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MadDog49er Best Player Available Top 100 Board Tuesday May 6

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
No offense but I think its pretty crazy that you downgrade Bridgewater because of a 20 wonderlic as opposed to his awful pro day. 20 isnt great but it certainly isnt stupid level and I think its overrated anyway. Dan Marino and Jim Kelly scored a 15 and they seemed to do enough to get into the Hall of Fame.

I think the bigger isssue with Bridgewater is without question the Pro Day. He was nervous and erratic and the lack of arm strength really showed. It is this, and not some wonderlic, that will likely push him into round 2.

A Wonderlic score of 20 is below the average for the top level QB's, and while it is not an end-all, it is one piece of the puzzle. There are some guys who did not fare well but still achieved greatness in the NFL, but most in the modern era scored at least in the mid-20s or higher.

Once again, when you look at Bridgewater's red flags (maintaining weight, poor Pro Day, low Wonderlic), at a certain point you have to begin downgrading him, as I did.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
No offense but I think its pretty crazy that you downgrade Bridgewater because of a 20 wonderlic as opposed to his awful pro day. 20 isnt great but it certainly isnt stupid level and I think its overrated anyway. Dan Marino and Jim Kelly scored a 15 and they seemed to do enough to get into the Hall of Fame.

I think the bigger isssue with Bridgewater is without question the Pro Day. He was nervous and erratic and the lack of arm strength really showed. It is this, and not some wonderlic, that will likely push him into round 2.

A Wonderlic score of 20 is below the average for the top level QB's, and while it is not an end-all, it is one piece of the puzzle. There are some guys who did not fare well but still achieved greatness in the NFL, but most in the modern era scored at least in the mid-20s or higher.

Once again, when you look at Bridgewater's red flags (maintaining weight, poor Pro Day, low Wonderlic), at a certain point you have to begin downgrading him, as I did.

No one would be downgrading Bridgewater if he had performed great on his Pro Day. In fact, his wonderlic would have been completely ignored. I just thought it was pretty hillarious that you thought this was a much bigger reason for downgrading him than the Pro Day performance.
[ Edited by Ninerjohn on May 7, 2014 at 10:53 PM ]
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
No one would be downgrading Bridgewater if he had performed great on his Pro Day. In fact, his wonderlic would have been completely ignored. I just thought it was pretty hillarious that you thought this was a much bigger reason for downgrading him than the Pro Day performance.


I can find a better excuse for him having an off Pro-Day (throwing without a glove), than not showing aptitude on an intelligence test. I can see the opposite perspective, but I think the technicalities and sophistication of modern NFL defenses will hamper most, if not all, incoming NFL QBs who don't have average of above average scores in this measurable.

Here is a quote from SI this past month about QBs and Wonderlic scores:
Among the 31 projected 2014 starting quarterbacks who have a reported Wonderlic score, the average is 29.4, according to ESPN.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on May 8, 2014 at 7:34 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Benjamin's not the fastest WR, but he did play for a quality program and had success. He's got good size, excellent wingspan and hands, moderate speed, and the ability to use his body and wingspan to win matchups against DBs and LBs.

His weaknesses in cutting and changing direction appear to be flaws that could be corrected through the right coaching.

I can understand why he might not be rated as a top ten pick, but most have him ranked as a late first rounder. Personally, I would consider him in the late second, early third, if he's still available.

So, how much of your harsh, 5th round ranking is influenced by what appears to be interest by the Niner's?

You setting this up so you can be--surprise, surprise--hyper-critical of Baalke if the Niners take this guy even in the second or third rounds?

Whatever team picks him will receive my scorn. I don't see the team looking at him. Nothing more than a plodding WR who runs sloppy routes, which you can get away with in college, but not in the NFL.

You've got every right to your opinion(s), no dispute there. But "plodding"???? He's not a blazingly fast WR, but the tape I've seen shows a smooth, athletic WR with moderate speed and great size.

Your criticisms of some players seem valid, to me, based on fact. Even a slight downgrade of Benjamin might be understandable.

But a "plodding WR" only worthy of a 5th round pick????

Did he kick your dog or something?
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
No one would be downgrading Bridgewater if he had performed great on his Pro Day. In fact, his wonderlic would have been completely ignored. I just thought it was pretty hillarious that you thought this was a much bigger reason for downgrading him than the Pro Day performance.


I can find a better excuse for him having an off Pro-Day (throwing without a glove), than not showing aptitude on an intelligence test. I can see the opposite perspective, but I think the technicalities and sophistication of modern NFL defenses will hamper most, if not all, incoming NFL QBs who don't have average of above average scores in this measurable.

Here is a quote from SI this past month about QBs and Wonderlic scores:
Among the 31 projected 2014 starting quarterbacks who have a reported Wonderlic score, the average is 29.4, according to ESPN.

Russel Wilson 28 Big Ben 25 RG3 24 Cam Newton 21 Blaine Gabbert 42

I think thats enough evidence right there. LOL
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Russel Wilson 28 Big Ben 25 RG3 24 Cam Newton 21 Blaine Gabbert 42

I think thats enough evidence right there. LOL


Gabbert is not a starter, so he is not part of the equation. Of the starters, the average is 29.4. What does that mean? It means that the average QB scored substantially higher than Bridgewater.


Updated: 6:32 p.m. Wednesday, March 10, 2010 | Posted: 4:01 p.m. Wednesday, March 10, 2010


Wonderlic scores of 2010 NFL starting quarterbacks and NFL draft QB prospects 7 20 3 8120


By Edgar Thompson

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

An NFL source told the Post Wednesday that former Florida Gators quarterback Tim Tebow scored a 22 out of 50 on the Wonderlic test, a 12-minute, 50-question exam given at the NFL Combine that assesses a person's learning and problem-solving abilities.

The score falls slightly below the average score for an NFL quarterback, which is 24.

Catch this set of scores from 4 years ago:

"The average for 30 quarterbacks slated to start in 2010 is even higher, at 28.5. And the average score among the past seven Super Bowl winners is a 30.1.
Wonderlic scores for the NFL's projected starting quarterbacks in 2010:

1. Ryan Fitzpatrick 48

2. Alex Smith 40

3. Eli Manning 39

4. Matt Stafford 38

5. Tony Romo 37

6. Aaron Rodgers 35

6. Matt Leinart 35

8. Tom Brady 33

9. Matt Ryan 32

10. Matt Schaub 31

11. Philip Rivers 30

12. Matt Hasselbeck 29

12. Marc Bulger 29

12. Brady Quinn 29

15. Mark Sanchez 28

15. Peyton Manning 28

15. Drew Brees 28

18. Josh Freeman 27

18. Joe Flacco 27

20. Carson Palmer 26

20. Jay Cutler 26

20. Kyle Orton 26

23. Ben Roethlisberger 25

24. Jason Campbell 23

25. Brett Favre 22

25. Tim Tebow 22

25. Chad Henne 22

28. Bruce Gradkowski 19

29. Vince Young 15

30. Donovan McNabb 14

30. David Garrard 14"



What can we learn from this set of stats? Few starting QBs scored 20 or less, and the vast majority of the best QBs scored substantially higher. Sure, you throw out a few of the exceptions on each end. The exceptions are the exceptions. The norm is the norm.

Take the top 4 QBs in the NFL today from this list:
Rodgers-35
Brady- 33
Manning-28
Brees-28
[ Edited by MadDog49er on May 8, 2014 at 12:25 PM ]
  • buck
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Memorable Wonderlic Scores

Colin Kaepernick---37

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1103/nfl-memorable-wonderlic-scores/content.9.html


or maybe he had a 38


https://qbscores.wordpress.com/2012/02/03/top-ten-nfl-qb-wonderlic-scores-2011/Kaepernick Wonderlic Score 38 cores/content.9.html
SO Maddog.. you throw out Gabbert's 42 wonderlic but show me 2010 starters? LOL Gabbert WAS a starter in this league and your draft love failed miserably despite his awesome wonderlic score.

Ryan Fitzpatrick 48 Peyton Manning 20 pts lower at 28. Donovan McNabb 15 That alone tells me the wonderlic is WAY overrated.

Like I said.. there is only ONE reason that Bridgewater is dropping and it isnt a 20 Wonderlic score. Its an awful pro day where he showed erratic throws on the biggest stage.
Wow...by my count, that is 7 players the Niners drafted in the top 99 players on this list.... Not a bad weekend for Baalke and Co. Gotta wonder if they troll the posts by MD and OTC...

Cheers!
[ Edited by nw9erfan on May 17, 2014 at 10:32 PM ]
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  • Veteran
  • Posts: 28,515
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
SO Maddog.. you throw out Gabbert's 42 wonderlic but show me 2010 starters? LOL Gabbert WAS a starter in this league and your draft love failed miserably despite his awesome wonderlic score.

Ryan Fitzpatrick 48 Peyton Manning 20 pts lower at 28. Donovan McNabb 15 That alone tells me the wonderlic is WAY overrated.

Like I said.. there is only ONE reason that Bridgewater is dropping and it isnt a 20 Wonderlic score. Its an awful pro day where he showed erratic throws on the biggest stage.

For a QB who's biggest attribute is allegedly being more "pro ready" than the other QBs because of his mind... Scoring below the average wonderlic is a pretty big knock against the dude
[ Edited by Garcia on May 11, 2014 at 12:49 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Here is a quote from SI this past month about QBs and Wonderlic scores:
Among the 31 projected 2014 starting quarterbacks who have a reported Wonderlic score, the average is 29.4, according to ESPN.
Correlation != Causation

People with bigger feet are smarter.
Kids tend to have small feet.
[ Edited by zugschef on May 11, 2014 at 9:02 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Less than 48 hours outside the draft, I am posting my best player available board, with what I perceive are the top 100 graded players going into the draft.

This is not a draft projection, which is my Big 256 board, nor a 49ers board, which would exclude many of these players due to team needs, positions already anchored, or scheme. I will post both of these boardw in the next couple of days.

Couple notes: As stated for some time now, I do not see Clowney as a top 10 graded player entering the draft. Although he has top-level talent, I see holes in his game that push him down the board for me. Could he emerge as the star of this draft? Easily, if he puts the time and energy into it. I just don't see the passion to commit to being elite, so I remain a skeptic.

In addition to swimming against the stream regarding Clowney, I also have Jimmy Garappolo as my top graded QB entering the draft, although he is pushed substantially down the board. My belief in Bridgewater has slipped, mostly due to his Wonderlic score of 20, more than one erratic workout. Add his struggle to maintain weight, I see a number of red flags that push him down.

I do grade Dennard much lower than most, and Gaines much higher.

In the end, I believe the Niners, if they stay at number 30, will select from this list of players: Cody Latimer, Jason Verrett, Joel Bitonio, Allen Robinson, Jordan Matthews,

Cheers,

2014 NFL Draft Best Board
Pick Player School Position
1 Khalil Mack Buffalo DE/OLB
2 Greg Robinson Auburn OT
3 Sammy Watkins Clemson WR
4 Mike Evans Texas A&M WR
5 Aaron Donald Pittsburgh DT
6 Odell Beckham LSU WR
7 Zack Martin Notre Dame OT/G
8 Ryan Shazier Ohio State LB
9 Carlos Hyde Ohio State RB (picked at number 57)
10 Jake Matthews Texas A&M OT
11 Anthony Barr UCLA LB
12 Brandin Cooks Oregon St WR
13 Jadeveon Clowney South Carolina DE
14 Kyle Fuller Virginia Tech CB
15 Justin Gilbert Oklahoma State CB
16 Taylor Lewan Michigan OT
17 Joel Bitonio Nevada OT/G/C
18 Jason Verrett TCU CB
19 Hasean Clinton-Dix Alabama S
20 Calvin Pryor Louisville S
21 Dee Ford Auburn LB
22 Jimmie Ward Northern Illinois S (picked at number 30)
23 Jeremiah Attaochu Georgia Tech LB
24 Allen Robinson Penn State WR
25 Xavier Su'a-Filo UCLA G
26 Weston Richburg Colorado St C
27 Eric Ebron North Carolina TE
28 Deone Buchanon Washington St S
30 Jimmy Garappolo Eastern Illinois QB
31 Cody Latimer Indiana WR
32 CJ Mosley Alabama OLB
33 Marcus Smith Louisville LB
34 Marcus Martin USC C (picked at number 70)
35 Terrence Brooks Florida State S
36 Jace Amaro Texas Tech TE
37 Phillip Gaines Rice CB
38 Darqueze Dennard Michigan St CB
39 Dominique Easley Florida DT
40 Jeremy Hill LSU RB
41 Ja'Wuan James Tennessee OT
42 Morgan Moses Virginia OT
43 Jordan Matthews Vanderbilt WR
44 Blake Bortles Central Florida QB
45 Marqise Lee USC WR
46 Jarvis Landry LSU WR
47 Devanta Freeman Florida State RB
48 Teddy Bridgewater Louisville QB
49 Bishop Sankey Washington RB
50 Bradley Roby Ohio State CB
51 Timmy Jernigan Florida State DT
52 Brandon Thomas Clemson OT/G (picked at number 100)
53 Scott Crichton Oregon St DE
54 Kyle Van Noy BYU LB
55 Donte Moncrief Arkansas WR
56 Derek Carr Fresno State QB
57 Troy Niklas Notre Dame TE
58 Telvin Smith Florida State SS/OLB
59 Davante Adams Fresno State WR
60 Martavis Bryant Clemson WR
61 Gabe Jackson Mississippi St G
62 Jordan Tripp Montana LB
63 Jared Abbrederis Wisconsin WR
64 Stephon Tuitt Notre Dame DT
65 Louis Nix Notre Dame DT
66 Austin Seferian-Jenkins Washington TE
67 Pierre Desir Lindenwood CB
68 Lamarcus Joyner Florida State CB
69 Terrance West Towson RB
70 Kony Ealy Missouri DE/OLB
71 Stanley Jean-Baptiste Nebraska CB
72 Paul Richardson Colorado WR
73 Jack Mewhort Ohio State OT
74 Demarcus Lawrence Boise St DE/OLB
75 Zach Mettenberger LSU QB
76 Ra'Shede Hageman Minnesota DT
77 Keith McGill Utah CB
78 Robert Herron Wyoming WR
79 Dri Archer Kent St WR
80 CJ Fiedorowicz Iowa TE
81 Carl Bradford Arizona St DE/OLB
82 Johnny Manziel Texas A&M QB
83 Rashaad Reynolds Oregon St S
84 Storm Johnson Central Florida RB
85 Bashaud Breeland Clemson CB
86 Chris Borland Wisconsin LB (picked at number 77)
87 Kareem Martin North Carolina DE
88 DaQuan Jones Penn State DT
89 Jaylen Watkins Florida CB
90 Kevin Norwood Alabama WR
91 Jordan Zumwalt UCLA LB
92 Dontae Johnson North Carolina St CB/S (picked at number 129)
93 Charles Sims West Virginia RB
94 Will Clarke West Virginia DE
95 Chris Smith Arkansas DE/OLB
96 Tom Savage Pittsburgh QB
97 Dakota Dozier Furman G
98 Tre Mason Auburn RB
99 Bruce Ellington South Carolina WR (picked at number 106)
100 Christian Kirksey Iowa LB

My goodness! Seven picks in the top 100 of MD's list...and 4 in the top 52...impressive! Ya think the Niners got good talent and good value with their picks? (No need to answer.... )


MD...I noticed you had Robert Herron of Wyoming rated ahead of Bruce Ellington, both being slot receivers. What attributes in Herron did you see to rate him so highly? (relatively)

Cheers!
Sorry, double post, moderator...
[ Edited by nw9erfan on May 17, 2014 at 10:33 PM ]
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
As for Kelvin Benjamin, did you watch his film?

The vague, speculative stuff about his work ethic I can almost understand. But to question his movement skills? He ran a 4.61 at 240 pounds, and his 20-yard shuttle was only .13 seconds off the time posted by Mike Evans. He also consistently ran by and around Louchiez Purifoy and a few other talented Florida DBs, not to mention everyone else who tried to cover him this past year (Bashaud Breeland included).

Curious as to where you're seeing such a lack of movement skills that it would render him a backup TE.

LOL, all those DB's you listed ran poorly as well (Purifoy 4.61, Roberson 4.61, Breeland 4.62)

BTW, VD ran 4.38 at 250 lbs. P Willy ran 4.5 at 250 lbs. Clowney runs 4.5 at 265 lbs. Dontari Poe ran 4.9 at 340 lbs. Bruce Irvin ran 4.4 at 245 lbs.

Running 4.61 at 240 is nothing special imo. To be honest, when I watch game tape of him, he looks like a 4.8 guy. Runs like he is in slow motion. I predict he will be a bust but he is in a good situation at Carolina. He will be given every opportunity to succeed there. We shall see
[ Edited by kronik on May 18, 2014 at 12:44 AM ]