Willis vs Revis

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by KRS-1:
Posted a poll on a football forum/non 49er site....

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2265829

Thus far ....

Revis - 30 votes (69.77%)
Willis - 13 votes (30.23%)

I'm not surprised, I think on any other site except a 49ers site, you'd get that same result.

-9fA

I am not either...but I am anxious to see the reaction by some WZ'ers to some of the comments made by the posters on DC.

You mean like this one

Quote:
I'd take Revis but I'd take Jared Allen or DeMarcus Ware over either one. Frankly I'd take Albert Haynesworth, Kevin Williams and a whole host of defensive lineman over either one, but between those two I take Revis.

Ridiculous.

Like this :

Quote:
See, the choice would be a lot closer if Willis was a more complete player. You can absolutely argue that the more disciplined and better playcalling Jon Beason is right on par overall with Willis, just not in the facets of the game that Willis excels at.

Let's not pretend that Willis does everything perfectly. He doesn't.

and

Quote:
Willis is overrated, Tackles aren't even a official stat

Let's just say WZ'ers are not going to digest people talking about Willis like that. If that comment was made on this site, you'd be handing out warnings until your blue in the face.

I'm going back to the parking lot. My mini-venture back into football posts is over methinks.

Originally posted by Janitor:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by KRS-1:
Posted a poll on a football forum/non 49er site....

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2265829

Thus far ....

Revis - 30 votes (69.77%)
Willis - 13 votes (30.23%)

I'm not surprised, I think on any other site except a 49ers site, you'd get that same result.

-9fA

I am not either...but I am anxious to see the reaction by some WZ'ers to some of the comments made by the posters on DC.

You mean like this one

Quote:
I'd take Revis but I'd take Jared Allen or DeMarcus Ware over either one. Frankly I'd take Albert Haynesworth, Kevin Williams and a whole host of defensive lineman over either one, but between those two I take Revis.

Ridiculous.

Like this :

Quote:
See, the choice would be a lot closer if Willis was a more complete player. You can absolutely argue that the more disciplined and better playcalling Jon Beason is right on par overall with Willis, just not in the facets of the game that Willis excels at.

Let's not pretend that Willis does everything perfectly. He doesn't.

and

Quote:
Willis is overrated, Tackles aren't even a official stat

Let's just say WZ'ers are not going to digest people talking about Willis like that. If that comment was made on this site, you'd be handing out warnings until your blue in the face.

I'm going back to the parking lot. My mini-venture back into football posts is over methinks.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Janitor:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by KRS-1:
Posted a poll on a football forum/non 49er site....

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2265829

Thus far ....

Revis - 30 votes (69.77%)
Willis - 13 votes (30.23%)

I'm not surprised, I think on any other site except a 49ers site, you'd get that same result.

-9fA

I am not either...but I am anxious to see the reaction by some WZ'ers to some of the comments made by the posters on DC.

You mean like this one

Quote:
I'd take Revis but I'd take Jared Allen or DeMarcus Ware over either one. Frankly I'd take Albert Haynesworth, Kevin Williams and a whole host of defensive lineman over either one, but between those two I take Revis.

Ridiculous.

Like this :

Quote:
See, the choice would be a lot closer if Willis was a more complete player. You can absolutely argue that the more disciplined and better playcalling Jon Beason is right on par overall with Willis, just not in the facets of the game that Willis excels at.

Let's not pretend that Willis does everything perfectly. He doesn't.

and

Quote:
Willis is overrated, Tackles aren't even a official stat

Let's just say WZ'ers are not going to digest people talking about Willis like that. If that comment was made on this site, you'd be handing out warnings until your blue in the face.

I'm going back to the parking lot. My mini-venture back into football posts is over methinks.

wow. that s**t makes Niner Talk sound reasonable.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I would rather have Willis. The importance of a DB is not more then ILB. If that were the case, Deion Sanders would have led the Falcons to the super Bowl. He didn't even lead them to the playoffs there.

Ray Lewis lead his team to the Super Bowl and got the super bowl MVP. Corners get all the hype, but ILBs do all the dirty work. Give me P.Willy thrice on Sunday.

Only 2 LB'ers in the history of the NFL have won SB MVP's. DB's have won the award 3 times. The award generally goes to a QB,RB or WR.

And Lewis did not single handedly win that game for the Ravens.

Only 7 Defensive players have won the Super Bowl. Yes three DBs have won the Super Bowl MVP. The great Larry Brown of the Cowboys against the Steelers with his two gift wrapped interceptions from Neil O'Sullivan...i mean O'Donnel. Larry Brown was the heart and soul of that D.

And then the other DB to win the super bowl MVP was actually a free safety, not a Cornerback. His name was Dexter "Action" Jackson of the Tampa Bay Buccanears. He was also the heart and sole of that defense. Sapp, Brooks, Barber, and Lynch all bowed down to this DB icon (Sarcasm). He lead the Bucs to the SB, including him helping defeat our beloved Niners rather badly.

The first DB to win it was the best of them all, and he was a FS. He was Jake Scott, of that undefeated Dolphins team. He was a bad ass returner and had two ints in super bowl VII. He made it to the HOF.

So the only Cornerback to win was Larry Brown.

As for LBs, the first to win it was Chuck Howley of the Cowgirls. Not a hall of famer, but had 2 ints and a fumble recovery in super bowl V.

Next was Randy White. For you old schoolers, when the Cowboys were kicking our butts in the late 70s, he was a monster. A HOF who played LB/DE. Granted, he was playing DE when he was the Co-MVP of Super Bowl XII.

And finally there is Ray Lewis. I never proclaimed that he "single handedly" lead them to the super bowl win. I said that he LEAD them to the win, all season long. I watched that game along with most super bowls.

So, only one CB has ever won it and that was Larry Brown. Two other LBs have won it. He was an ILB and sure fire HOFer, who lead the team to a Super Bowl win with Trent Dilfer at the helm. (Remember Dilfer)

I stand by my assessment. The greatest corners we've seen in our time...Deion Sanders, never lead s**t. I'd take Willis all day.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I would rather have Willis. The importance of a DB is not more then ILB. If that were the case, Deion Sanders would have led the Falcons to the super Bowl. He didn't even lead them to the playoffs there.

Ray Lewis lead his team to the Super Bowl and got the super bowl MVP. Corners get all the hype, but ILBs do all the dirty work. Give me P.Willy thrice on Sunday.

Only 2 LB'ers in the history of the NFL have won SB MVP's. DB's have won the award 3 times. The award generally goes to a QB,RB or WR.

And Lewis did not single handedly win that game for the Ravens.

Only 7 Defensive players have won the Super Bowl. Yes three DBs have won the Super Bowl MVP. The great Larry Brown of the Cowboys against the Steelers with his two gift wrapped interceptions from Neil O'Sullivan...i mean O'Donnel. Larry Brown was the heart and soul of that D.

And then the other DB to win the super bowl MVP was actually a free safety, not a Cornerback. His name was Dexter "Action" Jackson of the Tampa Bay Buccanears. He was also the heart and sole of that defense. Sapp, Brooks, Barber, and Lynch all bowed down to this DB icon (Sarcasm). He lead the Bucs to the SB, including him helping defeat our beloved Niners rather badly.

The first DB to win it was the best of them all, and he was a FS. He was Jake Scott, of that undefeated Dolphins team. He was a bad ass returner and had two ints in super bowl VII. He made it to the HOF.

So the only Cornerback to win was Larry Brown.

As for LBs, the first to win it was Chuck Howley of the Cowgirls. Not a hall of famer, but had 2 ints and a fumble recovery in super bowl V.

Next was Randy White. For you old schoolers, when the Cowboys were kicking our butts in the late 70s, he was a monster. A HOF who played LB/DE. Granted, he was playing DE when he was the Co-MVP of Super Bowl XII.

And finally there is Ray Lewis. I never proclaimed that he "single handedly" lead them to the super bowl win. I said that he LEAD them to the win, all season long. I watched that game along with most super bowls.

So, only one CB has ever won it and that was Larry Brown. Two other LBs have won it. He was an ILB and sure fire HOFer, who lead the team to a Super Bowl win with Trent Dilfer at the helm. (Remember Dilfer)

I stand by my assessment. The greatest corners we've seen in our time...Deion Sanders, never lead s**t. I'd take Willis all day.

How can you say that a guy who won a Super Bowl with 2 different teams never lead sh*t.

Deion was the best player on both of those defenses. You can say he didn't lead them but that's beside the point. You don't have to be the team leader to have the biggest impact on the field. Deion without a doubt put us over the top and was a large part of the Cowboy Super Bowl. Baltimore won their Super Bowl after the salary cap. Watered down teams, you can win a Bowl with one very good unit. That wasn't the case back in the early 90's. Us, Dallas, the Packers all had elite offenses and elite defenses. The great teams were alot better back then.

You can build an elite defense from any position. New England built their defense around a 3-4 line. Tampa built their defense around Sapp. Pittsburgh was originally built around the linebacking core but Polamulu has become their heart and soul at defense. Green Bay and Buffalo had Bruce Smith and Reggie White. The Saints don't have an elite defense, but it was their turnover creating secondary that got them over the top this year.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Aug 21, 2010 at 23:59:16 ]

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I would rather have Willis. The importance of a DB is not more then ILB. If that were the case, Deion Sanders would have led the Falcons to the super Bowl. He didn't even lead them to the playoffs there.

Ray Lewis lead his team to the Super Bowl and got the super bowl MVP. Corners get all the hype, but ILBs do all the dirty work. Give me P.Willy thrice on Sunday.

And finally there is Ray Lewis. I never proclaimed that he "single handedly" lead them to the super bowl win. I said that he LEAD them to the win, all season long. I watched that game along with most super bowls.

So, only one CB has ever won it and that was Larry Brown. Two other LBs have won it. He was an ILB and sure fire HOFer, who lead the team to a Super Bowl win with Trent Dilfer at the helm. (Remember Dilfer)

I stand by my assessment. The greatest corners we've seen in our time...Deion Sanders, never lead s**t. I'd take Willis all day.

Actually Jamal Lewis led the offense, but yes Dilfer was the QB (and if you remember Dilfer wasn't the opening day starter for the Ravens).

Point is, you are claiming Sanders never led his team to s**t, but in Atlanta's case his defense was nowhere near as talented as the Ravens D was in 2000. You can't fault Sanders for the difference in talent levels on both rosters.

Sanders helped lead the 49ers to a Super Bowl win, and was even the DPOY that very season. Coincidentally Lewis won the same award the year the Ravens won the SB. However if ILB is as important or more important, then why has Ray not led his Ravens to another SB ? The talent level on D has still been there, they still have had years where the run game was great ?

And that 2000 Ravens team....had a very very talented defensive backfield. Those DB's had 3 of the Ravens 4 picks in the SB itself as well.

At the end of the day a shutdown corner is far more important to a team than an all pro ILB and that is a known NFL fact.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I would rather have Willis. The importance of a DB is not more then ILB. If that were the case, Deion Sanders would have led the Falcons to the super Bowl. He didn't even lead them to the playoffs there.

Ray Lewis lead his team to the Super Bowl and got the super bowl MVP. Corners get all the hype, but ILBs do all the dirty work. Give me P.Willy thrice on Sunday.

Only 2 LB'ers in the history of the NFL have won SB MVP's. DB's have won the award 3 times. The award generally goes to a QB,RB or WR.

And Lewis did not single handedly win that game for the Ravens.

3-2 isn't exactly significant. And a shutdown corner is fantastic, but it's not the foundation of a good defense. No single player has ever lead a team to a Super Bowl, so claiming Ray Lewis isn't as important because they haven't gone back is pretty silly.

2010 Saints
ILB: J. Vilma
CB: J. Greer, T. Porter

2009 Steelers
ILB: J. Farrior
CB: I. Taylor, B. McFadden

2008 Giants
ILB: A. Pierce
CB: S. Madison, A. Ross

2007 Colts
ILB: G. Brackett
CB: N. Harper, J. David

Not seeing a ton of shutdown corners there, but that's a solid list of linebackers. A shutdown corner is great, but it's useless without a solid defensive foundation.

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I would rather have Willis. The importance of a DB is not more then ILB. If that were the case, Deion Sanders would have led the Falcons to the super Bowl. He didn't even lead them to the playoffs there.

Ray Lewis lead his team to the Super Bowl and got the super bowl MVP. Corners get all the hype, but ILBs do all the dirty work. Give me P.Willy thrice on Sunday.

Only 2 LB'ers in the history of the NFL have won SB MVP's. DB's have won the award 3 times. The award generally goes to a QB,RB or WR.

And Lewis did not single handedly win that game for the Ravens.

3-2 isn't exactly significant. And a shutdown corner is fantastic, but it's not the foundation of a good defense. No single player has ever lead a team to a Super Bowl, so claiming Ray Lewis isn't as important because they haven't gone back is pretty silly.

2010 Saints
ILB: J. Vilma
CB: J. Greer, T. Porter

2009 Steelers
ILB: J. Farrior
CB: I. Taylor, B. McFadden

2008 Giants
ILB: A. Pierce
CB: S. Madison, A. Ross

2007 Colts
ILB: G. Brackett
CB: N. Harper, J. David

Not seeing a ton of shutdown corners there, but that's a solid list of linebackers. A shutdown corner is great, but it's useless without a solid defensive foundation.

I am seeing one really good MLB there, Jonathan Vilma. Farrior & Pierce were no longer in their prime when those teams won. As for Brackett, I am not convinced of how good he truly is, he may be a product of Dungy's defense and the scheme.

The 2009 Saints defense were led by the offense. The defense was not great but it was led by the defensive backfield which was a turnover machine. They had 20 picks last year + 7 FF's. (Coincidentally the 2000 Ravens secondary had close to the same number of picks)

The 2009 Steelers D was led by a DB and it's pass rush....Troy Polamalu, Lamaar Woodley and James Harrison.

The 2008 Giants were led by their DL.

The 2007 Colts were led by the Peyton Manning and the offense. The defense was good but not great, and the scheme was more important than any 1 player or position group.

As for true shutdown corners not being on those teams....there are very few true shutdown corners that exist in pro football. Champ Bailey was one and now we have Revis, Aso and possibly Woodson. But those guys are a rare breed unlike ILB's.

[ Edited by KRS-1 on Aug 22, 2010 at 09:14:22 ]

My point is they're a luxury. Champ Bailey never lead a team to a Super Bowl. It's a rarity, and they're very impressive, but rare doesn't necessarily mean more important. Heck, I'd take an elite safety over a shutdown corner.

Originally posted by pantstickle:
My point is they're a luxury. Champ Bailey never lead a team to a Super Bowl. It's a rarity, and they're very impressive, but rare doesn't necessarily mean more important. Heck, I'd take an elite safety over a shutdown corner.

Problem is the true shutdown corners that we have seen in the NFL as of late have rarely been a part of good to great teams. Bailey has never had the defensive talent around him to help both the Skins and Broncos get to the SB.

Aso...plays for Oakland. Enough said.

Revis, if he shows up this year is in a good position. That team has the talent to win.

Actually Chris McCallister looked like one early in his career, and his team did win a Superbowl.

[ Edited by KRS-1 on Aug 22, 2010 at 09:35:33 ]

Two words, buddy. Poo face.

Originally posted by pantstickle:
Two words, buddy. Poo face.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by pantstickle:
Two words, buddy. Poo face.

No, this is abuse of power.

Originally posted by pantstickle:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by pantstickle:
Two words, buddy. Poo face.

No, this is abuse of power.

I call that sexism. You only did it because she had bigger boons than Valrod!

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:
Please name 1 DB that has led its team or franchise to a Super Bowl ?

None.case closed.

What MLB led his team to a SB ? Ray Lewis ? Let's not overlook that the 2000 Ravens had a very strong running game and a load of talent on defense. Lewis might have been the heart and soul but he did not single handedly lead that team to winning the Super Bowl.

For starters, these guys led their teams to multiple Super Bowls as leaders of their teams..

Lawrence Taylor
Jack Lambert
Ray Nitschke
Mike Singletary
Roy Winston
Ted Hendricks


Then of course u well know these LB's that got their teams in the playoffs or a Super Bowl being a LB...

Dick Butkus
Junior Seau
Derrick Thomas
Brian Urlacher
Willy Lanier

Child please!

OK Since you are talking about leaders who led their teams to SB or to the playoffs, I'll list off some corner's who have done the same

Asante Samuel with the Pats
Lito Sheppard and Sheldon Brown with the Eagles
Ronde Barber with the Bucs
Rod Woodson with the Steelers
Mel Blount with the Steelers
Deion Sanders with the 49ers
Ronnie Lott with the 49ers
Lester Hayes with the Raiders
Dick Lane with the Lions
Champ Bailey with the Broncos

Not one guy you listed and we can include Ray Lewis is single handedly responsible for getting his team to the playoffs or winning them a Super Bowl. Some mentioned like Ray Lewis and Mike Singletary played on 2 of the greatest defensive teams ever.

Now kiss da baby!

Let me guess, you played back up DB in high school football right?

Here's the thing, great football players don't look to great DB's to lead them to greatness. It's just not in a DB's DNA. At a young age linebackers are taught to call signals, break huddles and be team(bully's)leaders.From pop-warner to the pros, defense is built around your toughest/athletic players.

The lists we compared is an EPIC landslide. Notice i didn't even mention Ray-Ray on mine ? The guys you listed were great super bowl winners, but obviously not the centerpiece of any title or dynasty.

The guys I listed,IMO, were either the greatest of an era; hall of fame members; or team leaders that defenses were built around.

Like a broken record, I'd rather have a P. Willis than a D. Revis.

[ Edited by nicedraw94080 on Aug 22, 2010 at 11:40:02 ]