Is the WZ Wide Receiver obsessed for the NFL Draft?

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I think it's time to actually put some stock in WR for the draft. No more projects, Baalke, in my opinion, messed up on waiting until the 4th to grab a WR (again) in last years epic draft class. I think they MUST go WR with one of their 1st two picks!

How exactly did he mess up? Nobody thought Ellington was a bad pick, many considered him to be a steal. Do you really believe that the previous coaching staff would have done much better with an Odell Beckham Jr? I don't. He wouldn't have been half the player he was with the Giants. They simply didn't do a very good job of putting guys in a position to be successful, rather than playing to a guy's individual skills, it seems like they widely treated players as "one size fits all."


Until you finally let these guys play and have a system that plays to their strengths, then it won't matter who the hell you draft. All the people who think that drafting some monster receiver would be a salve for all offensive struggles I think would be incredibly disappointed. Forget the drafting, this team hasn't shown the aptitude to properly coach wide receivers in a long time. Pittsburgh took a guy in the 6th round in 2010 who was the best wide receiver in football last year. They've proven time and time again that they can scout receivers but also that they can coach guys up to extract their maximum potential. They have a system in place, they know what they need, they go out and get it, they know that they can coach these guys up, it all works together seamlessly.


If you want to look at the difference between the 49ers, the Packers, the Patriots, the Steelers....etc. A big part of why those teams have success is established and effective coaching of their wide receivers. Even in Seattle they find ways to utilize a bunch of scrubs to the best possible effect. Until that changes, until the 49ers are consistently able to coach up young WR's AND call offense that plays into guys individual strengths, its never going to be much better, I don't care much who you draft. Spend a 1st rounder or a 7th rounder, you're still inevitably going to end up disappointed as the guy will never reach his full potential. Hopefully things are changing for the better with Curry and Henry as the WR coaches but only time will tell on that.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

The way this team is built it's best to be strong in the trenches on both sides and have a good running game. We won't win throwing 40 - 50 times a game anyway. That is not who we are. We are not built like that. We pretty consistently lose when we try to do that. Run, play defense and throw about 20 - 25 times a game is how this team is built.

The team could use some WR speed outside, sure.. but the main reason to draft a WR early this time around is for THE FUTURE.

We know Boldin and SJ won't be around much longer. So unless you are convinced that Ellington and Patton are quality starters? SF should draft a WR early that can develop and boost their chances of rolling into 2016 with a quality bunch.

Drafting a rd 1-2 wideout doesn't eliminate our success of running the ball, playing defense, etc.

All we really need on offense aside from WR is a good QB2... improved depth at OT on day 2/3.. and maybe a RB on day 3.
That still allows us to burn early picks on WR, DE, and CB.

Exactly!

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I think it's time to actually put some stock in WR for the draft. No more projects, Baalke, in my opinion, messed up on waiting until the 4th to grab a WR (again) in last years epic draft class. I think they MUST go WR with one of their 1st two picks!

How exactly did he mess up? Nobody thought Ellington was a bad pick, many considered him to be a steal. Do you really believe that the previous coaching staff would have done much better with an Odell Beckham Jr? I don't. He wouldn't have been half the player he was with the Giants. They simply didn't do a very good job of putting guys in a position to be successful, rather than playing to a guy's individual skills, it seems like they widely treated players as "one size fits all."


Until you finally let these guys play and have a system that plays to their strengths, then it won't matter who the hell you draft. All the people who think that drafting some monster receiver would be a salve for all offensive struggles I think would be incredibly disappointed. Forget the drafting, this team hasn't shown the aptitude to properly coach wide receivers in a long time.


If you want to look at the difference between the 49ers, the Packers, the Patriots, the Steelers....etc. A big part of why those teams have success is established and effective coaching of their wide receivers. Even in Seattle they find ways to utilize a bunch of scrubs to the best possible effect. Until that changes, until the 49ers are consistently able to coach up young WR's AND call offense that plays into guys individual strengths, its never going to be much better, I don't care much who you draft.

I think he messed up in the fact that he could have drafted a better WR in the earlier rounds. Your right in that we don't know what Ellington brings to the table, but I don't see him as a #1 WR but a good piece. he could have drafted a future #1 and we wouldn't have to worry about going WR in the 1st or 2nd this year...I do like the new WR coach that they brought in and I agree the offensive struggles start with the coaching staff.

I think OBJ would have been great in SF though.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I think he messed up in the fact that he could have drafted a better WR in the earlier rounds. Your right in that we don't know what Ellington brings to the table, but I don't see him as a #1 WR but a good piece. he could have drafted a future #1 and we wouldn't have to worry about going WR in the 1st or 2nd this year...I do like the new WR coach that they brought in and I agree the offensive struggles start with the coaching staff.

I think OBJ would have been great in SF though.

How do you know that a guy is "better" when we don't even know what Ellington can do? "Better" where? Playing in an offense that actually utilizes them properly, with better coaching? Which receiver do you think that was picked earlier would have come to the 49ers and been JUST AS successful as he was on his current team? By the same token if you had put Ellington in Philadelphia, Seattle, Green Bay or Indy, do you think its impossible for him to have been far more successful considering that those teams would have actually played him. Why did it take until the San Diego game for them to realize that Ellington could actually be utilized as a nice weapon in the redzone?


The guy tore it up in the preseason and they basically relegated him to being a full-time returner which he did sparingly at South Carolina and b***h duty as a receiver behind a whole bunch of veterans. What reason do you have to think any rookie would have come in last season and torn it up considering how awfully little Ellington was used in the first place?


The combined snaps that the 49ers are losing with Crabtree and Lloyd should largely go to Johnson, Patton and Ellington this season, let's see what all these guys can do and whether or not they are big parts of this team's future .

Y'all remember T.O. was a third round pick, right? The first rounder that year was none other than JJ Stokes. Furthermore, Jerry Rice is the only successful receiver the 9ers picked in the first round (starting with the Walsh era). John taylor--3rd round, Dwight Clark 123343349 round etc.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I think he messed up in the fact that he could have drafted a better WR in the earlier rounds. Your right in that we don't know what Ellington brings to the table, but I don't see him as a #1 WR but a good piece. he could have drafted a future #1 and we wouldn't have to worry about going WR in the 1st or 2nd this year...I do like the new WR coach that they brought in and I agree the offensive struggles start with the coaching staff.

I think OBJ would have been great in SF though.

How do you know that a guy is "better" when we don't even know what Ellington can do? "Better" where? Playing in an offense that actually utilizes them properly, with better coaching? Which receiver do you think that was picked earlier would have come to the 49ers and been JUST AS successful as he was on his current team? By the same token if you had put Ellington in Philadelphia, Seattle, Green Bay or Indy, do you think its impossible for him to have been far more successful considering that those teams would have actually played him. Why did it take until the San Diego game for them to realize that Ellington could actually be utilized as a nice weapon in the redzone?


The guy tore it up in the preseason and they basically relegated him to being a full-time returner which he did sparingly at South Carolina and b***h duty as a receiver behind a whole bunch of veterans. What reason do you have to think any rookie would have come in last season and torn it up considering how awfully little Ellington was used in the first place?


The combined snaps that the 49ers are losing with Crabtree and Lloyd should largely go to Johnson, Patton and Ellington this season, let's see what all these guys can do and whether or not they are big parts of this team's future .

Yes Patton who couldn't even beat out a old Lloyd who wasn't even in the league last year. He wasn't even active most of the season and when he was he fumbled the ball in SD....maybe just maybe Patton just isn't that great he had all off season, training camp, and weekly practices to prove he should be playing over Lloyd.

We don't know if SJ is going to take a pay cut either. We do know we will most likely be losing Crabs, who like it or not was our #1. I don't feel confident with Boldin and SJ as our starting WRs at all. Players like KB, OBJ, Matthews, Evans, Moncrief would have at the very least been more productive then Ellington based on the fact that they could have taken snaps from Lloyd.

I do agree that our coaching staff didn't use Ellington properly and he deserves more snaps. I would rather cut SJ, draft a WR in the 1st, and give Ellington more snaps.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Yes Patton who couldn't even beat out a old Lloyd who wasn't even in the league last year. He wasn't even active most of the season and when he was he fumbled the ball in SD....maybe just maybe Patton just isn't that great he had all off season, training camp, and weekly practices to prove he should be playing over Lloyd.

We don't know if SJ is going to take a pay cut either. We do know we will most likely be losing Crabs, who like it or not was our #1. I don't feel confident with Boldin and SJ as our starting WRs at all. Players like KB, OBJ, Matthews, Evans, Moncrief would have at the very least been more productive then Ellington based on the fact that they could have taken snaps from Lloyd.

I do agree that our coaching staff didn't use Ellington properly and he deserves more snaps. I would rather cut SJ, draft a WR in the 1st, and give Ellington more snaps.

Neither Patton nor Ellington had a real chance over Lloyd IMO. As soon as he was put on the roster, I didn't see him being the #6th WR, which meant Patton was the guy left out, who never received chances during actual game situations to prove himself. Same goes for Ellington who had a marginal amount of snaps and was used mostly as a returner.


Lloyd was actually the least efficient receiver on the roster and he still got many more snaps than Stevie Johnson who was significantly more efficient, so to say that snaps were based on production is blatantly erroneous.


So no, I don't buy your premise at all that someone would have come in and snatched snaps away from Lloyd. They were determined to play the veterans, simple as that, it wasn't until late in the season when it was clear that the playoffs weren't in the cards that Lloyd got the hook, something that should have happened a lot sooner. Whether it was Ellington, Moncrief, Matthews or Beckham, I think the results would largely have been the same, you would have seen these young guys struggling for snaps with the majority going to a 35 year old wide receiver who had already been out of football for a year.




Until there is an appropriate system in place, until the coaching staff is prepared to lets guy play, to learn, make mistakes but to develop as players, it won't matter who you draft because the system is a mess.

Teams like Seattle will try and force you to become one dimensional. They stack the box in an attempt to shut down the run game and keep Kaep from scrambling, so we need receivers who can consistently win their "one on one" match-ups. Once the passing game gains some momentum this will open up some lanes for our RBs and Kaep to get some yards through the ground.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Neither Patton nor Ellington had a real chance over Lloyd IMO. As soon as he was put on the roster, I didn't see him being the #6th WR, which meant Patton was the guy left out, who never received chances during actual game situations to prove himself. Same goes for Ellington who had a marginal amount of snaps and was used mostly as a returner.


Lloyd was actually the least efficient receiver on the roster and he still got many more snaps than Stevie Johnson who was significantly more efficient, so to say that snaps were based on production is blatantly erroneous.


So no, I don't buy your premise at all that someone would have come in and snatched snaps away from Lloyd. They were determined to play the veterans, simple as that, it wasn't until late in the season when it was clear that the playoffs weren't in the cards that Lloyd got the hook, something that should have happened a lot sooner. Whether it was Ellington, Moncrief, Matthews or Beckham, I think the results would largely have been the same, you would have seen these young guys struggling for snaps with the majority going to a 35 year old wide receiver who had already been out of football for a year.




Until there is an appropriate system in place, until the coaching staff is prepared to lets guy play, to learn, make mistakes but to develop as players, it won't matter who you draft because the system is a mess.

Well I guess I see it as a competition for roster spots and supposedly the best man won. I do think talent wins out and some of the players I mentioned would not be sitting behind Lloyd or SJ. I think investing a 1st RD pick would almost force the staff to play whomever they pick. We have seen in the past couple drafts that our 1st rd picks have become starters...minus AJ who fell on his face.

In my eyes, I feel this position has lacked for a while and I'm fine with investing high in it. There are some good building blocks (Ellington and possibly Patton), but we still need that outside threat that teams actually have to game plan for...currently we don't have that.

Hopefully our new staff actually puts their players in the right spot to succeed.

Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:
Teams like Seattle will try and force you to become one dimensional. They stack the box in an attempt to shut down the run game and keep Kaep from scrambling, so we need receivers who can consistently win their "one on one" match-ups. Once the passing game gains some momentum this will open up some lanes for our RBs and Kaep to get some yards through the ground.

I think scheme has far more to do with that than anything else. Unless you think that Julian Edelman, Danny Amendola and Brandon LaFell are all beastly receivers. The Patriots used the right scheme to attack them with and had enough personnel at WR and RB to be able to mix it up and to sit back and just pick that defense apart by dinking and dunking down the football field.

Go look the last time Calvin Johnson played versus Seattle and tell me what his numbers were. Or look at Denver last year, was their problem a lack of WR talent?


The real dimension that the 49ers are missing is a vertical threat.

I would classify it as "Justifiable Obsession."

Like it or not we are in a passing league and it is a VERY necessary weapon which we really don't have.

We have proven that we CAN'T win the Super Bowl with a pound and ground attack.

We MUST have both.

If we can get a very fast WR who isn't a Hobbit that can be a viable threat going long; other teams will load the box and stop our running attack.

I will hold off until after FA & Justin Smith decision to determine who we should pick in first round.
Right now I would say our needs are:
1.WR- We do not have a true #1 and its not all on Roman- Boldin & Johnson are #2's, Ellington & Patton I can't see as #1s. Crabs will walk
2.DL- I would consider if Smith retires- Still have Dorsey, Williams, Carradine, Dial
3.O line could use some help but I think that could be filled in later rounds.
4.CB could use help but I think this is better filled resigning Culliver or Cox and pick up a FA corner. Culliver/Cox , Brock, Ward, Reid, Bethea
5.OLB may need to be addressed if we move on from Brooks this year and Aldon's off field issues he cant be fully trusted
6.TE can be upgrade but I don't see one at pick 15
7.RB Hyde & Hunter- could resign Gore or pick up FA like DeAngelo or Matthews ( also could draft in later rounds)
8.ILB we have Willis, Bowman, Borland - solid group

I see both sides of the story, we have a lot of depth coming into the o-line with a guy like Thomas coming off the IR and Martin being in his second year, a lot will depend on free agency, the defensive line has Tank and Dial but could use some depth for sure. Our offense should be geared towards the tools we have, we do need a speed receiver but not a little one, a tall one. Kap throws the ball down the field at a high rate, regardless of who the option is, it's his strength, he's a dual home run threat but he's not exactly a magician underneath. So to put this offense into another gear, they need to bring in a guy that has size and speed that will be able to get past coverage for the down the field throws, but also someone who can get up and contest at the point to win the ball when coverage is good. I REALLY like a guy like Strong but also feel like it'd be a reach to get him at 15, if White somehow falls to us you take him no doubt, but if not I could see them going d-line or db, really the key will be free agency, Frank Gore/Justin Smith/Mike Iupati/Chris Culliver/ where do these guys end up, because sure a big fast strong threat at receiver is a need, but it won't be the number one need if those guys listed leave town lol.

Well we learned that last year Baalke did covet Beckham and we would have drafted him if he came within range of the 49ers, but the asking price to move up last year was to much, so we didn't.

Also, Ballke's forte seems to be in drafting defense. Offense not so much, in particular wr. However, I remember it being written that Bill Walsh saying that with Defense, you have to draft talented people to make it work. On offense you can get away with it by using good schemes. We didn't have a burner at wr. Even Freddie Solomon was not all that fast.

Using Brady or Peyton, etc, as an example about making avg wr look good those QBs are rare to find. Our scheme is running the ball, but I do agree that having a wr that can stretch the field is a must, but we can't just have a burner to stretch the field (we got Ellington for that but he has been injured-yes he is not a 4.35 kind of guy and more quick and as old as Lloyd was he did do a good job of stretching the field.), we need a big receiver that can play all downs and do that fade and jump ball.

Kevin White would have been ideal, but his combine just made him out of our reach as we know that Baalke's m.o., doesn't operate on the mortgaging the future for one guy view.

Sorry, I have digressed from the OP's original question, yes we are wr obsessed, everyone likes the splash and even if it is satisfied this year, in one or two years, the same will be occur again-count on it.

You know yes the zone is, but surprisingly so are many other teams. With us some of us downplay what we have on offense, when our WR core is better than it had been in years. I mean with our top WR's we don't have any Rashaun Woods of the group. We have Johnson, proven receiver, Boldin, his work speaks for itself, Crabs, who's a solid WR, and even one of the best TE's in the game with Vernon.

Had we stuck with the formula of run first, then let the passing game flow off of that. We had more than we needed and then some. We could get a burner, but no 1, at what price, and no 2, is that really our offense. When Harbs was coach we were successful with less. So now that we have proven WR's we can't make it work. I'll say if we pick up a F/A Wr (not too expensive), and maybe one or two in maybe the 3rd thru 5th round, we should be ok. Crabs may not be back, but I laugh because what if he is.

Overall, since Toms, and company said that we are going back to our bread and butter and follow that up with the pass, then the future is bright as hell for us. If we try to turn into a passing first team, it's just not gonna work. Member in the past when they say if it isn't broke don't fix it. Well the run game is most of our offense, regardless if many want to believe it or not. Our 49er way formula is, run heavy, killer defense, and QB who can get it done when needed. We have the pieces IMHO, we just gotta go back to what was working.