Ghost mocking V 1.0 - pre-combine

Jason Verrett at 5"9", 175 is another nickel corner that will likely be picked in the 1st as well. The game is changing.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Yes, 2 inches changes everything, especially for a guy who's as outstandingly athletic as Joyner is. Mathieu looked crap-tastic at 5'9" as well.


The reality is if your only reason for disliking Joyner is his height, then you have no good reason at all. Talent is talent, if you can get a guy who is that versatile, instinctive, with an incredible nose for the football and and a true love for the game, what more do you want?

Yes, and Mathieu was drafted in the 3rd. And you want to draft Joyner with a first???

Originally posted by kronik:
Yes, and Mathieu was drafted in the 3rd. And you want to draft Joyner with a first???

The reason for that were his off the field issues.

Come on kronik. You know Mathieu lasted until the 3rd because he missed his entire junior season. He's easily a first rounder if he hadn't got kicked off the team and didn't play in 2012.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Come on kronik. You know Mathieu lasted until the 3rd because he missed his entire junior season. He's easily a first rounder if he hadn't got kicked off the team and didn't play in 2012.

I'm just saying great slots or nickel corners can be found throughout the draft easily imo. No need to use a first round pick. Don't get me wrong, I do like Joyner as a slot cb. But it doesn't mean he's worth a first. There are a ton of great players in the draft, possibly the deepest. Maybe in a down year, Joyner could be a first. But not this year imo.

Originally posted by kronik:
I'm just saying great slots or nickel corners can be found throughout the draft easily imo. No need to use a first round pick. Don't get me wrong, I do like Joyner as a slot cb. Just not first round material to me. To me, it's odd and super-rare to use a first on a nickel. How many times has it happened during the past 20 years plus?

Things change? Nothing in football remains static. Knowing what they know now, you don't think a team would drop a first round on a 5'11" QB like Russell Wilson?


The reality is that your only issue with Joyner is his height, if that's the case, you have no issue at all. That is how teams lose out on highly talented players and end up with busts.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Things change? Nothing in football remains static. Knowing what they know now, you don't think a team would drop a first round on a 5'11" QB like Russell Wilson?


The reality is that your only issue with Joyner is his height, if that's the case, you have no issue at all. That is how teams lose out on highly talented players and end up with busts.

Little bit. I think my main issue is using a first on players that have physical disadvantages. I don't care how great they look in college. To think of him possibly matching up against a 6-6 265 lb tight end with long arms scares me. These huge receivers/tight ends are becoming the norm in the NFL and that's what's scary. He would be great as a slot corner imo. And since I view him as a great slot cornerback prospect, that doesn't mean he's a first round grade though. I just don't see NFL GM's drafting slot cornerbacks with first round picks. Have you?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Things change? Nothing in football remains static. Knowing what they know now, you don't think a team would drop a first round on a 5'11" QB like Russell Wilson?


The reality is that your only issue with Joyner is his height, if that's the case, you have no issue at all. That is how teams lose out on highly talented players and end up with busts.

Huh? Are you saying Joyner is the only good safety in the draft? I much rather grab a Jimmy Ward in the later rounds over him. Sorry if we don't agree in "value"

Originally posted by kronik:
Huh? Are you saying Joyner is the only good safety in the draft? I much rather grab a Jimmy Ward in the later rounds over him. Sorry if we don't agree in "value"

I'm saying in terms of being a playmaker, Joyner is a much better player than Ward and excelled at a higher level of competition. You may have an issue with his height, there will be plenty of NFL GM's that will look and see a guy who jumps out at you with some outstanding performances.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
I'm saying in terms of being a playmaker, Joyner is a much better player than Ward and excelled at a higher level of competition. You may have an issue with his height, there will be plenty of NFL GM's that will look and see a guy who jumps out at you with some outstanding performances.

Agreed but will NFL GM's use a first round pick on him? That's the million dollar question

Originally posted by kronik:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Come on kronik. You know Mathieu lasted until the 3rd because he missed his entire junior season. He's easily a first rounder if he hadn't got kicked off the team and didn't play in 2012.

I'm just saying great slots or nickel corners can be found throughout the draft easily imo. No need to use a first round pick. Don't get me wrong, I do like Joyner as a slot cb. But it doesn't mean he's worth a first. There are a ton of great players in the draft, possibly the deepest. Maybe in a down year, Joyner could be a first. But not this year imo.

But I think the point that they are trying to make is that Joyner would also serve as their future Safety as well and could flourish at that position. So if that's the case, then a 1st round value isn't too far fetched. Although I know you are not a fan of his at the Safety position , so I see where you are coming from.

Originally posted by kronik:
Agreed but will NFL GM's use a first round pick on him? That's the million dollar question

That remains to me seen, if he does well at the Combine, sure, why not? Verrett isn't much taller, with a lesser frame and he'll be a high pick as well. The reality is when you can get a guy with Top 5 talent at the back end of the 1st round because of questions about his height and not ability to play football, its a steal.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
That remains to me seen, if he does well at the Combine, sure, why not? Verrett isn't much taller, with a lesser frame and he'll be a high pick as well. The reality is when you can get a guy with Top 5 talent at the back end of the 1st round because of questions about his height and not ability to play football, its a steal.

Name some past late round 1st round slot cornerbacks that have proven to be steals due to lack of size/height. You keep throwing cliche's and hypothetical what if's but looking around the league, I don't see one starting nickel-back in the NFL drafted in the first round. Do you see any?

Originally posted by kronik:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
That remains to me seen, if he does well at the Combine, sure, why not? Verrett isn't much taller, with a lesser frame and he'll be a high pick as well. The reality is when you can get a guy with Top 5 talent at the back end of the 1st round because of questions about his height and not ability to play football, its a steal.

Name some past late round 1st round slot cornerbacks that have proven to be steals. Looking around the league, I don't see one starting nickel-back drafted in the first round. Do you see any?

I don't see any. I also don't see any 1st round QBs under 5'11" being drafted, though that was clearly a mistake 32 teams made by passing on Russell Wilson. And make no mistake, the only reason they passed on Wilson was his lack of height, because he has/had everything else you look for in a QB.

Point being, the game changes and the rigid rules of drafting come back to bite teams when they fail to see past height/weight/speed issues. So the answer to your question is "none," but that doesn't make your logic fool-proof. It only makes you adhere to what's been done in the past.

I also see that barrier being broken this year with either Joyner or Verrett (and possibly even both) being drafted in the late 1st. At worse, they're early 2nd round picks, which is practically the same thing as a late 1st rounder, though teams lose out on getting a 5th year on their contract.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I don't see any. I also don't see any 1st round QBs under 5'11" being drafted, though that was clearly a mistake 32 teams made by passing on Russell Wilson. And make no mistake, the only reason they passed on Wilson was his lack of height, because he has/had everything else you look for in a QB.

Point being, the game changes and the rigid rules of drafting come back to bite teams when they fail to see past height/weight/speed issues. So the answer to your question is "none," but that doesn't make your logic fool-proof. It only makes you adhere to what's been done in the past.

I also see that barrier being broken this year with either Joyner or Verrett (and possibly even both) being drafted in the late 1st. At worse, they're early 2nd round picks, which is practically the same thing as a late 1st rounder, though teams lose out on getting a 5th year on their contract.

I can agree that there are exceptions and the barrier will be broken sooner or later. But this year's class is so deep. The Pittsburgh GM says in his 30 years in the business, this is the best class he's seen. I think this year, there will be players just as talented if not more. And they will be much bigger and well-suited to last 10 years in the NFL. We shall see. Sorry to derail your thread btw.