Marcellus Wiley says NFL culture still has "no tolerance" for homosexuality

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by kray28:
Hearst got in trouble just a short decade ago for basically saying the same thing in a slightly less diplomatic fashion....he was roasted by the NFL, the media, and the team and forced to apologize.

But the truth is that while the NFL is happy to pay political lip service to the gay community, it has unwritten rules about what basically amounts to a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy when it comes to homosexuals in the locker room.

A certain component of a player's success is political...the coach and your peers have to like you enough to want to play with you. Being gay basically limits that possibility totally and completely. So if you re in fact gay, you better not let them know.

Someone has to break the barrier, man. It was the same for black players at one time too. Someone will eventually!

when did a persons sexual preference become something that needed to be expressed to others? i hate when people compare homosexuality to racial struggle.

if youre a teacher, a politician, an NFL player, etc, your sexual preference is nobodies business. everyone grills the military for "dont ask dont tell", when thats how it SHOULD be. if you like men, thats nobodies business but your own. if you choose to make it this open topic, you do it full well knowing some people wont agree with it.

being a certain race isnt something that you hold onto privately. jackie robinson being black wasnt something personal. the lifestyle you choose to live IS personal.

im just tired of homosexuals demanding things and shoving their sexual preference in everyones face. keep it to yourself, nobody cares.

sexual preference isn't a choice. that aside, you are right: your sexual preference isn't anybodies business, but why should someone have to hide it? Besides, its about more than just sex. If you work with a gay guy who has a partner, is he not allowed to invite him to the Christmas party because that would be "shoving it" in everybodies face?

Look at it like this, I wouldn't be allowed into the girls locker room because they don't want me looking at their tits and hatchet wounds. We can be friends and hang out but they don't want be looking at their naked body with "dirty" thoughts. Same applies for a gay guy in a men's locker room....that's what I'm assuming from the responses and I do some what agree....I dont want some guy looking at my pecker.

Originally posted by HessianDud:


separate isn't equal, right? i don't see how that doesn't apply, how it could be justified anywhere, to have separate locker rooms for gay people. I know that you know the law better than I do, but I don't see how it could be legal to make that designation.

it would be rude for you to enter a woman's locker room because you don't belong there. i'm sorry, i thought i answered that question. maybe i answered it with a question--my bad. its still a completely different situation, and you haven't answered my question about WHY you would be in a woman's locker room, how that could arise from a situation that would make it similar to the gay NFL player discussion.

Seperate but equal only applies to certain classifications. Homosexuality recieves a lower level of protection then race.
Also Women and Mens bathroom are legally "seperate but equal" which is allowable because there is a strong enough reason for it (seperate but equal isn't automatically unconstitutional).

And my reason I said was the women's locker room was cleaner. And the only reason I brought that up is to point out there is a LEGITIMATE PRIVACY to exclude people who MAY be sexually attracted to you as you dress/shower. Which is the whole point of having seperate locker rooms.

And I don't see any interference if a NFL gay player was given some sort of additional privacy to dress/shower in. He would still be able to join the team in the Locker room, I don't think naked dudes walk around 2 seconds before the game while the coach is giving a speech.

Anyways, my original point is straight men i the locker room have legitimate right to privacy and I would consider it rude if a gay person entered my locker room while I changed instead of getting his own (at hockey rinks there are multiple locker rooms, always an extra one open if someone wanted privacy).

Originally posted by DynastyChile:

and we are not talking about uncomfortableness, we're talking about how it would just kinda suck going to work every day with a guy who is openly gay, and having to walk around with him in a shower. How do you not understand that?

I understand exactly what you're saying. You're saying you're not homophobic, but you'd prefer it if gay people didn't have jobs because it makes you uncomfortable to be around them. Your problem is there responsibility. I totally get it.

Originally posted by crzy:
If there can be an active, openly gay or bisexual rugby player who is accepted, then there will eventually be an active, openly gay accepted NFL player or an NBA player.

good point.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:


I doubt it. We've only talked about how it would divide a team if they did that. But if they were openly gay can you imagine the harrassment they'd get on the road by opposing fans and opposing players? It's just in their best interest not to flaunt their gayness preference. It's not even like all the other team's fans and players hate gay people, but you know they would harrass that guy just because they'd try to get in his head and want to win. In football you have people injuring eachother intentionally and holding and insulting eachother or doing roids or whatever, just so they can get an edge. You think they wouldn't use the their opponent's homosexuality as a way to get an advantage? Of course they would. They'd be close to ruining their life IMO. And it wouldn't be like how eventually the racism towards black athletes ended, because there wound up being so many of them. No matter what a bunch of gay guys arent ever going to enter the NFL, they'll always be a part of a very small minority.

This is very benevolent of you. Of course, none of this has anything to do with you being wildly uncomfortable around gay people, you're just looking out for their best interests, and would prefer a world in which you are the one who gets to make decisions for everyone else. I find that to be totally reasonable.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by kray28:
Hearst got in trouble just a short decade ago for basically saying the same thing in a slightly less diplomatic fashion....he was roasted by the NFL, the media, and the team and forced to apologize.

But the truth is that while the NFL is happy to pay political lip service to the gay community, it has unwritten rules about what basically amounts to a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy when it comes to homosexuals in the locker room.

A certain component of a player's success is political...the coach and your peers have to like you enough to want to play with you. Being gay basically limits that possibility totally and completely. So if you re in fact gay, you better not let them know.

Someone has to break the barrier, man. It was the same for black players at one time too. Someone will eventually!

when did a persons sexual preference become something that needed to be expressed to others? i hate when people compare homosexuality to racial struggle.

if youre a teacher, a politician, an NFL player, etc, your sexual preference is nobodies business. everyone grills the military for "dont ask dont tell", when thats how it SHOULD be. if you like men, thats nobodies business but your own. if you choose to make it this open topic, you do it full well knowing some people wont agree with it.

being a certain race isnt something that you hold onto privately. jackie robinson being black wasnt something personal. the lifestyle you choose to live IS personal.

im just tired of homosexuals demanding things and shoving their sexual preference in everyones face. keep it to yourself, nobody cares.

sexual preference isn't a choice. that aside, you are right: your sexual preference isn't anybodies business, but why should someone have to hide it? Besides, its about more than just sex. If you work with a gay guy who has a partner, is he not allowed to invite him to the Christmas party because that would be "shoving it" in everybodies face?

Look at it like this, I wouldn't be allowed into the girls locker room because they don't want me looking at their tits and hatchet wounds. We can be friends and hang out but they don't want be looking at their naked body with "dirty" thoughts. Same applies for a gay guy in a men's locker room....that's what I'm assuming from the responses and I do some what agree....I dont want some guy looking at my pecker.

understood. i totally agree. but the thing is, in an NFL locker room, there's gonna be guys looking at your pecker no matter what, and you can't control what they're thinking about it. And while a straight teammate might say, "Hey, jreff22, how do you f**k your wife with that tiny dick?" it will be construed as part of the "locker room talk." But I would bet that a gay guy will make zero comments about his teammates peckers, unless it was understood as being part of the camaraderie.

Look, I'm not denying or trying to refute the fact that the NFL has no tolerance for homosexuality, and that "naked locker room" is a component of that. I just think that its not the root of why it is that NFL players--pro athletes in general--"can't accept it." And, I think that some of the "fears" of sharing a locker room with a gay guy just aren't founded in reality. This fear assumes that gay guys either can't control their sexuality or are incapable of being the same kind of teammate as a straight guy, and I just have a hard time believing that.

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Seperate but equal only applies to certain classifications. Homosexuality recieves a lower level of protection then race.
Also Women and Mens bathroom are legally "seperate but equal" which is allowable because there is a strong enough reason for it (seperate but equal isn't automatically unconstitutional).

And my reason I said was the women's locker room was cleaner. And the only reason I brought that up is to point out there is a LEGITIMATE PRIVACY to exclude people who MAY be sexually attracted to you as you dress/shower. Which is the whole point of having seperate locker rooms.

And I don't see any interference if a NFL gay player was given some sort of additional privacy to dress/shower in. He would still be able to join the team in the Locker room, I don't think naked dudes walk around 2 seconds before the game while the coach is giving a speech.

Anyways, my original point is straight men i the locker room have legitimate right to privacy and I would consider it rude if a gay person entered my locker room while I changed instead of getting his own (at hockey rinks there are multiple locker rooms, always an extra one open if someone wanted privacy).

Re: the locker room issue.

You do realize that there's no shortage of lesbians and out-of-closet lesbians on professional women's sports teams, right? What are the huge problems posed by this? Where is the evidence that this is an issue?

I don't understand why we insist on making excuses for homophobic idiots. Every single "I don't hate gay people, BUT" statement in this thread is making excuses for the people who have the problem. It's insisting that the rest of the world maneuver around in deference to their idiocy. Why can't the people with the problem be the ones who are responsible for dealing with their problem? Just giving them a pass and blaming others for their problem is shortsighted.

^^^Hessian, how many locker rooms you've been in with guys making penis jokes while you stand around naked?

In all my years of being in hockey locker rooms, I've heard one penis joke and it was from the opposing team about my pecker! (We had a shared bathroom). Needless to say they lost 22-0.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by kray28:
Hearst got in trouble just a short decade ago for basically saying the same thing in a slightly less diplomatic fashion....he was roasted by the NFL, the media, and the team and forced to apologize.

But the truth is that while the NFL is happy to pay political lip service to the gay community, it has unwritten rules about what basically amounts to a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy when it comes to homosexuals in the locker room.

A certain component of a player's success is political...the coach and your peers have to like you enough to want to play with you. Being gay basically limits that possibility totally and completely. So if you re in fact gay, you better not let them know.

Someone has to break the barrier, man. It was the same for black players at one time too. Someone will eventually!

when did a persons sexual preference become something that needed to be expressed to others? i hate when people compare homosexuality to racial struggle.

if youre a teacher, a politician, an NFL player, etc, your sexual preference is nobodies business. everyone grills the military for "dont ask dont tell", when thats how it SHOULD be. if you like men, thats nobodies business but your own. if you choose to make it this open topic, you do it full well knowing some people wont agree with it.

being a certain race isnt something that you hold onto privately. jackie robinson being black wasnt something personal. the lifestyle you choose to live IS personal.

im just tired of homosexuals demanding things and shoving their sexual preference in everyones face. keep it to yourself, nobody cares.

sexual preference isn't a choice. that aside, you are right: your sexual preference isn't anybodies business, but why should someone have to hide it? Besides, its about more than just sex. If you work with a gay guy who has a partner, is he not allowed to invite him to the Christmas party because that would be "shoving it" in everybodies face?

Look at it like this, I wouldn't be allowed into the girls locker room because they don't want me looking at their tits and hatchet wounds. We can be friends and hang out but they don't want be looking at their naked body with "dirty" thoughts. Same applies for a gay guy in a men's locker room....that's what I'm assuming from the responses and I do some what agree....I dont want some guy looking at my pecker.

understood. i totally agree. but the thing is, in an NFL locker room, there's gonna be guys looking at your pecker no matter what, and you can't control what they're thinking about it. And while a straight teammate might say, "Hey, jreff22, how do you f**k your wife with that tiny dick?" it will be construed as part of the "locker room talk." But I would bet that a gay guy will make zero comments about his teammates peckers, unless it was understood as being part of the camaraderie.

Look, I'm not denying or trying to refute the fact that the NFL has no tolerance for homosexuality, and that "naked locker room" is a component of that. I just think that its not the root of why it is that NFL players--pro athletes in general--"can't accept it." And, I think that some of the "fears" of sharing a locker room with a gay guy just aren't founded in reality. This fear assumes that gay guys either can't control their sexuality or are incapable of being the same kind of teammate as a straight guy, and I just have a hard time believing that.

I don't think its THAT big of a issue. Ive known a good amount of gay guys and they joke but who gives a s**t I joke also. Best example a buddy of mine is a firefighter and they have 1 open gay guy at the fire house. They all joke and its cool he makes jokes, they make them back but they are all boys and would die for each other. Now if he grabbed someones dick it would be a different story but they are all adults and know which lines cannot be crossed.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by kray28:
Hearst got in trouble just a short decade ago for basically saying the same thing in a slightly less diplomatic fashion....he was roasted by the NFL, the media, and the team and forced to apologize.

But the truth is that while the NFL is happy to pay political lip service to the gay community, it has unwritten rules about what basically amounts to a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy when it comes to homosexuals in the locker room.

A certain component of a player's success is political...the coach and your peers have to like you enough to want to play with you. Being gay basically limits that possibility totally and completely. So if you re in fact gay, you better not let them know.

Someone has to break the barrier, man. It was the same for black players at one time too. Someone will eventually!

when did a persons sexual preference become something that needed to be expressed to others? i hate when people compare homosexuality to racial struggle.

if youre a teacher, a politician, an NFL player, etc, your sexual preference is nobodies business. everyone grills the military for "dont ask dont tell", when thats how it SHOULD be. if you like men, thats nobodies business but your own. if you choose to make it this open topic, you do it full well knowing some people wont agree with it.

being a certain race isnt something that you hold onto privately. jackie robinson being black wasnt something personal. the lifestyle you choose to live IS personal.

im just tired of homosexuals demanding things and shoving their sexual preference in everyones face. keep it to yourself, nobody cares.

sexual preference isn't a choice. that aside, you are right: your sexual preference isn't anybodies business, but why should someone have to hide it? Besides, its about more than just sex. If you work with a gay guy who has a partner, is he not allowed to invite him to the Christmas party because that would be "shoving it" in everybodies face?

Because if you're saying something about it you're making it everyone else's business. Like if I'm going out with some girl, and I tell all my fam about it, I'm making that their business and then they have the opportunity to like he or dislike her or talk s**t about me behind my back or whatever. Then it becomes their business. If someone says they're gay, then all of a sudden they ARE making it everyone elses business, because they're announcing it to the world.

This is ridiculous to be honest, because I feel like when someone talks about gay people and I don't care, that's not good enough, but if I say my opinion like about this, then all of a sudden you people act like we hate them. I'm sick of hearing about them. Whatever they want to do is fine but I don't want it to be MY BUSINESS. And they are making it everyone else's business if they say so in the lockerroom.

Originally posted by jreff22:

I don't think its THAT big of a issue. Ive known a good amount of gay guys and they joke but who gives a s**t I joke also. Best example a buddy of mine is a firefighter and they have 1 open gay guy at the fire house. They all joke and its cool he makes jokes, they make them back but they are all boys and would die for each other. Now if he grabbed someones dick it would be a different story but they are all adults and know which lines cannot be crossed.

this is pretty much what i've been saying, but you said it better.

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
^^^Hessian, how many locker rooms you've been in with guys making penis jokes while you stand around naked?

In all my years of being in hockey locker rooms, I've heard one penis joke and it was from the opposing team about my pecker! (We had a shared bathroom). Needless to say they lost 22-0.

it wasn't a literal example, more of a joke, but i think you get my point.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

This is ridiculous to be honest, because I feel like when someone talks about gay people and I don't care, that's not good enough, but if I say my opinion like about this, then all of a sudden you people act like we hate them. I'm sick of hearing about them. Whatever they want to do is fine but I don't want it to be MY BUSINESS. And they are making it everyone else's business if they say so in the lockerroom.

Yeah, you just want gay people to stay in the closet because it's a huge affront to your life to know that gay people exist. Quite frankly, it's totally disrespectful of people to live their lives around you because it gets in the way of your hang-ups and your issues. What jerks they are! If everyone would just spend their lives walking on eggshells when it comes to your stupid issues the world would be a better place.

You want to have it both ways. You say you don't care when people talk about the existence of gay people, yet all you've done in this thread is display how insanely much you care. Pick one or the other.

Quite simply, you're a homophobe dude, get over it. Nobody is mad at you. People are confused as to how it is you've convinced yourself that it is the responsibility of everyone else in the world to defer to you on your silliness on this issue. Make sense?

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

This is ridiculous to be honest, because I feel like when someone talks about gay people and I don't care, that's not good enough, but if I say my opinion like about this, then all of a sudden you people act like we hate them. I'm sick of hearing about them. Whatever they want to do is fine but I don't want it to be MY BUSINESS. And they are making it everyone else's business if they say so in the lockerroom.

Yeah, you just want gay people to stay in the closet because it's a huge affront to your life to know that gay people exist. Quite frankly, it's totally disrespectful of people to live their lives around you because it gets in the way of your hang-ups and your issues. What jerks they are! If everyone would just spend their lives walking on eggshells when it comes to your stupid issues the world would be a better place.

You want to have it both ways. You say you don't care when people talk about the existence of gay people, yet all you've done in this thread is display how insanely much you care. Pick one or the other.

Quite simply, you're a homophobe dude, get over it. Nobody is mad at you. People are confused as to how it is you've convinced yourself that it is the responsibility of everyone else in the world to defer to you on your silliness on this issue. Make sense?

LOL My point is I don't want to take a shower with a big buff gay guy even if I was in the NFL, I know people who have played who wouldn't want to, I don't think many gay people in the NFL(not that there are many to begin with!) would come out because it's more ammo that can be used against them on the field, I don't think their teammates want to know they're gay and worried about being checked out in the shower, etc.

I don't really care about gay people one way or the other, I certainly don't hate them, but I don't want to take a shower with one and it would cause a lot of distractions for their teammates. I don't know if that makes me a homophobe but whatever. You seem to want to get all self-righteous and shove into everyone's faces how we need to be accepting and that we hate them and it infers that you're better than everyone else because you feel like you're more accepting than everyone else and we're hateful bigot homophobes or something like that. To be honest I think that's rather pretentious of you but whatever. This argument is a waste of my time and I think a lot of people have the same stance I have, that they wouldn't want to be in a shower with a gay guy and it would cause some distractions for their team, but whatever. And instead of being willing to agree to disagree you're calling me a homophobe and implying you're better than everyone else because you love gay people. Whatever, I don't really care anymore.

Oh and one last thing. Why don't you find a gigantic big buff gay guy, offer to go play some soccer or football or something, then tell him to take a shower with you, and we'll see how that works out for you.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
a gigantic big buff gay guy,

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

LOL My point is I don't want to take a shower with a big buff gay guy even if I was in the NFL, I know people who have played who wouldn't want to, I don't think many gay people in the NFL(not that there are many to begin with!) would come out because it's more ammo that can be used against them on the field, I don't think their teammates want to know they're gay and worried about being checked out in the shower, etc.

I don't really care about gay people one way or the other, I certainly don't hate them, but I don't want to take a shower with one and it would cause a lot of distractions for their teammates. I don't know if that makes me a homophobe but whatever. You seem to want to get all self-righteous and shove into everyone's faces how we need to be accepting and that we hate them and it infers that you're better than everyone else because you feel like you're more accepting than everyone else and we're hateful bigot homophobes or something like that. To be honest I think that's rather pretentious of you but whatever. This argument is a waste of my time and I think a lot of people have the same stance I have, that they wouldn't want to be in a shower with a gay guy and it would cause some distractions for their team, but whatever. And instead of being willing to agree to disagree you're calling me a homophobe and implying you're better than everyone else because you love gay people. Whatever, I don't really care anymore.

Oh and one last thing. Why don't you find a gigantic big buff gay guy, offer to go play some soccer or football or something, then tell him to take a shower with you, and we'll see how that works out for you.

Try to keep it together. I never claimed that I'm better than you, and I certainly didn't claim that I'm better than "everyone else." If you read that into my post, it wasn't my intention. Sorry. I didn't call you a hateful bigot either. I called you homophobe.

I also don't want to shove anything in anyone's face. From what you've written, it seems that the problem here is that you consider any act by a gay person beyond remaining entirely in the closet to be an act of "shoving sexuality in people's face." As I'm sure you could guess, I find that laughably restrictive. Suppose a gay person acted exactly as a straight person, referring to his boyfriend or husband normally in situations in which his husband or boyfriend came up, much like a straight guy might mention his girlfriend or wife in a situation in which she might come up.

It seems that for you, this scenario in which a straight person is just talking normally as people do isn't a problem, but if a gay person is just talking normally as people do, they're "shoving their sexuality in your face." Do you see the double standard? If a straight friend mentions his wife or girlfriend when it's appropriate to the conversation do you get mad at him for shoving his sexuality in your face? If not, then why the double standard? For me, it's clear you have an issue with homosexuality despite how much you claim not to. It doesn't make you hateful or a bigot, but I'm commenting on how silly it is to insist that the rest of the world would be better off tip-toeing because you have an issue. I'm saying it's your problem, and your job to get over it or not. The fantasy world in which everyone kowtows to your hangups isn't very realistic, in my opinion.


Edit: sorry, fixed a couple typos. I'm sure there's a couple more.

Originally posted by jreff22:

I don't think its THAT big of a issue. Ive known a good amount of gay guys and they joke but who gives a s**t I joke also. Best example a buddy of mine is a firefighter and they have 1 open gay guy at the fire house. They all joke and its cool he makes jokes, they make them back but they are all boys and would die for each other. Now if he grabbed someones dick it would be a different story but they are all adults and know which lines cannot be crossed.

Seriously. To be fair, in locker rooms and fire houses and frat houses and practically all entirely male-dominated spaces, the straight guys are smacking each other's butts and flicking each dicks and joking around about gay sex WAY MORE OFTEN than the occasional gay guy would.