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Let's bring back a variation of the run and shoot

  • fryet
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Offensively, it seems like the teams are all doing variations of the west coast offense. Large wide receivers. Pass to setup the run. Fullback/halfback back field.

There is nothing wrong with that, but I think there are advantages to being different, especially in the draft. If you can develop a viable system that uses other types of personnel, it gives you an advantage over other teams who aren't used to defending against it.

The 49ers are trying this with a run first team, but unfortunately defenses are good enough against the run, that I doubt that a team will have great offensive success by being primarily run-oriented.

Anyway, here is a type of offense that I would love to see in the NFL. 4 WR, ace back set. But here are the personnel:
ace back - quick/shifty back, ideally someone like Barry Sanders, or in today's NFL, Reggie Bush
2 WR - small, quick WR. Not in the mold of a west coast receiver, but more in the mold of Steve Smith.
2 WR/TE - Here, I am envisioning 2 players like Delanie Walker. Undersized for a TE, but oversized for a WR. They can help out in blocking as needed (but they aren't that good at it), and also go out for passes.

The ace back won't be expected to run for a first down on 3rd and 1 too much. The ace back is there to punish defenses that want to stay in nickel or dime defense all day. The ace back is also responsible to help with blocking.

2 WR - Takes advantage of their small size to run routes that the bigger CBs have difficulty adjusting to. They are also very fast, so provide a home run threat.

2 WR/TE - Also run a lot of routes, but may also be called in to pass protect at times as well. They can also be shifted before the snap to act as a fullback lead-block for the running back.

This offensive scheme requires a good QB and pass-blocking OL. Ideally the QB can also run with the ball, but accuracy is more important than running, since this offense will be passing the ball at least 70% of the time.

From a draft perspective, this team would be able to get value picks for all 4 of their WR. WR/TE tweeners are not that popular in the NFL, nor are small/fast WR. RB could also be a value pick, but elite backs that are also big enough to pass block well would also be attractive.

This offensive-scheme would also work well with a no-huddle offense, as few situational substitutions are needed.
I hated the run and shoot. So, no!
  • Riot
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A quarterback like Colt McCoy would be perfect in that system.
This isn't college football.
  • fryet
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I remember that the Houston Oilers had a fair amount of success with the system. What is wrong with different teams running different offensive schemes? Personally, I think it would make the NFL more interesting, and improve the overall quality of the league (more tweeners would be able to be successful in the league, instead of every team vying for the big WR).
  • Riot
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Originally posted by fryet:
I remember that the Houston Oilers had a fair amount of success with the system. What is wrong with different teams running different offensive schemes? Personally, I think it would make the NFL more interesting, and improve the overall quality of the league (more tweeners would be able to be successful in the league, instead of every team vying for the big WR).

I totally agree.
Originally posted by Riot:
Originally posted by fryet:
I remember that the Houston Oilers had a fair amount of success with the system. What is wrong with different teams running different offensive schemes? Personally, I think it would make the NFL more interesting, and improve the overall quality of the league (more tweeners would be able to be successful in the league, instead of every team vying for the big WR).

I totally agree.

Oh I agree. I just want it to be the other teams which adopt it!
  • fryet
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  • Posts: 2,872
Right now, the only part of the run and shoot that the 49ers have is their TE - Delanie Walker and Vernon Davis. So, I agree, the 49ers should not implement this. It should be implemented by a team that is in serious rebuilding mode (like Detroit or KC).
Originally posted by fryet:
I remember that the Houston Oilers had a fair amount of success with the system. What is wrong with different teams running different offensive schemes? Personally, I think it would make the NFL more interesting, and improve the overall quality of the league (more tweeners would be able to be successful in the league, instead of every team vying for the big WR).

THey had a QB named Warren Moon. That pretty much says it.

NFL defenses now would eat it up. Moon got sacked alot and that was before defenses
started zone blitzing.
  • krizay
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  • Posts: 14,931
Quote:
The 49ers are trying this with a run first team, but unfortunately defenses are good enough against the run, that I doubt that a team will have great offensive success by being primarily run-oriented

we want to run the ball 60% of the time. A bit much IMO but.... last year
Ravens ran 56% of the time
Falcons 55%
panthers 54%
Titans 52%

Guess what all 4 teams have in common? they all made the playoffs. With 2 of the 4 in the conference championship game. Thus their offensive success must have been good enough.

Quote:
Anyway, here is a type of offense that I would love to see in the NFL. 4 WR, ace back set. But here are the personnel:
ace back - quick/shifty back, ideally someone like Barry Sanders, or in today's NFL, Reggie Bush
2 WR - small, quick WR. Not in the mold of a west coast receiver, but more in the mold of Steve Smith

Carolina has a quick/shifty back in DeAngelo Williams and they have the best Steve Smtih mold type WR you can find. and they still ran the ball 54% of the time and made it to the conference championship game.

Quote:
This offensive scheme requires a good QB and pass-blocking OL
. name me 1 system that doesn't need this?

Quote:
From a draft perspective, this team would be able to get value picks for all 4 of their WR. WR/TE tweeners are not that popular in the NFL, nor are small/fast WR. RB could also be a value pick, but elite backs that are also big enough to pass block well would also be attractive.

I'll grant you the WR/TE tweeners on this. but small fast WR's (who can play) get taken all the time. Yeah we can take a small/fast guy just to take a small fast guy. Doesn't mean we'd get value. Cause if that small fast guy can play. someone will take him regardless.




As you said this offense needs an accurate QB and a great O-line. In which case if you had that. You can run any kind of offense you want to run. And from the draft perspective you would be able to draft the type of players your OC wants instead of trying to fit round pegs in a square hole.
  • fryet
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This system would have tight ends, so sacks shouldn't be too bad. There is always the chicken and the egg syndrome when it comes to schemes. Was Warren Moon great because he was in a run and shoot, or did he make the run and shoot great? What about Joe Montana and the West Coast offense? The answer is probably a bit of both.

As for drafting the same as other teams, let me show some differences between conventional teams and what I am proposing.

WR - Sure you see the Tedd Ginns being drafted around pick number 15, but you don't see them drafted top 5 overall (Calvin Johnson, Braylon Edwards). If you can get an elite player (for your system) at pick number 15, that is a big advantage.

OL - Everyone wants the huge run blocking lineman that can also pass protect. With this system, you can give up some size (and suffer in the run game) to focus on those that are only good at pass blocking. Smaller lineman are also better able to handle the speed rushers that are popular in the NFL. I think this is key to the 49er's success in the Bill Walsh years. They drafted smaller lineman in later rounds, and based on their pass blocking they made it to the Pro Bowl.
  • krizay
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Originally posted by fryet:
This system would have tight ends, so sacks shouldn't be too bad. There is always the chicken and the egg syndrome when it comes to schemes. Was Warren Moon great because he was in a run and shoot, or did he make the run and shoot great? What about Joe Montana and the West Coast offense? The answer is probably a bit of both.

As for drafting the same as other teams, let me show some differences between conventional teams and what I am proposing.

WR - Sure you see the Tedd Ginns being drafted around pick number 15, but you don't see them drafted top 5 overall (Calvin Johnson, Braylon Edwards). If you can get an elite player (for your system) at pick number 15, that is a big advantage.

OL - Everyone wants the huge run blocking lineman that can also pass protect. With this system, you can give up some size (and suffer in the run game) to focus on those that are only good at pass blocking. Smaller lineman are also better able to handle the speed rushers that are popular in the NFL. I think this is key to the 49er's success in the Bill Walsh years. They drafted smaller lineman in later rounds, and based on their pass blocking they made it to the Pro Bowl.

Actually Ted Ginn was drafted in the top 10 not 15. But I get the gist.

There are sooooooo many flaws in your argument.

An elite receiver is an elite receiver period. An elite receiver can play in any system period. Ted Ginn isn't going to be an elite player because he fits the scheme you want to run. If all you want is fast guys then yea you're right we can get steals every draft. But if you want fast guys who can play. You're going to have about the same chance as getting one as any other team that runs any other kind of offense.

ONTO the Olineman. Teams want lineman that can protect their player. Indy, New Orleans and New England. Would obviously want to protect their QB's 1st. So pass protecting probably priority #1. What about Indy, Jacksonville and Carolina Their likely #1 priority would be run blocker.

With all that said. If a good team sees a player who can do 1 or the other reall well (like I assume you're suggesting) That player isn't going to last all that long to get great value. Yea you may get a good player but it won't be because you run that kind of offense and other teams didn't want him.

In Bill walsh's day. We ran quick passes. Didn't need those great big guys to hang in there for 7 step drops and 30 yard passes. Also they made the pro bowl because we wre flava of the month (or decade if you will) not saying they weren't good or didn't deserve it. But the best team(s) in the league always post the most pro bowl players regardless of anything.


All I'm saying is

A: if you get the personnel to run your variation of the run and shoot. Then you have the personnel for almost any offense.

B: I don't see where you gain an advantage drafting.

C: just because a guy fits your system doesn't make him, the system or the team great.
  • fryet
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I won't disagree that an elite receiver would not do well in a run and shoot offense - they would do well. But you don't have to draft an elite receiver to get a very good receiver in a run and shoot offense. But your small/fast WR that is ideal for a run and shoot, will be ignored by the west coast teams that want a big/fast WR. That means your only competition for those WR will be other teams that like small/fast. Sure a great small/WR receiver will end up being drafted by teams where it is not an ideal fit for their scheme, but they will usually wait till later in the draft to get them.

As for small OL that are good at pass blocking, yes a run and shoot team would not be the only one who would draft them, but there are other teams that would pass them by (like the 49ers), because they have more of a focus on running.