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Russell Wilson VS Colin Kaepernick

Originally posted by GNielsen:
Excuse me, but Hawker84, you said you would eat crow when you saw Kaepernick juke someone. Black Razor is right. On the very first play in this video, Kaepernick makes a tackler fall down grasping at air. I suggest you slow cook your crow with a generous helping of curry sauce. And the Razor is also correct about where these jukes happen. Wilson is a spectacular scrambler, but I don't see him running past entire defensive backfields like their standing still as Kaepernick does. Wilson is juking people as he's running around in circles in the backfield waiting for someone to come open in the school yard.

ya , so what's your point..? a jukes a juke , doesn't matter where it takes place.. for the record he makes plenty of jukes down field as well...
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Frank is a Power Runner. He is ALSO an elusive runner.

He's a BALANCED back with tremendous vision and can do everything. The only thing he doesn't have is elite speed...and thats likely do to 2 torn ACLs in college.

Marvin.. i actually respect your posts quite a bit.. i read your stuff here and on other sites as well... but i'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.. my idea of a power back is someone like Earl Cambell, Christian Okoye, Brandon Jacobs, someone who'll straight power over you or through you, i looked at several different highlights of gore yesterday and never saw any of this, not even on the goal line.. elusiveness , heck ya all day, powering through people, never saw it.. he may be powerful, as in strong.. but he does not have a power running style, IMO...
Originally posted by modninerfan:
Wilson got that quickness. I dont think he has the same top end speed, but man that dude escapes pressure like nobodies business.

Totally agree. I remember how much of a pain in the butt he was in the last game at Seattle. Dude is quick but Kaep is fast! Big difference. Which is why Kaep had just as many rushing yards as Wilson did over 7 games!
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
I thought the read option was the perfect example of juking/faking out defenders. You point them in one direction then you take it another and leave the defender gasping for air. And when you try to diminish the rushing prowess of one QB that was the only in NCAA history to pass > 10000 yds and rush > 4000 yds then set an NFL rushing record for QBs at 181 yards in a PLAYOFF GAME, well then I think we are fishing for something here don't you think. Russ is more of a QB in a RB body that can perform most of the duties of both positions so I can see where he could be more elusive but that is not to say he is better at toting the pill when both game film and the statistics say otherwise. As for the injury issue, I can say that I hope both guys stay healthy and that Russ's MJD - like stature may indeed help him, but I think Colin will be alright being that he is coached by the QB guru Harbaugh and has an outstanding cast around him and he instinctively slides and gets out of bounds well enough already. BTW, during the game at the Superdome vs Saints, I thought Colin faked out 3 to 4 defenders rather nicely on a rushing TD from the redzone
didn't see the saints game, got any links to it so i can see him juking out 3 - 4 defenders.. and please read my posts before you comment... for the 10th time.. just because i said he can't juke or elude defenders as well as RW doesn't mean i don't think the man can run... anybody with speed can gain yrds rushing if you have open space in front of you... my point is , he's not making a lot of people miss to pick up all those yrds you mentioned.. if i'm wrong, post a vid , show me.. i posted my vid proving my point, do the same....
Originally posted by hawker84:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Frank is a Power Runner. He is ALSO an elusive runner.

He's a BALANCED back with tremendous vision and can do everything. The only thing he doesn't have is elite speed...and thats likely do to 2 torn ACLs in college.

Marvin.. i actually respect your posts quite a bit.. i read your stuff here and on other sites as well... but i'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.. my idea of a power back is someone like Earl Cambell, Christian Okoye, Brandon Jacobs, someone who'll straight power over you or through you, i looked at several different highlights of gore yesterday and never saw any of this, not even on the goal line.. elusiveness , heck ya all day, powering through people, never saw it.. he may be powerful, as in strong.. but he does not have a power running style, IMO...

Our definitions are just different.

I don't see any of those backs you are talking about anymore. Jacobs isn't even really that guy...he dances too much.

When I think of a power back, I don't think of a bull. I think of a guy who can make yards after contact. A guy who can break arm tackles. Who are guys who can do that these days? Steven Jackson. Marshawn Lynch. Adrian Peterson.

What's important to note about those guys tho is that they are by no means ONLY power runners. That is just one aspect of their game.

Frank was a power runner in that respct, particularly early on. What has given him longevity in the league and why I think he'll continue to be good here is that his #1 asset is his vision. The guy just see's things that nobody else sees. He's not as fast as he used to be nor does he break as many tackles, but he can still see the field better than anyone.

To be honest...thats gonna be my question with Marshawn. The guy is a monster right now, but I wonder if he's gonna be a guy who disappears overnight. That running style is very difficult to maintain for a long period of time.


Now...as for the Kaep/Wilson debate...

Look....obviously peeps here are gonna like Kaep and peeps in Seattle are gonna like Wilson.

BOTH are the envy of half the league right now.

This whole "elusive" thing about Kaep not making anyone miss and how he'll take more hits etc than Wilson misses the point entirely.

Does Wilson have more LATERAL quickness than Kaep? Yes. He's freakin' 5'10" so I would hope so. He's the closest thing I've ever seen to Kartenton...keeping plays alive and putting tremendous pressure on the DBs to stay with their men.

Kaep has more straight line speed. Don't quote a 40 time to me...I believe what I see on the field. He's MUCH taller and heavier than Wilson so no, he doesn't have the quickness that Wilson does....but he doesn't really need it. I'm perfectly happy seeing him sprint in a straight line 20 yards and getting out of bounds then trying to put a move on someone in the open field. He had over 170 of his 180+ yards against the Packers without getting hit.

...and that's kinda the point. He doesn't get hit. It doesn't happen. When he runs, he'll slide. He'll get out of bounds. He'll get everything he can and not risk the injury. He's smart about it.

He also doesn't get hit in the pocket too much either. Why? Not only does he get away from the rush, but the pass rush actually has to change in an attempt to "contain" him. They don't rush the same way because they fear opening up running lanes. This gives him TIME in the pocket to throw longer passes and to avoid getting hit.

Wilson is similar in this regard as teams try to corral him.

Personally, I'll take the guy whos 6' 5", has a CANNON, was the most accurate passer on balls over 20 yards last year in the NFL and can run like the wind over the guy whos 5' 10" and can scramble. Don't get me wrong, I like Wilson as much as I can like any QB in Seattle....but I'd take Kaep hands down.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Mar 26, 2013 at 8:37 AM ]
everything you said i agree with... thank you for actually taking the time to read what i posted before commenting...

given a choice , i'd love for RW to be 6'3" and still have the quicks and elusiveness.. but he's pretty darn good at 5'11"..

I think Kap's a monster, and a damn good runner, was taking nothing away from him, just saying Kap and RW have different styles, where Kap is more straight line and RW is more Keystone Cops if you will... both very effective... but if you were to have to choose which running style would be more apt to take a hit, it would be the straight line runner...( not saying Kap does )...

as far as power runners, we'll have to respectfully disagree.. Gore is not the same style runner as AP, Lynch, Morris, Jackson.. i could be wrong , but i don't see any highlights of him boucing off big hits on a consistant basis , like the others mentioned, running through arm tackles, yes.. but mostly i see him making people miss more than anything.. i think this just comes down to ones perception of power running as you stated.
Originally posted by hawker84:
everything you said i agree with... thank you for actually taking the time to read what i posted before commenting...

given a choice , i'd love for RW to be 6'3" and still have the quicks and elusiveness.. but he's pretty darn good at 5'11"..

I think Kap's a monster, and a damn good runner, was taking nothing away from him, just saying Kap and RW have different styles, where Kap is more straight line and RW is more Keystone Cops if you will... both very effective... but if you were to have to choose which running style would be more apt to take a hit, it would be the straight line runner...( not saying Kap does )...

as far as power runners, we'll have to respectfully disagree.. Gore is not the same style runner as AP, Lynch, Morris, Jackson.. i could be wrong , but i don't see any highlights of him boucing off big hits on a consistant basis , like the others mentioned, running through arm tackles, yes.. but mostly i see him making people miss more than anything.. i think this just comes down to ones perception of power running as you stated.

Well...just to be clear...I don't think he's a runner in the AP/Lynch mold. He's not as big for sure.

He's not as physical as Lynch (few are...and I really think thats gonna catch up with him).......and the only 2 runners I'd EVER say were in the AP mold were Jim Brown and Bo Jackson (He's that freakin' good). What I am saying tho is that Gore, particularly early on, was a very physical runner. He has gotten away from that more and more as he's gotten older and it's his vision that has allowed him to be successful.

He was never fast. He was never lightning quick (tho he was elusive)...at least not since those ACL surgeries. He's always been able to make good decisions, see the field, and break tackles. When he had that game against Seattle where he had 2 runs over 80 yards, those were perfect examples of vision. He didn't make any huge moves, he didn't run over anyone....He just saw a hole where nobody else saw one, made one cut and he was gone. Twice.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Mar 26, 2013 at 9:33 AM ]
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Well...just to be clear...I don't think he's a runner in the AP/Lynch mold. He's not as big for sure.

He's not as physical as Lynch (few are...and I really think thats gonna catch up with him).......and the only 2 runners I'd EVER say were in the AP mold were Jim Brown and Bo Jackson (He's that freakin' good). What I am saying tho is that Gore, particularly early on, was a very physical runner. He has gotten away from that more and more as he's gotten older and it's his vision that has allowed him to be successful.

He was never fast. He was never lightning quick (tho he was elusive)...at least not since those ACL surgeries. He's always been able to make good decisions, see the field, and break tackles. When he had that game against Seattle where he had 2 runs over 80 yards, those were perfect examples of vision. He didn't make any huge moves, he didn't run over anyone....He just saw a hole where nobody else saw one, made one cut and he was gone. Twice.

ok, i'll buy he was a more physical runner earlier in his career.. i was gaging my perception on the last couple seasons where i actually watched your guys games... so that could be true.. as far as AP.. he could go down as one of the best if not the best in history barring another injury..
Yeah! AP! The Vikings fans are pumped!

Originally posted by hawker84:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Well...just to be clear...I don't think he's a runner in the AP/Lynch mold. He's not as big for sure.

He's not as physical as Lynch (few are...and I really think thats gonna catch up with him).......and the only 2 runners I'd EVER say were in the AP mold were Jim Brown and Bo Jackson (He's that freakin' good). What I am saying tho is that Gore, particularly early on, was a very physical runner. He has gotten away from that more and more as he's gotten older and it's his vision that has allowed him to be successful.

He was never fast. He was never lightning quick (tho he was elusive)...at least not since those ACL surgeries. He's always been able to make good decisions, see the field, and break tackles. When he had that game against Seattle where he had 2 runs over 80 yards, those were perfect examples of vision. He didn't make any huge moves, he didn't run over anyone....He just saw a hole where nobody else saw one, made one cut and he was gone. Twice.

ok, i'll buy he was a more physical runner earlier in his career.. i was gaging my perception on the last couple seasons where i actually watched your guys games... so that could be true.. as far as AP.. he could go down as one of the best if not the best in history barring another injury..

I'll go to my grave thinking Jim Brown, Bo Jackson, and Adrian Peterson are genetic clones of each other. ;-) Eric Dickerson not far off either, but those other 3 are in a different class.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
I'll go to my grave thinking Jim Brown, Bo Jackson, and Adrian Peterson are genetic clones of each other. ;-) Eric Dickerson not far off either, but those other 3 are in a different class.

I can't compare Jim Brown to either Jackson or Peterson. Brown played in a different era. At 6-3 and about 230, he was literally bigger than most linebackers were at the time. He would run over guys. His game was as a dominating power runner and one of his rules of thumb was to make it literally hurt to tackle him. His speed was not there by today's standards. Most long-time analysts believe he ran about a 4.6 sec. 40. But, once he got a head of steam he was fast by the standards of the day. If you watch film of him, he does a lot of just physical pounding and actually throwing guys around as he runs. In his day, he was absolutely the best athlete on the field all the time. The game has changed. There's a lot more speed and size these days. Bo Jackson is one of the fastest running backs ever to step on a field. I think he still holds the record for the combine 40 at under 4.2 seconds. I see Peterson as somewhere between the two.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
I'll go to my grave thinking Jim Brown, Bo Jackson, and Adrian Peterson are genetic clones of each other. ;-) Eric Dickerson not far off either, but those other 3 are in a different class.

I can't compare Jim Brown to either Jackson or Peterson. Brown played in a different era. At 6-3 and about 230, he was literally bigger than most linebackers were at the time. He would run over guys. His game was as a dominating power runner and one of his rules of thumb was to make it literally hurt to tackle him. His speed was not there by today's standards. Most long-time analysts believe he ran about a 4.6 sec. 40. But, once he got a head of steam he was fast by the standards of the day. If you watch film of him, he does a lot of just physical pounding and actually throwing guys around as he runs. In his day, he was absolutely the best athlete on the field all the time. The game has changed. There's a lot more speed and size these days. Bo Jackson is one of the fastest running backs ever to step on a field. I think he still holds the record for the combine 40 at under 4.2 seconds. I see Peterson as somewhere between the two.

Actually Chris Johnson owns the fastest 40. Bo wasn't in the 4.2's.

Jim Brown dominated the game in his era. He'd be an even better player today with the benefit of all of the training these players do now. Yes, the competition would be different, but so would he.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Actually Chris Johnson owns the fastest 40. Bo wasn't in the 4.2's.

Jim Brown dominated the game in his era. He'd be an even better player today with the benefit of all of the training these players do now. Yes, the competition would be different, but so would he.
You'll get no argument from me if you think Jim Brown is one of the greatest NFL players of all time, but I'm not sure he'd be even a better player today. The linebackers and defensive line talent in Brown's day was a lot different. The Niners have two inside linebackers starting who would have been the fastest men in the NFL at any position in Brown's day. And, they're both bigger than Brown even though Brown was huge by the standards of his day. In fact, Brown, to me, is a case in point for why it's almost impossible to compare players of different eras. In Brown's day, the fastest guy in the NFL entered the league late in his career - "Bullit" Bob Hayes was the fastest man in the NFL. The Niners have a tight end and a few linebackers who are faster than Bob Hayes. In Brown's day, a dominating defensive lineman like Leo Nomellini was 6'1", 250 lbs. and probably ran a 40 in 6 seconds.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Actually Chris Johnson owns the fastest 40. Bo wasn't in the 4.2's.

Jim Brown dominated the game in his era. He'd be an even better player today with the benefit of all of the training these players do now. Yes, the competition would be different, but so would he.

Bo Jackson 40 time was quoted at 4.12

wiki
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Actually Chris Johnson owns the fastest 40. Bo wasn't in the 4.2's.

Jim Brown dominated the game in his era. He'd be an even better player today with the benefit of all of the training these players do now. Yes, the competition would be different, but so would he.

Bo Jackson 40 time was quoted at 4.12

wiki

The key to that time is the part where it says "hand-timed". There was a nobody WR this year who had a hand-timed 4.19.

I don't buy it. Bo was fast enough...we don't need to go nuts.