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Jerry Rice Ran a 4.71 40 and Rocket Ismail Ran a 4.28

Originally posted by DarkKnight1680:
If they made the tests more appropriate, those scouts might be more interested. I personally spend way more time watching the position drills. Especially with the wideouts, you can really spot the guys who are true route runners and/or true pass catchers, and not just athletes.

True, but even that is difficult. The gauntlet drill only tells you how well a guy can run in a straight line in shorts while catching balls from a bunch of different QBs.

The main problem with position drills is that they're non-contact and physicality is obviously a huge aspect of football.

I would like to see a more scientifically advanced way of measuring raw abilities. For example, you could easily replace the bench press with the ground-based jammer or a similar machine and measure maximum force output instead of strength endurance.
Deion Sanders ran a 4.2 and he became a top 3 cb of all time. 40 time doesnt tell the whole story true but speed is a factor in this game. Jerry rice just had that crazy work ethic that no one can match.
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Just a pre-combine thought for all of the young Al Davises among us. A 40-time doesn't make or break a guy. There's a lot more that goes into playing receiver.

Granted it's rare for a guy that runs a sub-4.65 to succeed in the NFL, but it does happen. I guess the key point is to not over-analyze 40 times.

Fun to watch and talk about? Yes, of course, but still not a big deal.

If you watch guys play enough, it becomes obvious who is truly fast out on the field and who isn't. Every year some guy comes out of nowhere, runs like a 4.35 and people lose their minds but when you go back and look at his performances, he doesn't play nearly close to that speed. I guess, beware the allure of experienced track athletes who have an edge in these drills and people who have been coached up for the Combine events but their athletic performance isn't reflected in the quality of their performance out on the football field.

All of this. I was actually watching a few youtube clips of old 49ers games, mainly from the 80s. I know I truly believed as a child, Jerry Rice was the fastest receiver in the game lol. It seemed like no one could catch him from behind once he had that ball in his hands. That's what you call football speed. When a guy plays fast and is outrunning guys on the field who have probably been timed to be faster than he is.

Fortunately, a guy like Baalke isn't fooled by 40 teams. He looks for own field production.

Agree with both of these posts 100%. When I was a kid I also thought Jerry Rice had blazing speed. Running the 40 certainly can't measure how well a guy runs routes and accelerates in and out of breaks. It's very rare that you have to run 40 yards in a straight line from a dead stop.
  • buck
  • Veteran
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The following list is for the fastest times since the implementation of electronic timing in 2000

Chris Johnson 2008 RB 4.24
Marquise Goodwin 2013 WR 4.27
Jerome Mathis 2005 WR 4.28
Jacoby Ford 2010 WR 4.28
DeMarcus Van Dyke 2011 CB 4.28
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie 2008 CB 4.29
Stanford Routt 2005 CB 4.29
Trindon Holliday 2010 WR 4.29
Fabian Washington 2005 CB 4.29
Darrius Heyward-Bey 2009 WR 4.30
Yamon Figurs 2007 WR 4.30
Darrent Williams 2005 CB 4.30
Tye Hill 2006 CB 4.30
Tyvon Branch 2008 CB 4.31
Justin King 2008 CB 4.31
Jonathan Joseph 2006 CB 4.31
Aaron Lockett 2002 WR 4.31
Santana Moss 2001 WR 4.31

Look at this list and you tell me what a fast 40 means.

Speed, like size, gains importance when looking at good players.

Speed and size do not help bad players.

Is there anyone who does not know this?
Originally posted by gold49digger:
Deion Sanders ran a 4.2 and he became a top 3 cb of all time. 40 time doesnt tell the whole story true but speed is a factor in this game. Jerry rice just had that crazy work ethic that no one can match.

Of course, but Rocket Ismail ran a 40 almost as fast as Deion's. I'm just saying the 40 time alone doesn't predict success.

Deion wasn't an all-time great because he ran a fast 40. He had tremendous overall athleticism and agility, and he could change directions as well as about anyone in the history of the game.
Originally posted by buck:
The following list is for the fastest times since the implementation of electronic timing in 2000

Chris Johnson 2008 RB 4.24
Marquise Goodwin 2013 WR 4.27
Jerome Mathis 2005 WR 4.28
Jacoby Ford 2010 WR 4.28
DeMarcus Van Dyke 2011 CB 4.28
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie 2008 CB 4.29
Stanford Routt 2005 CB 4.29
Trindon Holliday 2010 WR 4.29
Fabian Washington 2005 CB 4.29
Darrius Heyward-Bey 2009 WR 4.30
Yamon Figurs 2007 WR 4.30
Darrent Williams 2005 CB 4.30
Tye Hill 2006 CB 4.30
Tyvon Branch 2008 CB 4.31
Justin King 2008 CB 4.31
Jonathan Joseph 2006 CB 4.31
Aaron Lockett 2002 WR 4.31
Santana Moss 2001 WR 4.31

Look at this list and you tell me what a fast 40 means.

Speed, like size, gains importance when looking at good players.

Speed and size do not help bad players.

Is there anyone who does not know this?

Agreed on all points and great list. The answer to your last question is a resounding yes, though. Every year it seems half the board falls in love with a guy over his 40 time. Hell, Al Davis was once considered one of the best NFL executives of all time, and even he forgot that guys who suck at football and are fast still ultimately suck at football.
[ Edited by JamesGatz83 on Feb 14, 2014 at 10:50 AM ]
It doesn't matter what he was clocked at what is important is he ran amazing routes and once he had the ball in his hands he had the speed to take it to the house on any given play like Rice always says hes game fast once you put the pads on him and have guys chasing him his speed goes up.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
If you watch guys play enough, it becomes obvious who is truly fast out on the field and who isn't. Every year some guy comes out of nowhere, runs like a 4.35 and people lose their minds but when you go back and look at his performances, he doesn't play nearly close to that speed. I guess, beware the allure of experienced track athletes who have an edge in these drills and people who have been coached up for the Combine events but their athletic performance isn't reflected in the quality of their performance out on the football field.
This.

Imho, all of the combine is overrated just because, like Phoenix said, you can coach these things.
Rice didn't have great straight line speed, but he was among the best in the league at stop-start speed. He could accelerate to full speed from a stop quicker than anyone and that is how he scored a lot of his touchdowns. Crabtree has a little of that, to a lesser extent, though Crabtree has had lots of injury issues that Rice never had. Rice was an Iron Man.
Originally posted by BSofSF:
Rice didn't have great straight line speed, but he was among the best in the league at stop-start speed. He could accelerate to full speed from a stop quicker than anyone and that is how he scored a lot of his touchdowns. Crabtree has a little of that, to a lesser extent, though Crabtree has had lots of injury issues that Rice never had. Rice was an Iron Man.

Your right he never had a serious injury until his 13th year in the league that's pretty amazing now a days players cant go 13 games without suffering a injury. And Rice came back in the same season from his injury which was also amazing.
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
40 time is an important metric, and a big predictor of success. It has some false positives and negatives (which you pointed out), but that seems to be all people remember. More often than not, it does indicate game speed, and game speed is very important.

I agree with you to an extent as far as it being an important metric. I just think people misuse it.

If a receiver comes out and runs a time below 4.65, it is very unlikely (but obviously not impossible) that he'll succeed in the league. There are only a handful of examples in league history, so we can use that as a sort of disqualifier or red flag.

Where people go wrong, however, is thinking that running a 4.30 guarantees success. There are as many examples of very fast failures as there are very fast successes.

Bottom line: As long as a guy runs under 4.6, I don't think there's reason to worry too much about 40 times--provided the rest of his evaluation indicates he can play.

Yeah, I don't think a fast 40 guarantees success, however it should get some guys a second look. Paul Richardson, for example, is a 3rd/4th rd prospect. He looks fast on the field, but how fast is hard to tell. If he runs a 4.48, it means he's fast, and has game speed, and enough to play in the NFL, and will remain in that range. If, however, he runs a 4.33 then it becomes apparent that his speed is special, and is a strong indicator that it will translate well to the NFL. He'll skyrocket into the 2nd round. 2 others to watch out for are Martavius Bryant and Kelvin Benjamin. With their size, if they truly light up the 40, that's some scare athleticism and speed to put out on the field on Sundays. If KB runs a sub 4.4, he'll be a top 10 pick. Simply too much upside. If, however, a guy who simply sucks comes out and runs a 4.3, he'll get drafted, but only as a project. Someone will see the raw speed and see if they can coach that into a football player. But agreed, by no means does it guarantee success.
Originally posted by JamesGatz83:
Originally posted by buck:
The following list is for the fastest times since the implementation of electronic timing in 2000

Chris Johnson 2008 RB 4.24
Marquise Goodwin 2013 WR 4.27
Jerome Mathis 2005 WR 4.28
Jacoby Ford 2010 WR 4.28
DeMarcus Van Dyke 2011 CB 4.28
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie 2008 CB 4.29
Stanford Routt 2005 CB 4.29
Trindon Holliday 2010 WR 4.29
Fabian Washington 2005 CB 4.29
Darrius Heyward-Bey 2009 WR 4.30
Yamon Figurs 2007 WR 4.30
Darrent Williams 2005 CB 4.30
Tye Hill 2006 CB 4.30
Tyvon Branch 2008 CB 4.31
Justin King 2008 CB 4.31
Jonathan Joseph 2006 CB 4.31
Aaron Lockett 2002 WR 4.31
Santana Moss 2001 WR 4.31

Look at this list and you tell me what a fast 40 means.

Speed, like size, gains importance when looking at good players.

Speed and size do not help bad players.

Is there anyone who does not know this?

Agreed on all points and great list. The answer to your last question is a resounding yes, though. Every year it seems half the board falls in love with a guy over his 40 time. Hell, Al Davis was once considered one of the best NFL executives of all time, and even he forgot that guys who suck at football and are fast still ultimately suck at football.

That's a pretty strong list of players. Of course not all pan out, but many have made a lot of plays in the league. It's easy to say that it helped the good ones and didn't help the bad ones, but who know who a good or bad player is beforehand?
Saying speed helped some of them is also questionable. you have to have a certain level of speed but ovr you need skills in the first, second and third place.
Let's look only for guys that run 4.71.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Let's look only for guys that run 4.71.

Dang doesn't Joe Staley run 4.7. Hey looks like we already got the next jerry rice but this dude is 300lb maybe we should give him a chance.
[ Edited by TheGoldDiggerrrr on Feb 14, 2014 at 12:36 PM ]