Right there....you just destroyed your entire argument. THAT is the crux of the issue. ITS NOT A CHOICE. You are gay or you are not. Gay people don't DECIDE to be gay. Many of them would NOT be gay if given the choice simply because the world is a much more fogiving place if you are not.

Your reaction is simply more evidense as to WHY this needs to be a bigger issue to begin with. Your comments show what SO MANY people think....and you are wrong. That's not the way it works.

I gotta be honest. This conversation is dissappointing. Especially in 2013.

Really dude, you're smarter than this.

Then "black QB" discussion, much like the black astronaut discussion, the black president discussion, and every other "first" accomplished by a black only exists BECAUSE of civil rights. It's the same reason why we don't compare serial murders to the holocaust.

Yes, both are terrible but when looked at in terms of scale differences emerge.

"Gay people don't choose to be gay."

Says you? I personally know plenty of women that were "gay" in high school/college, then decided to not be "gay anymore." Hell, a few of them are even married with kids.

So, whole I don't claim to be the authority on this matter, it seems to me that choosing to lay with someone of the same sex is just as much of conscious decision as choosing not to is. What did in miss where it was PROVEN that homosexuality is a DNA trait?

Man, this conversation got pretty ridiculous quickly didn't it?


Really? I mean....seriously?

You are gonna come at me with "you're smarter than this" and then post all that crap at the end?

NEWSFLASH: There are gay people who are married to people of the opposite gender. They can CHOOSE to lay with whomever they want....but that doesn't change who they are or the fact that they are gay. Many are afraid of the stigma and choose to live in fear. Some are confused as to what they are. Some struggle with it their entire lives.

Do you have any idea how many gay kids KILL THEMSELVES because they are gay and are ashamed of themselves? Do you really think they would CHOOSE that? Do you really think people would subject themselves to all of the stereotypes and bigotry just to make a CHOICE? To quote yourself, come on dude...you're smarter than that.

The bottom line tho is that they have an attraction they can't control. They don't get to decide which gender they prefer. They can fight it all they want...it doesn't change it.

Open your eyes man. This crap you are saying is the PROBLEM, not the solution. When people really can just accept it then it won't be an issue. You say your straight and as you said you don't need to announce it to the world. Thats true, but then again you never had to feel like you had to hide it either. You never had society make you feel as if it was something you had to be ashamed of. If you did, you'd have a completely different view.

I know a bit about this. For the sake of full disclosure, I don't happen top be gay...but I am in an interracial relationship. My wife is hispanic. We've been together for 20 years and it's given be a small understanding of the way society works. We used to get looks when we first got together, We didn't care.

Ya know what tho....we don't get them anymore. Ya know why? People got over it.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Apr 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM ]
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Uh yes.

You are just digging the hole deeper.

I likened it to Black QBs in the NFL, not the entire civil rights movement. Even if I had, you'd still be wrong. Is that the barometer now? We base our judgements on how much the people in question have suffered. If a gay kid gets dragged behind a truck, THEN is it OK to make a big deal? If thousands die....is THAT the time to take a stand? I'd like to think we've made some progress and those things aren't necessary to do the right thing. I'm sorry you're offended, but I don't think you have any right to be.

Personal Choice? Right there....you just destroyed your entire argument. THAT is the crux of the issue. ITS NOT A CHOICE. You are gay or you are not. Gay people don't DECIDE to be gay. Many of them would NOT be gay if given the choice simply because the world is a much more fogiving place if you are not.

Your reaction is simply more evidense as to WHY this needs to be a bigger issue to begin with. Your comments show what SO MANY people think....and you are wrong. That's not the way it works.

I gotta be honest. This conversation is dissappointing. Especially in 2013.


There's a pretty big difference between being black and being gay though. You can be homosexual, have homosexual relationships and just not be public about it. The facts are there has already been hundreds of gay athletes in the NFL..

Can't do that as a black man.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Apr 14, 2013 at 2:40 PM ]
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Uh yes.

You are just digging the hole deeper.

I likened it to Black QBs in the NFL, not the entire civil rights movement. Even if I had, you'd still be wrong. Is that the barometer now? We base our judgements on how much the people in question have suffered. If a gay kid gets dragged behind a truck, THEN is it OK to make a big deal? If thousands die....is THAT the time to take a stand? I'd like to think we've made some progress and those things aren't necessary to do the right thing. I'm sorry you're offended, but I don't think you have any right to be.

Personal Choice? Right there....you just destroyed your entire argument. THAT is the crux of the issue. ITS NOT A CHOICE. You are gay or you are not. Gay people don't DECIDE to be gay. Many of them would NOT be gay if given the choice simply because the world is a much more fogiving place if you are not.

Your reaction is simply more evidense as to WHY this needs to be a bigger issue to begin with. Your comments show what SO MANY people think....and you are wrong. That's not the way it works.

I gotta be honest. This conversation is dissappointing. Especially in 2013.


There's a pretty big difference between being black and being gay though. You can be homosexual, have homosexual relationships and just not be public about it. The facts are there has already been hundreds of gay athletes in the NFL..

Can't do that as a black man.


Point?

Since you can hide being gay and can't hide being black means that you should HAVE to hide being gay? Why should gay people have to feel they have to be private about who they date? Do straight people feel like they have to hide it?
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Apr 14, 2013 at 2:43 PM ]
OK peeps. I didn't expect to spend my afternoon having this conversation. LOL. I'm out for now.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
oi.

All you are arguing is a matter of degree.

The issue isn't the law (other than gay marriage, but thats a separate issue and we weren't talking about that). Your argument seems to be "they haven't suffered the way we suffered so all this hype is unwarranted". Thats quite a load of BS right there.

The amount of hype around the way homosexuals have been treated and their rights under the law is NOTHING compared to the outcry for racial equality thoughout the checkered history of this country....and rightfully so. An entire war was faught over slavery. Racial bigotry exists to this very day and you can look at the way the president is teated as an example. Would there really be any question about his birth certificate if he were white? No. Proof? McCain was born in PANAMA. Almost never mentioned in the election.

I'm not trying to argue that one equals the other. It is possible tho to use one to illustrate a point about the way socierty tends to deal with issues that make them uncomfortable.

The larger point is that the way a society deals with things is to blow them up and make them exteremely visable so that they can no longer be ignored. People who don't want to look at them are forced to. People who wouold be afraid to voice their opinions gain courage and say what they want to say. In this case many people who would be afraid to come out find the courage to do so. In doing so, people who have issues with gay people find out that they know alot more of them than they think they do. They gain understanding.

All of this leads to being gay not being something someone feels ashamed of or ashamed to share. It becomes "normal". It becomes something the media doesn't have to blow out of proportion because it isn't a story anymore.

THAT was the point I was making in regards to the Black QB. It was a story when Doug Williams was the first Black QB in the Super Bowl. It wasn't a story anymore when Kaep was in the Super Bowl. Thats progress.

I'm sorry you are offended by that, but I stand by the comparison. Gay people don't need to be persecuted at the same level for the analogy to hold.

So…if the issue isn't the law that makes discriminating against someone on the basis of their sexuality illegal, or the one that makes physically harming them a hate crime….then what manner of "acceptance" do gays feel like they're missing? I really want to know.

I look at it like, so long as your rights aren't being infringed upon, nothing else should matter. That is exactly why, IMO, this whole thing is overblown. No one is getting away with telling folks they can't eat, play, work, or otherwise do anything because they're gay. Now if that were that the case, then sure, lets have a rally.

Until then, relax.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Point?

Since you can hide being gay and can't hide being black means that you should HAVE to hide being gay? Why should gay people have to feel they have to be private about who they date? Do straight people feel like they have to hide it?

Nobody says they have to hide it, and I doubt there's much backlash inside the locker room. For every Chris Culliver you're going to find his supporters as well. The actual problem is just as much the press clamoring to make this guy into the next Jackie Robinson. There's millions of dollars at stake here. Nobody wants that circus. If you're black there's no avoiding it, but if you're gay you can.

Would you want every single press conference to be bombarded with questions about some dude's relationship and how the team is handling it? I know if I was a gay player I'd be trying to avoid that distraction for my team's sake.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Apr 14, 2013 at 3:01 PM ]
Originally posted by baltien:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
oi.

All you are arguing is a matter of degree.

The issue isn't the law (other than gay marriage, but thats a separate issue and we weren't talking about that). Your argument seems to be "they haven't suffered the way we suffered so all this hype is unwarranted". Thats quite a load of BS right there.

The amount of hype around the way homosexuals have been treated and their rights under the law is NOTHING compared to the outcry for racial equality thoughout the checkered history of this country....and rightfully so. An entire war was faught over slavery. Racial bigotry exists to this very day and you can look at the way the president is teated as an example. Would there really be any question about his birth certificate if he were white? No. Proof? McCain was born in PANAMA. Almost never mentioned in the election.

I'm not trying to argue that one equals the other. It is possible tho to use one to illustrate a point about the way socierty tends to deal with issues that make them uncomfortable.

The larger point is that the way a society deals with things is to blow them up and make them exteremely visable so that they can no longer be ignored. People who don't want to look at them are forced to. People who wouold be afraid to voice their opinions gain courage and say what they want to say. In this case many people who would be afraid to come out find the courage to do so. In doing so, people who have issues with gay people find out that they know alot more of them than they think they do. They gain understanding.

All of this leads to being gay not being something someone feels ashamed of or ashamed to share. It becomes "normal". It becomes something the media doesn't have to blow out of proportion because it isn't a story anymore.

THAT was the point I was making in regards to the Black QB. It was a story when Doug Williams was the first Black QB in the Super Bowl. It wasn't a story anymore when Kaep was in the Super Bowl. Thats progress.

I'm sorry you are offended by that, but I stand by the comparison. Gay people don't need to be persecuted at the same level for the analogy to hold.

So…if the issue isn't the law that makes discriminating against someone on the basis of their sexuality illegal, or the one that makes physically harming them a hate crime….then what manner of "acceptance" do gays feel like they're missing? I really want to know.

I look at it like, so long as your rights aren't being infringed upon, nothing else should matter. That is exactly why, IMO, this whole thing is overblown. No one is getting away with telling folks they can't eat, play, work, or otherwise do anything because they're gay. Now if that were that the case, then sure, lets have a rally.

Until then, relax.


SMDH.

I'm done....and I'm dissappointed.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Point?

Since you can hide being gay and can't hide being black means that you should HAVE to hide being gay? Why should gay people have to feel they have to be private about who they date? Do straight people feel like they have to hide it?

Nobody says they have to hide it, and I doubt there's much backlash inside the locker room. For every Chris Culliver you're going to find his supporters as well. The actual problem is just as much the press clamoring to make this guy into the next Jackie Robinson. There's millions of dollars at stake here. Nobody wants that circus. If you're black there's no avoiding it, but if you're gay you can.

Would you want every single press conference to be bombarded with questions about some dude's relationship and how the team is handling it? I know if I was a gay player I'd be trying to avoid that distraction for my team's sake.

oi.

I'm not answering this question because I've already answered it 4 or 5 times in my previous posts.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
oi.

I'm not answering this question because I've already answered it 4 or 5 times in my previous posts.

Here's the problem. To a gay athlete it's a non story right now. They play football, they date men, and the only difference is they have to it on the down low. Doug Williams is breaking the barrier so he and other African American football players can play the position. He's not doing for the media or cultural acceptance.

I do think a player comes out eventually but it probably doesn't happen into society starts breaking down the barriers giving them reason to want come out of the closet. If gay marriage was allowed that's certainly something that would entice a player to come out.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Apr 14, 2013 at 4:20 PM ]
The reality of the situation is that many NFL players are not ready for an openly gay teammate. Many players feel the same way as Chris Culliver. Chris Culliver was harsh with his comments, but he depicted how many NFL players really feel. Players are simply not comfortable with the possibility that someone in their locker room could be sexually attracted to them and view them dressing. It doesn't matter that they don't make any kind of sexual advances. One reason why men and women use different bathrooms/locker rooms is because of this privacy issue.
Originally posted by baltien:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
oi.

All you are arguing is a matter of degree.

The issue isn't the law (other than gay marriage, but thats a separate issue and we weren't talking about that). Your argument seems to be "they haven't suffered the way we suffered so all this hype is unwarranted". Thats quite a load of BS right there.

The amount of hype around the way homosexuals have been treated and their rights under the law is NOTHING compared to the outcry for racial equality thoughout the checkered history of this country....and rightfully so. An entire war was faught over slavery. Racial bigotry exists to this very day and you can look at the way the president is teated as an example. Would there really be any question about his birth certificate if he were white? No. Proof? McCain was born in PANAMA. Almost never mentioned in the election.

I'm not trying to argue that one equals the other. It is possible tho to use one to illustrate a point about the way socierty tends to deal with issues that make them uncomfortable.

The larger point is that the way a society deals with things is to blow them up and make them exteremely visable so that they can no longer be ignored. People who don't want to look at them are forced to. People who wouold be afraid to voice their opinions gain courage and say what they want to say. In this case many people who would be afraid to come out find the courage to do so. In doing so, people who have issues with gay people find out that they know alot more of them than they think they do. They gain understanding.

All of this leads to being gay not being something someone feels ashamed of or ashamed to share. It becomes "normal". It becomes something the media doesn't have to blow out of proportion because it isn't a story anymore.

THAT was the point I was making in regards to the Black QB. It was a story when Doug Williams was the first Black QB in the Super Bowl. It wasn't a story anymore when Kaep was in the Super Bowl. Thats progress.

I'm sorry you are offended by that, but I stand by the comparison. Gay people don't need to be persecuted at the same level for the analogy to hold.

So…if the issue isn't the law that makes discriminating against someone on the basis of their sexuality illegal, or the one that makes physically harming them a hate crime….then what manner of "acceptance" do gays feel like they're missing? I really want to know.

I look at it like, so long as your rights aren't being infringed upon, nothing else should matter. That is exactly why, IMO, this whole thing is overblown. No one is getting away with telling folks they can't eat, play, work, or otherwise do anything because they're gay. Now if that were that the case, then sure, lets have a rally.

Until then, relax.

Great points.
why not? it's 2013

who cares anymore?