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Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson - Legit alternative to Jared Goff in 2017?

  • Rascal
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Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Looks good. I am going to have to check out a Clemson game in its entirety to get a better look at him.

See what I mean about this kid? I wasn't joking when I said I was really trying to find an alternative option to drafting Jared Goff in 2016. But, right now the analysts are already saying DeShaun Watson will be the No. 1 QB prospect in the 2017 draft. It will most likely take a top 5 if not top 3 pick to land him.

That's something else I was thinking about. One of my friend's is a Redskins fan and we were talking about the Rams-Redskins trade. Even though it clearly didn't work out, from the Redskins perspective, I still say it was the right move. When you have an opportunity to get a franchise QB, you make the move. So I began asking myself, if we put together a nice team around Blaine Gabbert through the draft and free agency and he demonstrates that he is not the guy, would it be worth it to make the kind of trade? Sounds crazy, but I say yes, provided that the entire roster is stacked and we just need the right man at QB.

The answer is it is not worth it and I will tell you why.

Since you looked into the RG3 trade-up example, do you remember how much the Redskins actually had to pay the Rams to get to No.2 overall? Well, here it is:

  • Their 2012 1st round pick - No. 6 overall
  • Their 2012 2nd round pick - No. 39 overall
  • Their 2013 1st round pick - No. 22 overall
  • Their 2014 1st round pick - No. 2 overall

In short, it is just WAYYYYY too much.

Apart from that, based on the current state of the 9ers' roster, it will take at an absolute minimum of 2 perfect drafts and most likely 3 to be able to upgrade it enough to first of all take us back to the playoffs and second to mount a meaningful challenge. In other words, even if we don't use up the 2016 1st round pick on Jared Goff, that one draft class alone won't get it done. We will need all the picks we can get especially the high round picks to be able to net in enough impact players to help us climb back out of this hole that we are in.
Originally posted by Rascal:
The answer is it is not worth it and I will tell you why.

Since you looked into the RG3 trade-up example, do you remember how much the Redskins actually had to pay the Rams to get to No.2 overall? Well, here it is:

  • Their 2012 1st round pick - No. 6 overall
  • Their 2012 2nd round pick - No. 39 overall
  • Their 2013 1st round pick - No. 22 overall
  • Their 2014 1st round pick - No. 2 overall

In short, it is just WAYYYYY too much.

Apart from that, based on the current state of the 9ers' roster, it will take at an absolute minimum of 2 perfect drafts and most likely 3 to be able to upgrade it enough to first of all take us back to the playoffs and second to mount a meaningful challenge. In other words, even if we don't use up the 2016 1st round pick on Jared Goff, that one draft class alone won't get it done. We will need all the picks we can get especially the high round picks to be able to net in enough impact players to help us climb back out of this hole that we are in.

This is a decent reason to keep our terrible coaching staff around another year to lock up a top 5 pick in 2017 if there isn't a QB we like in 2016. I'm hoping for Goff, but Watson or Kaaya could be decent alternatives. Watson scares me a little because he's surrounded by talent at Clemson and we've seen QB's look better surrounded by talent. We know Goff can play on a bad team and that he won't throw his teammates under the bus.

It's risky passing on a QB this year and hoping we'll be in position to draft one next year, but if Tunsil/Bosa/Nkemdiche is there and we don't love Goff/Lynch, I'd be fine waiting a year and seeing how Gabbert does. Luck is scheduled to be a free agent too not that we're in the best position to sign him.
  • Rascal
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Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Originally posted by Rascal:
The answer is it is not worth it and I will tell you why.

Since you looked into the RG3 trade-up example, do you remember how much the Redskins actually had to pay the Rams to get to No.2 overall? Well, here it is:

  • Their 2012 1st round pick - No. 6 overall
  • Their 2012 2nd round pick - No. 39 overall
  • Their 2013 1st round pick - No. 22 overall
  • Their 2014 1st round pick - No. 2 overall

In short, it is just WAYYYYY too much.

Apart from that, based on the current state of the 9ers' roster, it will take at an absolute minimum of 2 perfect drafts and most likely 3 to be able to upgrade it enough to first of all take us back to the playoffs and second to mount a meaningful challenge. In other words, even if we don't use up the 2016 1st round pick on Jared Goff, that one draft class alone won't get it done. We will need all the picks we can get especially the high round picks to be able to net in enough impact players to help us climb back out of this hole that we are in.

This is a decent reason to keep our terrible coaching staff around another year to lock up a top 5 pick in 2017 if there isn't a QB we like in 2016. I'm hoping for Goff, but Watson or Kaaya could be decent alternatives. Watson scares me a little because he's surrounded by talent at Clemson and we've seen QB's look better surrounded by talent. We know Goff can play on a bad team and that he won't throw his teammates under the bus.

It's risky passing on a QB this year and hoping we'll be in position to draft one next year, but if Tunsil/Bosa/Nkemdiche is there and we don't love Goff/Lynch, I'd be fine waiting a year and seeing how Gabbert does. Luck is scheduled to be a free agent too not that we're in the best position to sign him.

But, even if we keep Tomsula & Co you can't honestly guarantee me we will be picking top 5 in 2017. I wish it was that simple. Is just too much of a gamble. We aren't even picking No. 5 now with Kap on IR, Vernon traded, Anquan and Carlos injured.
Originally posted by Rascal:
But, even if we keep Tomsula & Co you can't honestly guarantee me we will be picking top 5 in 2017. I wish it was that simple. Is just too much of a gamble. We aren't even picking No. 5 now with Kap on IR, Vernon traded, Anquan and Carlos injured.

Kaep is on IR, but Gabbert has played just as well so we lost nothing there, Davis won't be on the roster in 2017, Boldin is 36, and there are injuries every year. We've looked like the worst team in the league this year and probably should have 2 wins at this point. I'm hoping for (and expect) us to finish the season with a top 5 pick. No one can say for sure we'll have a top 5 pick next year, but we'll be among the favorites for a top 5 pick even if we replace this coaching staff and bring in a few free agents.

I'd rather pick Goff than gamble and hope we have a top 5 pick again, but we could have several high picks over the next few years and don't have to get the highest ranked QB in a class (look at Derek Carr). If we think Tunsil can be the next Tyron Smith or Nkemdiche can be Wilkerson, that's hard to pass up.
I'm watching the Clemson game now. Not a lot of throws by Watson (I don't know what type of balance Clemson normally has), but when he has thrown the ball, he's looked nice.

I understand the concern of the talent he's surrounded by, but when I look at a QB, I just like to see do they maintain their balance in the pocket, how do they throw when under pressure (are they even still looking to throw), where they put the ball when they pass (is it more of a great catch or a great throw), the ability to place the ball in the right spot in tight coverage, ability to hit on different types of passes/routes, and can make the defense pay whenever there is a slip up, whether it's a big play or the simple one. Those types of things are what an NFL QB must do, regardless of the talent level.
  • Rascal
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Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'm watching the Clemson game now. Not a lot of throws by Watson (I don't know what type of balance Clemson normally has), but when he has thrown the ball, he's looked nice.

I understand the concern of the talent he's surrounded by, but when I look at a QB, I just like to see do they maintain their balance in the pocket, how do they throw when under pressure (are they even still looking to throw), where they put the ball when they pass (is it more of a great catch or a great throw), the ability to place the ball in the right spot in tight coverage, ability to hit on different types of passes/routes, and can make the defense pay whenever there is a slip up, whether it's a big play or the simple one. Those types of things are what an NFL QB must do, regardless of the talent level.

I am watching the Michigan vs Ohio State game, but I saw the highlight of that deep ball TD, looked pretty darn good to me.
Watson had another beastly game today. 393 total yards of offense and 4 TDs. The Tigers lost the turnover battle 1-4, so the game was a lot closer than expected. Clemson never trailed, though, and every time they needed some room, he took the team down the field. Would have been a blowout without the 4 fumbles.

Passing
  • 20-27
  • 279 yds
  • 1 TD

Rushing
  • 114 yds
  • 3 TDs
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Looks good. I am going to have to check out a Clemson game in its entirety to get a better look at him.

See what I mean about this kid? I wasn't joking when I said I was really trying to find an alternative option to drafting Jared Goff in 2016. But, right now the analysts are already saying DeShaun Watson will be the No. 1 QB prospect in the 2017 draft. It will most likely take a top 5 if not top 3 pick to land him.

That's something else I was thinking about. One of my friend's is a Redskins fan and we were talking about the Rams-Redskins trade. Even though it clearly didn't work out, from the Redskins perspective, I still say it was the right move. When you have an opportunity to get a franchise QB, you make the move. So I began asking myself, if we put together a nice team around Blaine Gabbert through the draft and free agency and he demonstrates that he is not the guy, would it be worth it to make the kind of trade? Sounds crazy, but I say yes, provided that the entire roster is stacked and we just need the right man at QB.

The answer is it is not worth it and I will tell you why.

Since you looked into the RG3 trade-up example, do you remember how much the Redskins actually had to pay the Rams to get to No.2 overall? Well, here it is:

  • Their 2012 1st round pick - No. 6 overall
  • Their 2012 2nd round pick - No. 39 overall
  • Their 2013 1st round pick - No. 22 overall
  • Their 2014 1st round pick - No. 2 overall

In short, it is just WAYYYYY too much.

Apart from that, based on the current state of the 9ers' roster, it will take at an absolute minimum of 2 perfect drafts and most likely 3 to be able to upgrade it enough to first of all take us back to the playoffs and second to mount a meaningful challenge. In other words, even if we don't use up the 2016 1st round pick on Jared Goff, that one draft class alone won't get it done. We will need all the picks we can get especially the high round picks to be able to net in enough impact players to help us climb back out of this hole that we are in.
I'll be honest with you. NO ONE said it was too much in the aftermath of the 2012 season. It only was too much when it happened and then when RG3 crashed and burned. A franchise QB is just that, a franchise QB. To trade for one, it will essentially cost a franchise. No one can look into a crystal ball and predict how a player is going to turn out, but it's one of those things that if you work, you went all in and won, if it doesn't work out, you're an idiot.

I said I would do it, provided the roster is stacked and it is only a QB that is holding us back. It also has to be one of those, this type of player ain't gonna be available for the next ____ years. Randy Moss was that type of player. Peyton Manning is another. Andrew Luck is as well (regardless of the horrible season, I'd still take him). John Elway was that type. There are certain guys who put your team in a different stratosphere. If that player happens to play QB and was ready to be a day one starter (no projects with high ceilings), I'd make the trade. A little insight into this idea is Bill Walsh's thinking headed into the 1985 draft. Granted, that was a Super Bowl team, but I am talking about the philosophy of adding the player that takes your offense/team to another level as opposed to drafting lots of good players. The Cowboys in my opinion are an example of a team that could get away with making that trade. Talent at O-line, talent at receiver, RB, TE, etc.

Now, considering the state of the team right now and the talent level, what other team in history (49ers teams or any other NFL team) do you think this team compares favorably with?



Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Originally posted by Rascal:
But, even if we keep Tomsula & Co you can't honestly guarantee me we will be picking top 5 in 2017. I wish it was that simple. Is just too much of a gamble. We aren't even picking No. 5 now with Kap on IR, Vernon traded, Anquan and Carlos injured.

Kaep is on IR, but Gabbert has played just as well so we lost nothing there, Davis won't be on the roster in 2017, Boldin is 36, and there are injuries every year. We've looked like the worst team in the league this year and probably should have 2 wins at this point. I'm hoping for (and expect) us to finish the season with a top 5 pick. No one can say for sure we'll have a top 5 pick next year, but we'll be among the favorites for a top 5 pick even if we replace this coaching staff and bring in a few free agents.

I'd rather pick Goff than gamble and hope we have a top 5 pick again, but we could have several high picks over the next few years and don't have to get the highest ranked QB in a class (look at Derek Carr). If we think Tunsil can be the next Tyron Smith or Nkemdiche can be Wilkerson, that's hard to pass up.

I am so hoping for Gabbert to continue to do well. One more win, preferably an upset, will do it for me. With that top pick, I am looking for us to gain something that we don't already have. If Gabbert continues to perform well, I can't understand taking a QB given all of the other weaknesses this team has. We have guys that are legitimately among the worse at their respective positions. We are set to finish with the lowest pass rushing total in over 15 years. We have a true deep threat, finally, that we can't attempt to get the ball to multiple times a game because we can't give our QB enough time in the pocket. There are a lot of issues that effect this team overall starting with the trenches. Had Blaine Gabbert come in and looked like Jacksonville's Blaine Gabbert, then the pick is Jared Goff, no question. But if he performs well, why draft a QB with our first pick, given that QB isn't our first, second, or even third biggest position of need. To top it off, if we keep going at this rate, QB will not be the BPA. If we end up picking anywhere from 1- 5, DL, OL, or LB has to be the move.
  • Rascal
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Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'll be honest with you. NO ONE said it was too much in the aftermath of the 2012 season. It only was too much when it happened and then when RG3 crashed and burned. A franchise QB is just that, a franchise QB. To trade for one, it will essentially cost a franchise. No one can look into a crystal ball and predict how a player is going to turn out, but it's one of those things that if you work, you went all in and won, if it doesn't work out, you're an idiot.

I said I would do it, provided the roster is stacked and it is only a QB that is holding us back. It also has to be one of those, this type of player ain't gonna be available for the next ____ years. Randy Moss was that type of player. Peyton Manning is another. Andrew Luck is as well (regardless of the horrible season, I'd still take him). John Elway was that type. There are certain guys who put your team in a different stratosphere. If that player happens to play QB and was ready to be a day one starter (no projects with high ceilings), I'd make the trade. A little insight into this idea is Bill Walsh's thinking headed into the 1985 draft. Granted, that was a Super Bowl team, but I am talking about the philosophy of adding the player that takes your offense/team to another level as opposed to drafting lots of good players. The Cowboys in my opinion are an example of a team that could get away with making that trade. Talent at O-line, talent at receiver, RB, TE, etc.

Now, considering the state of the team right now and the talent level, what other team in history (49ers teams or any other NFL team) do you think this team compares favorably with?




I am so hoping for Gabbert to continue to do well. One more win, preferably an upset, will do it for me. With that top pick, I am looking for us to gain something that we don't already have. If Gabbert continues to perform well, I can't understand taking a QB given all of the other weaknesses this team has. We have guys that are legitimately among the worse at their respective positions. We are set to finish with the lowest pass rushing total in over 15 years. We have a true deep threat, finally, that we can't attempt to get the ball to multiple times a game because we can't give our QB enough time in the pocket. There are a lot of issues that effect this team overall starting with the trenches. Had Blaine Gabbert come in and looked like Jacksonville's Blaine Gabbert, then the pick is Jared Goff, no question. But if he performs well, why draft a QB with our first pick, given that QB isn't our first, second, or even third biggest position of need. To top it off, if we keep going at this rate, QB will not be the BPA. If we end up picking anywhere from 1- 5, DL, OL, or LB has to be the move.

OK, so I take it as you are against the idea of taking/trading up for Watson given our roster is far from loaded.

Well, just as well, cos Jared Goff just had a fantastic game, 542 passing yards and 5 TD, not to mention his own 31 yards of rushing. He came from a 21 point deficit in the first half to win the game.

May be we should go back to focusing on Goff. We will have to lose out to stand a chance though.
  • Kolohe
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I'm not impressed at all in Deshaun Watson, the kid just looks like another college system QB. A couple times today when there was no pressure he took off and ran instead of taking the time to go through his reads. I'm just tired of these Kaepernick 2.0 QB's.
  • Rascal
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Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'm not impressed at all in Deshaun Watson, the kid just looks like another college system QB. A couple times today when there was no pressure he took off and ran instead of taking the time to go through his reads. I'm just tired of these Kaepernick 2.0 QB's.

OK, that's good to hear. I didn't get to see the game as I was watching the Michigan game. Since Goff played so well, we might as well just scrap the idea and go back to focusing on Goff. It was always going to be a long shot to target Watson when is so long away.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'm not impressed at all in Deshaun Watson, the kid just looks like another college system QB. A couple times today when there was no pressure he took off and ran instead of taking the time to go through his reads. I'm just tired of these Kaepernick 2.0 QB's.

I don't have a problem with that in and of itself. There is a difference between a QB that doesn't take the time to make proper reads (which can be coached, remember Steve Young?) verses a QB that cannot make the proper reads. But your apprehension is understandable.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I'm not impressed at all in Deshaun Watson, the kid just looks like another college system QB. A couple times today when there was no pressure he took off and ran instead of taking the time to go through his reads. I'm just tired of these Kaepernick 2.0 QB's.

That is not his game at all. You honestly couldn't be more wrong. He is a pure pocket passer who can make plays with his feet. Not sure how you could criticize a kid who had 393 total yards and 4 TDs yesterday. SCAR played with two very deep safeties for most of the game, so Clemson had to be methodical and in fact punted only twice the whole game. The first time SCAR went to a single high look and brought pressure, Watson immediately identified it and threw a perfect deep ball for a TD. On the next TD, Watson toyed with an oncoming blitzer by pumpfaking in a way that redirected the blitzer, and then Watson ran right around him for a 30 yard score.

Watson's foremost strength is his brain and ability to read defenses. He can slice you up with his legs if you let him, he can throw underneath, or he can beat you with perfect deep passes. The commentator yesterday, former NFLer Ray Bentley, said Watson throws the best deep ball of any QB he has seen at any level with respect to accuracy. He is literally nothing like Kap at all other than having a strong arm in general. Your criticism is really out of left field. Not saying the kid is perfect, but he is known for his ability to orchestrate and dissect.







Seldom Used Reserve ‏@seldomusedrsrv

On passes over 10 yards vs. SC, Deshaun Watson was 5 for 5 for 136 yards and 1 beautiful touchdown.
[ Edited by TheBlueHell on Nov 29, 2015 at 8:58 AM ]
  • Kolohe
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^^^^So what part of that video and reply wasn't like Kap 2.0, looked infield to me??



I never said Watson COULDN'T pass, just like Kap of course he can with plenty of arm strength. BUT, he won't stay in the pocket like a pure pocket passer, and that video just proved my point. That video also showed me and yesterday's game that if his first or second read isn't there, he's off to the races.
lol he won't stay in the pocket? I mean, he took zero sacks yesterday, which I wouldn't say is very Kap like. Kap is an explosive runner, whereas Watson is a glider who picks his spots and almost always picks the right spot. You see that corner route on the smash concept that he hit between three defenders on that video? How about the 50 yard bomb where the receiver was actually covered but he hit him perfectly in stride to the inside shoulder anyway (after diagnosing the blitz and looking off the safety)? I'm actually not a Kap hater like so many on here, but I haven't seen many throws like that from Kap lately.

Kap came out of a pistol offense where he rushed for 1000 yards a season basically. That is nothing like Clemson's offense. Watson hasn't even hit the one year mark on his ACL injury yet, so I can assure you he hasn't been overly eager to tuck and run this year. You're waaaay offbase saying he won't sit in the pocket and make throws. The kid's QB rating actually goes up when people blitz because he is so good at recognition.


[ Edited by TheBlueHell on Nov 29, 2015 at 11:28 AM ]
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