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LaMarcus Joyner-CB/S-FSU

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Whitner had his struggles early on, however a lot of that can be put on Goldson who wasn't always covering his responsibilities. Putting Whitner and Reid together clearly clicked as they both had very good seasons.

So you're saying it took him 3 years to be "solid" And now we have to keep him? Tell me what he is good at? Coverage? Run support? In my opinion, his coverage is below average. His run support is over-rated. People think he can stop the run due to a few good hits (usually penalized hits), but if he has to rely on wrapping up with his short arms, he gets trucked or bounces off.

With all that being said, Whitner is bigger and faster than Joyner. I'm worried for Joyner's future as a safety.
[ Edited by kronik on Feb 25, 2014 at 2:47 PM ]
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Whitner had his struggles early on, however a lot of that can be put on Goldson who wasn't always covering his responsibilities. Putting Whitner and Reid together clearly clicked as they both had very good seasons.

So you're saying it took him 3 years to be "solid" And now we have to keep him? Tell me what he is good at? Coverage? Run support? In my opinion, his coverage is below average. His run support is over-rated. People think he can stop the run due to a few good hits (usually penalized hits), but if he has to rely on wrapping up with his short arms, he gets trucked or bounces off.

With all that being said, Whitner is bigger and faster than Joyner. I'm worried for Joyner's future as a safety.

I thought Whitner did great his first year here and really set the tone in the playoffs with that hit on Pierre Thomas, regressed badly in 2012 and played much better this past season. Not sure he does any one thing really well besides being an enforcer, but that's something this defense seems to thrive on (regardless of the penalties). Trust me, I was one of the louder voices on this board saying Whitner had to go after 2012, and was disappointed when they didn't release him.

He's not great, but he definitely had a bounce-back year in 2013 and is worth bringing back on a 2 year deal while we draft/develop his replacement in May.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Whitner had his struggles early on, however a lot of that can be put on Goldson who wasn't always covering his responsibilities. Putting Whitner and Reid together clearly clicked as they both had very good seasons.

So you're saying it took him 3 years to be "solid" And now we have to keep him? Tell me what he is good at? Coverage? Run support? In my opinion, his coverage is below average. His run support is over-rated. People think he can stop the run due to a few good hits (usually penalized hits), but if he has to rely on wrapping up with his short arms, he gets trucked or bounces off.

With all that being said, Whitner is bigger and faster than Joyner. I'm worried for Joyner's future as a safety.

I thought Whitner did great his first year here and really set the tone in the playoffs with that hit on Pierre Thomas, regressed badly in 2012 and played much better this past season. Not sure he does any one thing really well besides being an enforcer, but that's something this defense seems to thrive on (regardless of the penalties). Trust me, I was one of the louder voices on this board saying Whitner had to go after 2012, and was disappointed when they didn't release him.

He's not great, but he definitely had a bounce-back year in 2013 and is worth bringing back on a 2 year deal while we draft/develop his replacement in May.

i felt that Whitner has done well enough to warrant a 2 yr deal.

regarding his hits causing penalties, also remember that he was never fined for any of those hits. just a matter of a great hit being punished by eager refs
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
i felt that Whitner has done well enough to warrant a 2 yr deal.

regarding his hits causing penalties, also remember that he was never fined for any of those hits. just a matter of a great hit being punished by eager refs

I don't care about his bank account. I care about opponents getting free first downs. Other players are getting the message that it doesn't have to be bad to look bad, and that it will get a flag when it looks bad. He is limited because re rarely makes a play on the ball, so he must play the man. Unless they're going to pick up the flag, being proven right does nothing for us. Changing his name to 'Hitner' will only make it worse, IMO. Dumb move.
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
i felt that Whitner has done well enough to warrant a 2 yr deal.

regarding his hits causing penalties, also remember that he was never fined for any of those hits. just a matter of a great hit being punished by eager refs

I don't care about his bank account. I care about opponents getting free first downs. Other players are getting the message that it doesn't have to be bad to look bad, and that it will get a flag when it looks bad. He is limited because re rarely makes a play on the ball, so he must play the man. Unless they're going to pick up the flag, being proven right does nothing for us. Changing his name to 'Hitner' will only make it worse, IMO. Dumb move.

yea but it's not his fault!! that's what im saying. his hits are legal but because he hits like a damn truck, he gets flagged for them. NOT HIS FAULT.
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
i felt that Whitner has done well enough to warrant a 2 yr deal.

regarding his hits causing penalties, also remember that he was never fined for any of those hits. just a matter of a great hit being punished by eager refs

I don't care about his bank account. I care about opponents getting free first downs. Other players are getting the message that it doesn't have to be bad to look bad, and that it will get a flag when it looks bad. He is limited because re rarely makes a play on the ball, so he must play the man. Unless they're going to pick up the flag, being proven right does nothing for us. Changing his name to 'Hitner' will only make it worse, IMO. Dumb move.

yea but it's not his fault!! that's what im saying. his hits are legal but because he hits like a damn truck, he gets flagged for them. NOT HIS FAULT.

Totally agree. Don't care. If others have adjusted their games to make un-penalized plays in the backfield, then he must also adjust or GTFO. Right or wrong, those penalties are killers.
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
i felt that Whitner has done well enough to warrant a 2 yr deal.

regarding his hits causing penalties, also remember that he was never fined for any of those hits. just a matter of a great hit being punished by eager refs

I don't care about his bank account. I care about opponents getting free first downs. Other players are getting the message that it doesn't have to be bad to look bad, and that it will get a flag when it looks bad. He is limited because re rarely makes a play on the ball, so he must play the man. Unless they're going to pick up the flag, being proven right does nothing for us. Changing his name to 'Hitner' will only make it worse, IMO. Dumb move.

yea but it's not his fault!! that's what im saying. his hits are legal but because he hits like a damn truck, he gets flagged for them. NOT HIS FAULT.

Totally agree. Don't care. If others have adjusted their games to make un-penalized plays in the backfield, then he must also adjust or GTFO. Right or wrong, those penalties are killers.

dont agree with that. his hits are legal but the refs think otherwise if they see the ball carrier react a certain way or by the impact of the hit. defenders get the short end of the stick all the time.
Whitner flagged for unnecessary roughness 5 times last year, tied for 2nd in the league. The Niners as a team were 3rd in the league behind Tampa (Goldson) and Seattle (both teams played 19 games though). Through those penalties, Whitner cost us 51 yards on the year with his hits but one of those was in the playoffs, so really it was 4 penalties during the regular season for 36 yards. He didn't take any PI penalties and only took 7 penalties on the year, 3 coming against Atlanta. One of those penalties was unsportsmanlike conduct against Atlanta after he was flagged for what was a clean hit as well. In total, 53 yards on the season, that includes a taunting penalty against the Seahawks when we beat them.

Essentially he only cost us 36 yards on 4 penalties with his hits, one of which was the BS call in the red zone against Atlanta. Two of them were in blowouts, beating down the Rams and the Bucs and didn't hurt us AT ALL Three of his 4 regular season penalties for unnecessary roughness were either the wrong call or had NO impact on the game. The previous season in 2012, 1 penalty, also 1 penalty in 2011, both for facemasks and not unnecessary roughness.

In 2012 Goldson had 4 unnecessary roughness penalties for 57 yards, 2 unsportsmanlikes and 1 PI call for a total of 102 yards, 87 in the regular season. This year Reid was not flagged. A lot of it has to do with his new role now that Eric Reid is here. He is still penalized less than Goldson and although his penalties are up (he only had 1 in 2012) our safeties looked better last year. I would welcome Whitner back with open arms.
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
dont agree with that. his hits are legal but the refs think otherwise if they see the ball carrier react a certain way or by the impact of the hit. defenders get the short end of the stick all the time.

I hope the nfl gets there act together as far as what is/isn't legal hitting wise because I like our secondaries style of coming down hill and stopping the receivers right after the catch. A nickel defense with Reid, Whitner and Joyner sounds very imposing.
Originally posted by ModestoNiner33:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
dont agree with that. his hits are legal but the refs think otherwise if they see the ball carrier react a certain way or by the impact of the hit. defenders get the short end of the stick all the time.

I hope the nfl gets there act together as far as what is/isn't legal hitting wise because I like our secondaries style of coming down hill and stopping the receivers right after the catch. A nickel defense with Reid, Whitner and Joyner sounds very imposing.

that made me tingle right now. hope we draft Joyner.
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
i felt that Whitner has done well enough to warrant a 2 yr deal.

regarding his hits causing penalties, also remember that he was never fined for any of those hits. just a matter of a great hit being punished by eager refs

I don't care about his bank account. I care about opponents getting free first downs. Other players are getting the message that it doesn't have to be bad to look bad, and that it will get a flag when it looks bad. He is limited because re rarely makes a play on the ball, so he must play the man. Unless they're going to pick up the flag, being proven right does nothing for us. Changing his name to 'Hitner' will only make it worse, IMO. Dumb move.

yea but it's not his fault!! that's what im saying. his hits are legal but because he hits like a damn truck, he gets flagged for them. NOT HIS FAULT.

Totally agree. Don't care. If others have adjusted their games to make un-penalized plays in the backfield, then he must also adjust or GTFO. Right or wrong, those penalties are killers.

dont agree with that. his hits are legal but the refs think otherwise if they see the ball carrier react a certain way or by the impact of the hit. defenders get the short end of the stick all the time.

I don't like it either, but that's the reality we are in. The NFL is going to worry more about protecting themselves from future lawsuits than proetecting the physicality if the game, so the Personal Foul officiating is never going to get looser. We either adapt or die. The nly way to pressure the NFL is for tens of thousands of people to just stop watching, and that's not going to happen.
Those hits of his did not impact any of the games we played in other than perhaps the Colts game but our O was horrible. As I noted, he was only penalized once in 2012 and once in 2011 but now that Reid is here, Whitner has assumed the intimidatory role that Goldson held. He had 4 unnecessary roughness penalties during the regular season. Two came in blowouts, one was a BS call against Atlanta in the red zone. That doesn't mean his penalties won't prove more costly going forward but the fact that he wasn't fined means that there is some recognition that he is not a headhunter or dirty player. There will probably be an emphasis placed on the refs to study the point of impact and not simply look at the reaction of the intended receiver. I want Whitner back, Goldson's penalties were more frequent and cost us more yards and he was a pro-bowler. With Reid's coverage abilities Whitner looked a lot better and was free to play to his strengths. I'd like him back while we groom a replacement, I don't want our secondary losing any more guys than need be this offseason.
Originally posted by GoldenJoe:
Those hits of his did not impact any of the games we played in other than perhaps the Colts game but our O was horrible. As I noted, he was only penalized once in 2012 and once in 2011 but now that Reid is here, Whitner has assumed the intimidatory role that Goldson held. He had 4 unnecessary roughness penalties during the regular season. Two came in blowouts, one was a BS call against Atlanta in the red zone. That doesn't mean his penalties won't prove more costly going forward but the fact that he wasn't fined means that there is some recognition that he is not a headhunter or dirty player. There will probably be an emphasis placed on the refs to study the point of impact and not simply look at the reaction of the intended receiver. I want Whitner back, Goldson's penalties were more frequent and cost us more yards and he was a pro-bowler. With Reid's coverage abilities Whitner looked a lot better and was free to play to his strengths. I'd like him back while we groom a replacement, I don't want our secondary losing any more guys than need be this offseason.

well said
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by LaMichaelJeff:
i felt that Whitner has done well enough to warrant a 2 yr deal.

regarding his hits causing penalties, also remember that he was never fined for any of those hits. just a matter of a great hit being punished by eager refs

I don't care about his bank account. I care about opponents getting free first downs. Other players are getting the message that it doesn't have to be bad to look bad, and that it will get a flag when it looks bad. He is limited because re rarely makes a play on the ball, so he must play the man. Unless they're going to pick up the flag, being proven right does nothing for us. Changing his name to 'Hitner' will only make it worse, IMO. Dumb move.

yea but it's not his fault!! that's what im saying. his hits are legal but because he hits like a damn truck, he gets flagged for them. NOT HIS FAULT.

Totally agree. Don't care. If others have adjusted their games to make un-penalized plays in the backfield, then he must also adjust or GTFO. Right or wrong, those penalties are killers.

dont agree with that. his hits are legal but the refs think otherwise if they see the ball carrier react a certain way or by the impact of the hit. defenders get the short end of the stick all the time.

I don't like it either, but that's the reality we are in. The NFL is going to worry more about protecting themselves from future lawsuits than proetecting the physicality if the game, so the Personal Foul officiating is never going to get looser. We either adapt or die. The nly way to pressure the NFL is for tens of thousands of people to just stop watching, and that's not going to happen.

I honestly have to side with Whitner. SS by their very nature are supposed to be sure-tackling, hard-hitting players. The fact of the matter is, whether or not it's Whitner back there -- the 49ers are going to have an enforcer, a human missle so to speak out there at that position because that's how our system works best. Our defense thrives off it.

Finesse players don't belong at the strong safety position. Ed Reed, Polamalu, and in the past -- Adrian Wilson. All could demolish an opponent. Ideally, I am not going to take a SS who is going to get run over in the defensive backfield, or a SS who can't make a hit that can jar the ball loose to cause turnovers or make a receiver drop a pass. Those kinds of plays matter. Even if you have 5 personal fouls (legit or not), that's 75 yards total. Whitner more than makes up for that by the plays he makes that force turnovers, makes receivers alligator arm or drop passes. This past year, Whitner had a career high 12 passes defenses, along with 2 forced fumbles, 2 picks, and 1 fumble recovery.

He's a playmaker that simply had bad luck with the calls that were made. From what I can tell, he had ZERO unnecessary roughness penalties in the season prior to this year.
College football is making these "targeting" calls reviewable by the refs to make sure they get the calls right, so I can see the NFL doing the same very soon.