Vernon Davis

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

i will tell you what happens.

That player is tagged and is under contract for that team.

It's up to the player to sign that tender or hold out for a year to become eligible to be a free agent.

So by not agreeing to the TE Franchise tag he would be holding out

I think that you are mistaken.

Graham does not have a current valid contract.

If he does not sign the franchise tag, he may have to sit out the year before he becomes a free agent.]

I seriously doubt that the team has the legal right to impose a contract on a player unwilling to sigh a contract.

A hold out is a breach of contract, and any player who holds out is subject to a fine.

If Graham does not sign the franchise tag, will he be subject to a fine when he signs with a team in following year.

I do not think so.

But, I admire your capacity to avoid acknowledging that you were in error when you indicated the Graham is hold out.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

hold�out noun ˈhōld-ˌau̇t : a person who refuses to reach an agreement until certain terms are met : a person who holds out

: an act of holding out for something

: a person who continues to do or use something after others have stopped doing or using it

please read the CBA.

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
i will tell you what happens.

That player is tagged and is under contract for that team.

It's up to the player to sign that tender or hold out for a year to become eligible to be a free agent.

So by not agreeing to the TE Franchise tag he would be holding out

I think that you are mistaken.

Graham does not have a current valid contract.

If he does not sign the franchise tag, he may have to sit out the year before he becomes a free agent.]

I seriously doubt that the team has the legal right to impose a contract on a player unwilling to sigh a contract.

A hold out is a breach of contract, and any player who holds out is subject to a fine.

If Graham does not sign the franchise tag, will he be subject to a fine when he signs with a team in following year.

I do not think so.

But, I admire your capacity to avoid acknowledging that you were in error when you indicated the Graham is hold out.

a franchise tag is imposing a one year contract with the avg of the top 5 paid players at that position.

the breach of contract is having to sit out a year without pay

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
hold�out noun ˈhōld-ˌau̇t : a person who refuses to reach an agreement until certain terms are met : a person who holds out

: an act of holding out for something

: a person who continues to do or use something after others have stopped doing or using it

please read the CBA.

please read hold out definition

Honest question: Will Graham be fined for missing mini camp? How about training camp?

Chris

Originally posted by ManBearPig99:
Honest question: Will Graham be fined for missing mini camp? How about training camp?

Chris

i don't think so, but he doesn't get paid as well...the longer he holds out..the longer it takes to get paid. Not that he's hurting for money

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by ManBearPig99:
Honest question: Will Graham be fined for missing mini camp? How about training camp?

Chris

i don't think so, but he doesn't get paid as well...the longer he holds out..the longer it takes to get paid. Not that he's hurting for money

I think that's right. He has not signed the franchise tag, so he's not obligated to show up at any point.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

hold�out noun ˈhōld-ˌau̇t : a person who refuses to reach an agreement until certain terms are met : a person who holds out

: an act of holding out for something

: a person who continues to do or use something after others have stopped doing or using it

please read the CBA.

please read hold out definition

I have read the contract.

Holding out is mentioned twice in the CBA.

Once in Section 9: Forfeiture of Salary and once in Section 8. Good faith negotiations.

Neither specifically talk about a player who has refused to sign a franchise tag.

If franchise tag is imposed on free agents and free agents by definition are not under contract, I do not think a breach of contract can exist if a player is not under contract.

We can disagree about what would happen in future, if Graham does not sign his franchise tag.

But, be honest. You claimed that Graham is a hold out now.

At this point, Graham is not a hold out.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by ManBearPig99:

Honest question: Will Graham be fined for missing mini camp? How about training camp?

Chris

i don't think so, but he doesn't get paid as well...the longer he holds out..the longer it takes to get paid. Not that he's hurting for money

If Graham sits out for a year, he will not be paid.

He will not be paid precisely because he is not under contract.

A player without a contract will not be paid, and if a player is not under contract and is not paid, the player can not be fined.

It is not complicated. Fines are for players who breach their contract.

If players do not have contract, they cannot breach a contract, and therefore cannot be fined for a breach of contract.

Holding out is a breach of contract. Hence, the only players who can hold out are players under contract.

I'll take a large Razzmatazz with whey protein and antioxidants, sir...

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by ManBearPig99:

Honest question: Will Graham be fined for missing mini camp? How about training camp?

Chris

i don't think so, but he doesn't get paid as well...the longer he holds out..the longer it takes to get paid. Not that he's hurting for money

If Graham sits out for a year, he will not be paid.

He will not be paid precisely because he is not under contract.

A player without a contract will not be paid, and if a player is not under contract and is not paid, the player can not be fined.

It is not complicated. Fines are for players who breach their contract.

If players do not have contract, they cannot breach a contract, and therefore cannot be fined for a breach of contract.

Holding out is a breach of contract. Hence, the only players who can hold out are players under contract.

Please look at the hold out definition again

And his rights are owned by the team if he doesn't play...which is in a contract held by the NFL and his fine would be not getting paid and not being able to play for anyone else

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Please look at the hold out definition again

And his rights are owned by the team if he doesn't play...which is in a contract held by the NFL and his fine would be not getting paid and not being able to play for anyone else

I have read the contact.

The fact that the team owns Graham's rights does not mean that Graham is under contract.

I understand that if a player does not play, the team will not pay him.

Are you saying that not paying a player who is not under contract is a fine?

Again, we can debate how to define the consequences of what a refusal to sign the franchise tender mean, but are you willing to acknowledge that as of this minute Graham is not a hold out ?

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Please look at the hold out definition again

And his rights are owned by the team if he doesn't play...which is in a contract held by the NFL and his fine would be not getting paid and not being able to play for anyone else

I have read the contact.

The fact that the team owns Graham's rights does not mean that Graham is under contract.

I understand that if a player does not play, the team will not pay him.

Are you saying that not paying a player who is not under contract is a fine?

Again, we can debate how to define the consequences of what a refusal to sign the franchise tender mean, but are you willing to acknowledge that as of this minute Graham is not a hold out ?

So what makes a team have rights to a player that doesn't play that is not under contract

Also here is the definition again....when a person does not reach agreement until their needs are met is a hold out..

Hate to break it to ya, but graham is not agreeing to the TE franchise tag pay

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

So what makes a team have rights to a player that doesn't play that is not under contract

I do not know the answer to that question.

Again, the fact that a team owns the rights to player does not mean the player is under contract, does it.

Again, are you willing to acknowledge that as of now, Graham is not a hold out.

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

So what makes a team have rights to a player that doesn't play that is not under contract

I do not know the answer to that question.

Again, the fact that a team owns the rights to player does not mean the player is under contract, does it.

Again, are you willing to acknowledge that as of now, Graham is not a hold out.

Exactly you don't know