Vernon Davis

Originally posted by Rascal:

Let's get this straight once and for all.

Good luck on that "once and for all."

This is Niner Talk. There is no once and for all.

Originally posted by Rascal:

I can't believe people are still arguing about this and looking at stuff like how many % of the time he lines up as a TE vs WR and all that.

Let's get this straight once and for all.

Put it this way, there is a reason why there is such a vast difference in the franchise tag numbers between a TE at $7 mil and a WR at $12 mil. So, why you may ask ? Well, simply put, historically speaking TEs are used to block more and may be catch a ball or two once in a blue moon, in other words TEs weren't designed to produce massive numbers for any given team whereas WRs were the main offensive weapon as far as the passing game goes.

The truth is the game has long moved on with the emergence of the new breed of TEs such as Jimmy Graham, Vernon and Gronk plus teams have learnt to utilize TEs in a far more aggressive way to aid their offense.

I read a comment about VD's numbers being no way near Jimmy Graham's. That is such BS and can't be any further from the truth. Graham might have more yards and 3 more TDs last season, but do you know how much more did Brees wing the ball as compared to Kap ?! Brees threw for 5,162 yards !! That is almost 2,000 yards more than the 9ers. And still, Vernon was the 2nd TE with the most number of TDs, ranked 3rd amongst all TEs and WRs with 13 TDs. Dare I say if we had thrown for another 2,000 yards VD would have easily surpassed Graham's 16 TDs !!

Bottomline ? Vernon is definitely worth more than $7 mil and same goes with Graham. You could argue oh well if we gave VD a raise it would affect the cap room and all that. As for me ? I am all about winning, if you can find a guy on the roster who could replace Vernon and fill up that 13 TDs, then OK. But, sorry to say we don't have that guy. Our next highest TD scorer was Anquan who only had 7 TDs, pretty much only half of Vernon's production, he may have more yards, but who cares about that when you don't score ?

If I was a TE and I scored more than the leading WR on the team, heck I would want WR money too. The problem is we are approaching the payscale totally wrong. We are basing pay on positions as opposed to actual production or merit which is ridiculous.

If you want to levy the blame on Vernon, you should be putting the blame on Baalke instead. Say if he had picked Alshon Jeffrey instead of AJ Jenkins aka the bust, just may be we wouldn't have to rely so heavily on Vernon to come through for us and we wouldn't be debating about this in the first place.

Sorry but I have to disagree with the worth way more then hes getting paid. Hes getting paid a fair amount for a pure te, which essentially he is, especially in a power run offense such as ours and not a pass pass and then pass some more offense like the Saints. He is a receiving threat and a freak of nature type athlete, but he doesnt play a receiver role in this offense, he plays an actual tight end role so being the third highest paid tight end is the correct salary.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Sorry but I have to disagree with the worth way more then hes getting paid. Hes getting paid a fair amount for a pure te, which essentially he is, especially in a power run offense such as ours and not a pass pass and then pass some more offense like the Saints. He is a receiving threat and a freak of nature type athlete, but he doesnt play a receiver role in this offense, he plays an actual tight end role so being the third highest paid tight end is the correct salary.

I beg your pardon. If VD doesn't play a receiver role, how is it possible he had 13 TDs ?!

Perhaps you should define what is a TE role vs a WR role first ?

If we only play Vernon to block then I wouldn't argue with you. But, the problem is it is furthest from the truth. We play and indeed need to play Vernon as a receiver.

Let me ask you this, what do you think would happen if we didn't have Vernon ? Deduct 13 TDs from our total 21 passing TDs ? LOL.

The truth is if we cut him tomorrow, there would be teams lining up to sign him and paying him more than $7 mil, now whether you would like to categorize that as TE or WR money that is another matter.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Sorry but I have to disagree with the worth way more then hes getting paid. Hes getting paid a fair amount for a pure te, which essentially he is, especially in a power run offense such as ours and not a pass pass and then pass some more offense like the Saints. He is a receiving threat and a freak of nature type athlete, but he doesnt play a receiver role in this offense, he plays an actual tight end role so being the third highest paid tight end is the correct salary.

To add, you do remember the coaches had to put Vernon in the WR group during last training camp right ? If Vernon doesn't play a receiver role, why would we train him as one then ? You didn't see us putting Vance McDonald, Celek and Carrier in the WR group to train right, did you ?

Originally posted by Rascal:

I beg your pardon. If VD doesn't play a receiver role, how is it possible he had 13 TDs ?!

Perhaps you should define what is a TE role vs a WR role first ?

If we only play Vernon to block then I wouldn't argue with you. But, the problem is it is furthest from the truth. We play and indeed need to play Vernon as a receiver.

Let me ask you this, what do you think would happen if we didn't have Vernon ? Deduct 13 TDs from our total 21 passing TDs ? LOL.

The truth is if we cut him tomorrow, there would be teams lining up to sign him and paying him more than $7 mil, now whether you would like to categorize that as TE or WR money that is another matter.

I didnt say anything about cutting him so dont overreact to my opinion. Hell cutting him would be a terrible idea. But the tight end position technically is a hybrid position of a receiver and an olineman, which correct me if im wrong has been exactly what vernon has been doing for this team since Harbaugh began hence Vernons slow start in the Harbaugh era due to "refreshing" his blocking skills. Vernon blocks for this team alot. Thus making him more of a pure te then a receiver. Those numbers you argue against are exactly what makes him a pure tight end and what makes his pay scale fair. I may totally wrong on this but it is just my opinion. I dont wanna lose vernon just as much as anyone else, but I also dont want the team to pay a tight end a #1 receivers salary either. Especially when we have a receiving core as deep as ours and he may not get as many touches as he is accustomed to.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
I didnt say anything about cutting him so dont overreact to my opinion. Hell cutting him would be a terrible idea. But the tight end position technically is a hybrid position of a receiver and an olineman, which correct me if im wrong has been exactly what vernon has been doing for this team since Harbaugh began hence Vernons slow start in the Harbaugh era due to "refreshing" his blocking skills. Vernon blocks for this team alot. Thus making him more of a pure te then a receiver. Those numbers you argue against are exactly what makes him a pure tight end and what makes his pay scale fair. I may totally wrong on this but it is just my opinion. I dont wanna lose vernon just as much as anyone else, but I also dont want the team to pay a tight end a #1 receivers salary either. Especially when we have a receiving core as deep as ours and he may not get as many touches as he is accustomed to.

Well, is a good job that Vernon is such a good blocker too, isn't it ? Then you add on the fact that he outscored every single WR in our receiving corp, that basically means 2 things :

1) Vernon has far out-performed the position as a TE and any other TE for that matter on the roster.

2) More importantly, not only did Vernon outscored every single WR in the team, he also blocked far better than any one of them.

Conclusion = Vernon has out-performed against all TEs and WRs in the team which needless to say makes his case even stronger. Makes sense ?

its not hard to outperform a bunch of injured receivers. And although he scored more tds then Boldin, Boldin covered more ground and had to hold the fort for the receiving core most of the year due to injuries. Davis was somewhat free to do what the team asked of him because we didnt have a lack of healthy tight ends to stay behind and block so Vernon could run routes. I think all of this is getting blown way out of proportion. Vernons extension in 2010 was record breaking, imo hes getting what he deserves salary wise, at least for this team an offense, maybe on a pass first team he would be worth more running much more of a receiver role. But we can just agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Rascal:
Well, is a good job that Vernon is such a good blocker too, isn't it ? Then you add on the fact that he outscored every single WR in our receiving corp, that basically means 2 things :

1) Vernon has far out-performed the position as a TE and any other TE for that matter on the roster.

2) More importantly, not only did Vernon outscored every single WR in the team, he also blocked far better than any one of them.

Conclusion = Vernon has out-performed against all TEs and WRs in the team which needless to say makes his case even stronger. Makes sense ?

So...your point it that VD out-performed every TE on the roster, therefore he should be the highest paid? He is. I can assure you he makes more than McDonald and Celek. Combined, in fact.

Your point of him out-performing the position - how? Are you aware that when he signed his contract two years ago, it was the biggest contract ANY TE had EVER seen? So how has he out-played that? Has he had the most catches, yards, or TD's of any TE the last two years? Nope - not even close. VD's own best season was 78 catches for 965 yards and 13 TD's. Has he exceeded those numbers in either of the last two seasons? Again, no.

Conclusion = Vernon has not outplayed his contract and has no valid argument for demanding more money. Makes sense?

We need VD for this run. At least he will be fresh when he comes back.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

We need VD for this run. At least he will be fresh when he comes back.

yes. hopefully he talks to his best friend sing, and gets a little sense smacked into him.

Originally posted by RDB4216:
So...your point it that VD out-performed every TE on the roster, therefore he should be the highest paid? He is. I can assure you he makes more than McDonald and Celek. Combined, in fact.

Your point of him out-performing the position - how? Are you aware that when he signed his contract two years ago, it was the biggest contract ANY TE had EVER seen? So how has he out-played that? Has he had the most catches, yards, or TD's of any TE the last two years? Nope - not even close. VD's own best season was 78 catches for 965 yards and 13 TD's. Has he exceeded those numbers in either of the last two seasons? Again, no.

Conclusion = Vernon has not outplayed his contract and has no valid argument for demanding more money. Makes sense?

No, my point is he out-performed all TEs AND WRs.

Conclusion = Vernon has far out-performed his contract as a TE and outside of his contract as a WR and yes which makes it a valid argument for demanding more money. Makes sense ?

Let's not forget how severely he underplayed his rookie contract. He received a 5 year 23 million dollar deal which I believe made him the highest paid tight end before he played a single snap. If you combine his two contracts, he is the highest paid tight end of all time.

Originally posted by Rascal:

Well, is a good job that Vernon is such a good blocker too, isn't it ? Then you add on the fact that he outscored every single WR in our receiving corp, that basically means 2 things :

1) Vernon has far out-performed the position as a TE and any other TE for that matter on the roster.

2) More importantly, not only did Vernon outscored every single WR in the team, he also blocked far better than any one of them.

Conclusion = Vernon has out-performed against all TEs and WRs in the team which needless to say makes his case even stronger. Makes sense ?

Originally posted by Rascal:

Originally posted by LoneWolf:

I didnt say anything about cutting him so dont overreact to my opinion. Hell cutting him would be a terrible idea. But the tight end position technically is a hybrid position of a receiver and an olineman, which correct me if im wrong has been exactly what vernon has been doing for this team since Harbaugh began hence Vernons slow start in the Harbaugh era due to "refreshing" his blocking skills. Vernon blocks for this team alot. Thus making him more of a pure te then a receiver. Those numbers you argue against are exactly what makes him a pure tight end and what makes his pay scale fair. I may totally wrong on this but it is just my opinion. I dont wanna lose vernon just as much as anyone else, but I also dont want the team to pay a tight end a #1 receivers salary either. Especially when we have a receiving core as deep as ours and he may not get as many touches as he is accustomed to.

Well, is a good job that Vernon is such a good blocker too, isn't it ? Then you add on the fact that he outscored every single WR in our receiving corp, that basically means 2 things :

1) Vernon has far out-performed the position as a TE and any other TE for that matter on the roster.

2) More importantly, not only did Vernon outscored every single WR in the team, he also blocked far better than any one of them.

Conclusion = Vernon has out-performed against all TEs and WRs in the team which needless to say makes his case even stronger. Makes sense ?

I am not sure that this argument makes any sense.

Davis is under contract for two more years: 2014 and 2015.

In 2014, Davis's total income is higher than any wide receiver on the team.
He has the 2nd highest income on the team in 2014.

In 2015, Davis's total income is higher than any wide receiver on the team.
He has the 6th highest income on the team in 2015.

Total income = base salary, signing bonus, roster bonus and workout bonus.

http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=49ers


When I look at these figures, I get even more confused about this holdout than I already am.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
its not hard to outperform a bunch of injured receivers. And although he scored more tds then Boldin, Boldin covered more ground and had to hold the fort for the receiving core most of the year due to injuries. Davis was somewhat free to do what the team asked of him because we didnt have a lack of healthy tight ends to stay behind and block so Vernon could run routes. I think all of this is getting blown way out of proportion. Vernons extension in 2010 was record breaking, imo hes getting what he deserves salary wise, at least for this team an offense, maybe on a pass first team he would be worth more running much more of a receiver role. But we can just agree to disagree.

Vernon was free to do what he wanted ? Listen, if there wasn't a Vernon, Anquan would have been shut down cos it would mean in every single down the opposing team could just put all resources on Anquan to double-team him. With Vernon being such a threat, teams have to cover him, so he dilutes the coverage for our WRs to make plays.

And who were the bunch of injured receivers ? Crab ? Listen, the 9ers were so desperate when Crab went down, that was why they put Vernon with the WR group to train during camp. And luckily Vernon kept his end of the bargain and balled out with 13 TDs. You can't have it both ways when you needed him you played him as a WR, then the guy went out to get you 13 TDs and all of a sudden you are saying he is not worth it.

Originally posted by Rascal:
No, my point is he out-performed all TEs AND WRs.

Conclusion = Vernon has far out-performed his contract as a TE and outside of his contract as a WR and yes which makes it a valid argument for demanding more money. Makes sense ?

No, you still have not shown how he outplayed his contract. Again, his stats the last two seasons don't even equal what he had done previously to get his current contract. It doesn't matter what he has done to compare to other teammates. VD signed his own contract based on the team's value and expectations of him. His pay went up. His stats went down. Has. Not. Outplayed. His. Contract.

Oh and BTW, Boldin had 30+ more catches and over 300 more yards. So no, VD didn't out perform all the WR's. Even though VD got paid more than Boldin last year.