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The Owners Math Doesn't Make Sense

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http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=6232635

Quote:
Even as owners were pushing for a lower cap, they were re-signing starters at higher numbers. Richard Seymour of the Raiders got $15 million a year. Champ Bailey of the Broncos got $10.75 million. A.J. Hawk of the Packers got $6.75 million.

Something has bothered me about the stalled NFL labor talks for months.

The problem became crystal clear when full details of the NFL owners' last offer were revealed last Friday. Before the NFL Players Association decertified last Friday afternoon, owners increased their offer from $131 million in player costs in 2011 to $141 million, with hopes of getting a negotiating extension.

Although that was a move in the right direction and was a solid counter to the trade association's $151 million position, the number doesn't work. Because benefits count for $27 million of the $141 million offer, the salary cap number came to $114 million.

In that case, the salary cap would be a salary choke.

A pre-2008 salary cap simply doesn't work with 2011 salaries.

Low-revenue teams have complained about the $7 million yearly growth of the cap since 2006, which is one of the reasons low-revenue owners joined others in opting out of the collective bargaining agreement in 2008. The cap went from $109 million in 2007 to $116 million in 2008 to $123 million in 2009. The 2009 number was so high that NFL teams as a whole were $163 million below it -- roughly $5 million of cap room per team.

Owners can try to roll back the cap, but rolling back the increasing price of signing starters is impossible. It's especially impossible this year, as there are 450 unsigned free agents. At the same time owners were pushing for a lower cap, they were trying to re-sign starters at the higher numbers. Richard Seymour of the Raiders got $15 million a year. Champ Bailey of the Broncos got $10.75 million. A.J. Hawk of the Packers received $6.75 million.

What used to be $5 million deals are going for $10 million. To make it work in 2011 dollars, teams can't take the cap too far backward.

Just to keep franchise players, a dozen teams tendered players at more than $10 million salaries for 2011. In 2007, when the cap was $109 million, there were only 10 $10 million-plus players league-wide. There were 16 in 2008.

That number has already doubled heading into the 2011 season. I know the average value of the contract doesn't reflect the yearly cap number because the first-year cap numbers are usually the lowest, but you simply can't squeeze too many $10 million-a-year contracts into lower caps.

The cap reality of these talks does offer hope of a settlement soon. No owner wants to get into a long-term bargaining agreement that is troubled from the start. Redskins owner Dan Snyder wrote $36 million worth of checks to Albert Haynesworth and DeAngelo Hall last season to "free up'' cap room for the future. He didn't take $36 million out of potential profit to agree to a salary cap that would prohibit him from signing top free agents.

Salary caps need space to breathe. Starting the cap too low would force established veteran teams to release players and only be able to sign replacements for close to the minimum salary. It would force teams to guarantee high-priced contracts, turning base salaries into pro-rated signing bonuses to lower the cap numbers. Teams haven't had to do that for years because the cap has been so high that teams have had plenty of room to operate.

One of the reasons I was optimistic about a deal between the owners and the association has been the focus on the cap number itself. In "All The President's Men," the theme was "follow the money.'' Follow the cap and follow the payrolls of teams in these talks and you'll learn a lot.

Owners didn't have a cap last year, but payrolls still rose about 6 percent to around $125.5 million per team. The plan was to save money by not having a minimum requirement for team payrolls. Plenty of teams saved, but the price of starters keeps rising because of the competitive nature of this sport.

Starting quarterbacks now go for $14 million-plus. Top defensive ends go for $10 million to $14 million. Top guards are $8 million a year and tackles go for $10 million or more. The franchise numbers alone tell you where salaries are headed.

The numbers haven't been totally crunched for 2010, but starters in general are making more than $3.4 million a year. Because of injuries, teams have to plan for not just a 53-man roster but have to figure to have 65 players or more on their cap by the end of the season as attrition alters their rosters.

I look at winning teams, such as the Indianapolis Colts, New York Giants, New York Jets and others that have 10 to 12 starters making $5 million a year or more, and realize they can't start deals with a salary cap too low.

Under those realities, the owners' last offer of a $114 million salary cap can only be viewed as a counter offer, not a final offer. For further proof, go back to the league's comments for the past week that owners agreed to the players' request for a $161 million player cost number in 2014. With the $27 million of benefits included in that concept, the 2014 cap would be around $134 million, only $4 million more than what was supposed to be the cap number in 2010.

The 2011 cap can't be too much lower than $120 million for teams to be able to function competitively. Teams that budget their money well would be required to spend only 90 percent of that cap.

That's why I think both sides will reach out to each other before the April 6 hearing date on the Tom Brady case to try to work out the final numbers. Players are asking for a cap in the $124 range. That's not unfair, but if the owners come to the middle and go for $119 million, it might promote a deal.

What won't work is going back to $114 million, but that is easy enough for everyone to see.


[ Edited by AB83Rules on Mar 20, 2011 at 10:19:40 ]
nice find, thanks AB.
Originally posted by HessianDud:
nice find, thanks AB.

no prob.

At first I was with the owners, but this is BS. They want a less cap, yet signed players to big deals before lockout. Makes no sense.

Im with the players on this one, and Goodell should keep his ass out of it.
Quote:
Redskins owner Dan Snyder wrote $36 million worth of checks to Albert Haynesworth and DeAngelo Hall last season to "free up'' cap room for the future. He didn't take $36 million out of potential profit to agree to a salary cap that would prohibit him from signing top free agents.

how is this f**king retard an owner of a professional football team.
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
nice find, thanks AB.

no prob.

At first I was with the owners, but this is BS. They want a less cap, yet signed players to big deals before lockout. Makes no sense.

Im with the players on this one, and Goodell should keep his ass out of it.

Not that I'm siding with the owners but I'd argue that the reason they have a cap is to keep the owners from signing baseball, KG esque contracts (before the NBA got maximum contracts).

This isn't anything new. It doesn't matter how bad player contracts get or bad of shape the league is in unless the owners take actions with caps and ceilings player costs will rise. Just look at the draft. No one wants to pay that kind of money to an unproven guy yet still that number one slot increases dramatically each year.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
nice find, thanks AB.

no prob.

At first I was with the owners, but this is BS. They want a less cap, yet signed players to big deals before lockout. Makes no sense.

Im with the players on this one, and Goodell should keep his ass out of it.

Not that I'm siding with the owners but I'd argue that the reason they have a cap is to keep the owners from signing baseball, KG esque contracts (before the NBA got maximum contracts).

This isn't anything new. It doesn't matter how bad player contracts get or bad of shape the league is in unless the owners take actions with caps and ceilings player costs will rise. Just look at the draft. No one wants to pay that kind of money to an unproven guy yet still that number one slot increases dramatically each year.

to me this makes no sense, the Broncos, Packers, Raiders, and others signed players to big deal prior to the lockout, and yet want a lower cap, and the 2011 salaries wont match the cap, which means player cuts and salary cuts.
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
nice find, thanks AB.

no prob.

At first I was with the owners, but this is BS. They want a less cap, yet signed players to big deals before lockout. Makes no sense.

Im with the players on this one, and Goodell should keep his ass out of it.

Not that I'm siding with the owners but I'd argue that the reason they have a cap is to keep the owners from signing baseball, KG esque contracts (before the NBA got maximum contracts).

This isn't anything new. It doesn't matter how bad player contracts get or bad of shape the league is in unless the owners take actions with caps and ceilings player costs will rise. Just look at the draft. No one wants to pay that kind of money to an unproven guy yet still that number one slot increases dramatically each year.

to me this makes no sense, the Broncos, Packers, Raiders, and others signed players to big deal prior to the lockout, and yet want a lower cap, and the 2011 salaries wont match the cap, which means player cuts and salary cuts.

You have to understand that these guys want to win. It makes financial sense to them to put up a good product. If you want to win you have to pay the market price for a player, and every time a player gets signed that price tag goes up. If player salaries went down there would be collusion because it goes against the nature of the business of sports.

You see this all of the time. NBA owners are b*tching about their financial situation yet Darko is getting a 20 million dollar contract. Owners really do have to protect themselves from themselves.
Doesn't make any sense. Just like the owners complain about the rookies salaries increasing every year, yet they are the one's who are increasing the rookies salary. The owners and agents dictate that not the union or the players.
Originally posted by lamontb:
Doesn't make any sense. Just like the owners complain about the rookies salaries increasing every year, yet they are the one's who are increasing the rookies salary. The owners and agents dictate that not the union or the players.

True enough....




... BUT...


Suppose the Owners decided to "hold the line" on rookie salaries and, for the sake of argument, pay them exactly what the same pick got from the previous year (with allowances for QB's, who make more money). As an easy example, the first player taken is a Quarterback in two consecutive years, and the second player an Offesive Tackle. The teams drafting them the second year offer them the the exact same compensation package as the previous year's teams did. Same $$$, # of years, incentives, etc.

Can you say "collusion"?

Imagine how bad it would be if they offered LESS?
tjd: "Just look at the draft. No one wants to pay that kind of money to an unproven guy yet still that number one slot increases dramatically each year."

As I understand it, part of the players proposal is a rookie salary cap system that limits these huge payouts to un-proven players. The players feel huge contracts for un-proven players hurt veterans' chances at better contracts. So, I think the players are actually on your side in this.

  • fryet
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 3,166
I don't believe the player's proposal included a rookie salary cap - that has been coming from the owners. A large percentage of the players in the league have 4 years or less of experience, so a rookie cap affects a large amount of those in the player's union. I think the union does have some sympathy to a rookie cap, but I believe that it is the owner's pushing it.
Originally posted by socal9er42:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Doesn't make any sense. Just like the owners complain about the rookies salaries increasing every year, yet they are the one's who are increasing the rookies salary. The owners and agents dictate that not the union or the players.

True enough....




... BUT...


Suppose the Owners decided to "hold the line" on rookie salaries and, for the sake of argument, pay them exactly what the same pick got from the previous year (with allowances for QB's, who make more money). As an easy example, the first player taken is a Quarterback in two consecutive years, and the second player an Offesive Tackle. The teams drafting them the second year offer them the the exact same compensation package as the previous year's teams did. Same $$$, # of years, incentives, etc.

Can you say "collusion"?

Imagine how bad it would be if they offered LESS?

Good points. They would have many agents pissed off but at the end of the day if they really wanted to impose power and will on the system they could. Simply put you tell the agent that we are not paying the 1st pick 60 million guaranteed take it or leave it. Either you take it or you don't play. Just like Crabtree was trying to break the system so can the owners.

But at the end of the day that would just lead to more infighting b/c guys like Al Davis, Dan Synder, and Jerry Jones would probably say oh well and break the bank for their players. Plus they do set aside rookie pool more allocated to each team. Then you will have the NFLPA saying where is that extra money going that you guys are keeping. Leading to more beef.
Originally posted by fryet:
I don't believe the player's proposal included a rookie salary cap - that has been coming from the owners. A large percentage of the players in the league have 4 years or less of experience, so a rookie cap affects a large amount of those in the player's union. I think the union does have some sympathy to a rookie cap, but I believe that it is the owner's pushing it.

According to reports the two sides have agreed on a rookie salary scale.

"According to two sources familiar with the negotiations, the league and the union have reached a basic compromise on a rookie wage scale that will replace the current rookie salary cap." From Jason Cole, Yahoo Sports

This is a huge shift from the Upshaw days when players understood that rookie salaries pushed vets salaries higher. With the cap, perhaps this is no longer a sticking point.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by fryet:
I don't believe the player's proposal included a rookie salary cap - that has been coming from the owners. A large percentage of the players in the league have 4 years or less of experience, so a rookie cap affects a large amount of those in the player's union. I think the union does have some sympathy to a rookie cap, but I believe that it is the owner's pushing it.

According to reports the two sides have agreed on a rookie salary scale.

"According to two sources familiar with the negotiations, the league and the union have reached a basic compromise on a rookie wage scale that will replace the current rookie salary cap." From Jason Cole, Yahoo Sports

This is a huge shift from the Upshaw days when players understood that rookie salaries pushed vets salaries higher. With the cap, perhaps this is no longer a sticking point.

Upshaw was a push over and work more for the owners then the players IIRC
Originally posted by solidg2000:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by fryet:
I don't believe the player's proposal included a rookie salary cap - that has been coming from the owners. A large percentage of the players in the league have 4 years or less of experience, so a rookie cap affects a large amount of those in the player's union. I think the union does have some sympathy to a rookie cap, but I believe that it is the owner's pushing it.

According to reports the two sides have agreed on a rookie salary scale.

"According to two sources familiar with the negotiations, the league and the union have reached a basic compromise on a rookie wage scale that will replace the current rookie salary cap." From Jason Cole, Yahoo Sports

This is a huge shift from the Upshaw days when players understood that rookie salaries pushed vets salaries higher. With the cap, perhaps this is no longer a sticking point.

Upshaw was a push over and work more for the owners then the players IIRC

Rookie salaries pushed vets salaries every year. Sign a rookie for more money than any vet is making and every proficient vet automatically jumps the next contract. Upshaw recognized that and would not endorse the owners idea for a rookie salary cap without including some mechanism to raise vet income. That is not being in the pocket of owners. The players did quite well during Upshaw's time as union boss, so I don't know where you get the idea he was a push over. Any facts about this would be appreciated.
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