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Jerry Rice Ran a 4.71 40 and Rocket Ismail Ran a 4.28

  • SaksV
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,340
Originally posted by highway49:
Originally posted by DarkKnight1680:
I can't for the life of me figure out why the NFL insists on only doing the track-style 40. How hard would it be to add position-specific speed-timing drills, IN PADS?

WRs start standing up, go on the whistle and run a 40 yard fly route, and they have to look over their shoulder for the last 10 yards. CBs start in normal defensive stance, and at the whistle they open hips and run that same 40 yard fly route. Defensive linemen start in stance and run 10-15 yards in a curve around a barrier. Etc.

Wouldn't this give teams a much better idea of true speed, in pads, in a game situation? Why does it matter if one WR is better at getting in and out of a track stance? It doesn't!

True enough, and while your at it, have 'em put on cleats and run on real grass.....oh yea and soak their uniforms with sweat also....

In other words: Training Camp
Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by Raul98:
Your right he never had a serious injury until his 13th year in the league that's pretty amazing now a days players cant go 13 games without suffering a injury. And Rice came back in the same season from his injury which was also amazing.

This is a bit off topic but, you know what baffles me the most? Some of the older fans on this site may remember this too....Jerry had a lot of ankle sprains during his career but it never seemed to slow him down at all. I can recall him showing up on the injury list almost every week with an ankle sprain during the 1988-1991 seasons LOL. I wish I had PVR back then of a sports news clip showing just how nasty his lower leg looked the week leading up to Super Bowl XXIII.
He was truly a machine.

He was a amazing player you could truly tell he was a my legs would have to be broken for me to not be on the field type of a player he truly is greatness and a throw back to the old school players.
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
All of this. I was actually watching a few youtube clips of old 49ers games, mainly from the 80s. I know I truly believed as a child, Jerry Rice was the fastest receiver in the game lol. It seemed like no one could catch him from behind once he had that ball in his hands. That's what you call football speed. When a guy plays fast and is outrunning guys on the field who have probably been timed to be faster than he is.

Fortunately, a guy like Baalke isn't fooled by 40 teams. He looks for own field production.
I seen the same thing no one caught flash 80on those quick slants,Rice most certainly had football speed.
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
All of this. I was actually watching a few youtube clips of old 49ers games, mainly from the 80s. I know I truly believed as a child, Jerry Rice was the fastest receiver in the game lol. It seemed like no one could catch him from behind once he had that ball in his hands. That's what you call football speed. When a guy plays fast and is outrunning guys on the field who have probably been timed to be faster than he is.

Fortunately, a guy like Baalke isn't fooled by 40 teams. He looks for own field production.
I seen the same thing no one caught flash 80on those quick slants,Rice most certainly had football speed.

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Good post and comments.

40 time a one factor but doesn't guarantee success.

IMO game tape says 90% of it. I do take into account how the coaches use that talent.

Some players take some time to mature like Staley - many complained about him for the first few years. But now he is one of the best T's in the game. Finding that kind of potential is tough.

DHBey is real fast but a third rate receiver. Steve Smith -Panthers, is not a real burner BUT is one of the very best receivers in football. Never played on a descent team. If he had played for us or w/Packers when Farve played he'd have set some records.

I think Montcrief is that type of guy. I'm really hoping we can snag him.

Steve Smith when younger had blazing football speed ,look up that NFc Championship playoff game against the Rams he caught a slant and just pulled away from everybody for a td.
Of course 40 times don't make or break a guy. Just because someone likes to talk about 40s doesn't mean they are Al Davis and that's all they care about. 40 times do have some significance though and they are fun to talk about. It helps teams get a better picture of what kind of speed that player has. It is taken into account along with their speed on tape. And if you take two of the exact same players, the one with more speed will be the better player. Can you imagine how good Anquan would be if he had breakaway speed to go along with everything else that he is so great at?
  • Axl49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,391
never been a big 40 time guy. I ran track and you dont reach top game speed or pull away speed till about 50 meters out. WRs need to learn how to beat bump and run crisp routes that will get you open. Tim Brown, Chris Carter, Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, Isaac Bruce, Reggie Wayne werent blazing fast per sey like Wallace or Moss were but still had plenty of success. It goes both ways but not the end of the world if a great prospect doesnt run sub 4.5 speed.
  • Axl49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,391
Originally posted by jrouter4949:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
All of this. I was actually watching a few youtube clips of old 49ers games, mainly from the 80s. I know I truly believed as a child, Jerry Rice was the fastest receiver in the game lol. It seemed like no one could catch him from behind once he had that ball in his hands. That's what you call football speed. When a guy plays fast and is outrunning guys on the field who have probably been timed to be faster than he is.

Fortunately, a guy like Baalke isn't fooled by 40 teams. He looks for own field production.
I seen the same thing no one caught flash 80on those quick slants,Rice most certainly had football speed.

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Good post and comments.

40 time a one factor but doesn't guarantee success.

IMO game tape says 90% of it. I do take into account how the coaches use that talent.

Some players take some time to mature like Staley - many complained about him for the first few years. But now he is one of the best T's in the game. Finding that kind of potential is tough.

DHBey is real fast but a third rate receiver. Steve Smith -Panthers, is not a real burner BUT is one of the very best receivers in football. Never played on a descent team. If he had played for us or w/Packers when Farve played he'd have set some records.

I think Montcrief is that type of guy. I'm really hoping we can snag him.

Steve Smith when younger had blazing football speed ,look up that NFc Championship playoff game against the Rams he caught a slant and just pulled away from everybody for a td.

Greatest overtime game I ever saw.
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
40 time is an important metric, and a big predictor of success. It has some false positives and negatives (which you pointed out), but that seems to be all people remember. More often than not, it does indicate game speed, and game speed is very important.


I completely agree with this. The 40 time is a very important metric for success.

That is why we should definitely draft a WR who runs a 4.6 or slower.
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Yeah, I don't think a fast 40 guarantees success, however it should get some guys a second look. Paul Richardson, for example, is a 3rd/4th rd prospect. He looks fast on the field, but how fast is hard to tell. If he runs a 4.48, it means he's fast, and has game speed, and enough to play in the NFL, and will remain in that range. If, however, he runs a 4.33 then it becomes apparent that his speed is special, and is a strong indicator that it will translate well to the NFL. He'll skyrocket into the 2nd round. 2 others to watch out for are Martavius Bryant and Kelvin Benjamin. With their size, if they truly light up the 40, that's some scare athleticism and speed to put out on the field on Sundays. If KB runs a sub 4.4, he'll be a top 10 pick. Simply too much upside. If, however, a guy who simply sucks comes out and runs a 4.3, he'll get drafted, but only as a project. Someone will see the raw speed and see if they can coach that into a football player. But agreed, by no means does it guarantee success.

I think you're getting at the key point of the thread: guys (especially receivers) are routinely over-hyped and even over-drafted based on their 40 times. Darrius Heyward-Bey and A.J. Jenkins come to mind immediately.

I don't get what happened with AJ. He ran fast, he played fast, his film was solid, solid measurables, huge hands and productive. Maybe he was a stretch in rd.1, but to be this worthless? I still don't it. Must be the mental part of the game.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Yeah, I don't think a fast 40 guarantees success, however it should get some guys a second look. Paul Richardson, for example, is a 3rd/4th rd prospect. He looks fast on the field, but how fast is hard to tell. If he runs a 4.48, it means he's fast, and has game speed, and enough to play in the NFL, and will remain in that range. If, however, he runs a 4.33 then it becomes apparent that his speed is special, and is a strong indicator that it will translate well to the NFL. He'll skyrocket into the 2nd round. 2 others to watch out for are Martavius Bryant and Kelvin Benjamin. With their size, if they truly light up the 40, that's some scare athleticism and speed to put out on the field on Sundays. If KB runs a sub 4.4, he'll be a top 10 pick. Simply too much upside. If, however, a guy who simply sucks comes out and runs a 4.3, he'll get drafted, but only as a project. Someone will see the raw speed and see if they can coach that into a football player. But agreed, by no means does it guarantee success.

I think you're getting at the key point of the thread: guys (especially receivers) are routinely over-hyped and even over-drafted based on their 40 times. Darrius Heyward-Bey and A.J. Jenkins come to mind immediately.

What I really like about guys like Robert Herron and Donte Moncrief in particular, is they PLAY fast on the field. Herron is fast in general, but it also translates to playing fast with the ball in his hands. That's not always the case for smaller/faster WRs. Moncrief may not blow anyone away with his 40 time, but he just has a knack for gaining separation on defenders. He almost glides by corners/safeties in a way that reminds me of John Taylor.

the idea of being "not that fast" but running by people, makes me think of Kaep. Just takes 3 giant steps and he's gone
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I don't get what happened with AJ. He ran fast, he played fast, his film was solid, solid measurables, huge hands and productive. Maybe he was a stretch in rd.1, but to be this worthless? I still don't it. Must be the mental part of the game.

He came in physically weak. He couldn't deal with jamming at all. There were even reports of him falling down while making his breaks, without even being touched.

He had work ethic concerns while at Illinois too. The coaching staff had a hard time getting him motivated, then the light bulb turned on when his draft stock depended on it. You can get away with coasting at college when you're naturally gifted, but not in the NFL. Not a bad guy, just lazy and lacked confidence.

The whole thing reeked of "Kentwan Balmer 2.0". Same thing with him. He had all the size, talent, great senior tape, but a marginal work ethic. Had a great senior season, became a 1st round pick, started being lazy again, and couldn't catch up with the competition of the NFL. It's cutthroat, there is no time to f**k around.
Originally posted by genus49:
I still don't buy that Rice's time is really 4.71, someone may have fallen asleep on those hand timers.

But yeah obviously track speed without football pads =/ game speed.

I agree that you can't judge a player on 40 times.

However, Jerry Rice was drafted nearly 30 years ago ( I know hard to believe). I wonder how players trained back them. Perhaps Rice worked solely on route running and pass catching (just a guess).

Today's players start training months in advance to MAXIMIZE, their combine testing. Just saying, not sure Rice focused on his 40 but rather overall football skills. In addition, who knows how or who tested and who reported what. Reporting a 4.7 forty would be a good way of trying to get him to drop.

However I would compare the 40 times of players drafted in the last decade.

Example: Dashon's Goldson's 4.65 forty time is surprising as he plays much faster, but his body changed since his rookie year, more lean and cut.
40 times are useful in certain contexts. They're important, but not the end all be all.

Teams are better served to watch the tape and see how he runs in pads with the ball.
The first thing to look at is film and who they played against. Level of competition, how they played against players that are rated high in the same draft class and those that are now in the NFL. When they failed, was it because (like Reid,) they were trying to do to much because of lack of support?

The combine just reaffirms some of the possible capability, especially if they had production, but came from a small or middle tier school.

Rice isn't the only one and their will be others, like Chris Spielman-big production at Ohio State, bad combine, but made the pro bowl many a time on a bad team. Plus coaching and does the player fit the system he is being drafted to, people often forget that part.