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Florida State WR Kelvin Benjamin

Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
If you watched the Florida game, you'd understand why. Florida's defense was ranked 8th overall in the nation last year and 7th in pass defense. As a defense, they only gave up 9 TD pass all season, and have given up only 16 TD passes in two years total...that's how good the Gators are against the pass.

Kelvin Benjamin torched them this year for 9 catches, 212 yards and 3 TD passes. Yes, Benjamin alone was responsible for 1/3 of all the TD passes allowed by the Florida defense this season. He might've had an even bigger game if not for 3 drops (which is something he REALLY needs to work on). You don't have to like the guy nor do you have to see him as a 1st round talent, but that kind of production against a team laden with NFL talent and adept at shutting teams down in the passing game, warrants a look.

Good point. Funny thing I have watched that game multiple times. I wanted to scout the Gators secondary and after the game I was left with the impression that Benjamins performance was more indicative of Floridas complete collapse. Muschamp was ripping heads off on the sideline. The team gave up.

But none the less he did have a big game. Florida played him in off man most the game which only worked as long as the rush was getting there. When the pass rush failed you had a 6'6 beast running full speed in an off man cushion. Too much space for him to operate. Auburn actually played him in press and almost embarrassingly he was pressed off by a guy 8 incbes shorter than him.

I rewatched the game though. He has a slow release. Hes clearly not a natural runner. Personally I think NFL DBs would eat him up. He looks as if he's struggling to gain momentum with that frame. If he slimmed down and worked on his route running for a couple of years he could be a Vince Jackson type. He will never be a polished route runner but he's the type of guy that can power through coverage but yet again he's sooo raw.

We clearly have a different perspective on that game. I remember Benjamin breaking about 5 tackles in the first half to score a big TD, blowing by Purifoy for his second score and running a nice rub-route to the corner of the end zone for his final TD pass. Also, most college teams play off-man coverage, which means most college WRs struggle from a technique standpoint when a team decides to press. But that technique can be taught, as can running the route-tree cleanly. What can't be taught is a 6'5, 230ish WR who is adept at high-pointing the ball who also has been timed at 4.52. Those are special skills for a WR who still has two years left of college eligibility.

Where he is weak, he can be coached up. The REAL question to me is, how willing is he to be coached up in these areas and how dedicated will he be to learn his craft? Put the right people around him and get him properly motivated, and he can be a beast. Expect that he'll come in and work JUST BECAUSE he's now getting paid to play the game, and you'll likely end up with a huge bust on your hands.
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Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
That's silly. He's much much more fluid than Williams. Guy run in the 4.4 range he'll go top 15. Guys just rant that big fast and can catch.

4.4?

Ive seen 4.4 in a WR and Benjamin is not 4.4 nor will he be in the range. My best guess is 4.6 and higher. You're going to have to wait for DGB to see 4.4 with a 6'6 frame

He ran 4.4 his freshman year when he was just 210 lbs but already 6'5.

Now he's 6'5 230 so he'll naturally lose the raw speed but he has trained and worked on his explosiveness he'll still be in the 4.5s easily.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
We clearly have a different perspective on that game. I remember Benjamin breaking about 5 tackles in the first half to score a big TD, blowing by Purifoy for his second score and running a nice rub-route to the corner of the end zone for his final TD pass. Also, most college teams play off-man coverage, which means most college WRs struggle from a technique standpoint when a team decides to press. But that technique can be taught, as can running the route-tree cleanly. What can't be taught is a 6'5, 230ish WR who is adept at high-pointing the ball who also has been timed at 4.52. Those are special skills for a WR who still has two years left of college eligibility.

Where he is weak, he can be coached up. The REAL question to me is, how willing is he to be coached up in these areas and how dedicated will he be to learn his craft? Put the right people around him and get him properly motivated, and he can be a beast. Expect that he'll come in and work JUST BECAUSE he's now getting paid to play the game, and you'll likely end up with a huge bust on your hands.

That was my point. Missed tackles, poor coverage, and an overall lack of discipline. Benjamin did not impose his will as much as the Gator secondary gave up. I think the point is further reinforcerd by his lack of production againsy "lesser" secondaries that actually gave a damn to win. Plain and simple he should be beating the press with his size. He showed an inability to beat multiple coverages against Auburns no name secondary. He was pressed off by 5'11 DBs that he has 35 pds on. I mean thats awful. Also not all WR are bad against the press. Landry and beckham jr. run beautiful route when pressed and they're 7 inches shorter and 30 pds lighter. Wait till NFL DBs get underneath him. That sluggish frame will never get off the line. Yea he can high point a ball but he also dropped a couple of big receptions in the NCG so I wouldn't feel confidant in spending my 1st rd on a guy that literally only offers elite size. Especially considering the way WR have developed recently.

Personally I think Jarvis Landry, Moncrief, Allen Robinson, Devante Adams, Jordan Matthews would be great fits. They're the closest thing to all round prospect we will get in the 1-3 range.
Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
I wouldn't touch Benjamin and I'm sure the 49ers wouldn't either they learned from the Jenkins pick you can have alot of talent but if you can catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team. His speed and separation is very frighting looks like USC Mike Williams.

Better Pick:
Allen Robinson
Jordan Matthews
Davante Adams
Odell Beckham
Jarvis Landry

That's silly. He's much much more fluid than Williams. Guy run in the 4.4 range he'll go top 15. Guys just rant that big fast and can catch.

ok stephen Hill of the Jets
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
That's silly. He's much much more fluid than Williams. Guy run in the 4.4 range he'll go top 15. Guys just rant that big fast and can catch.

4.4?

Ive seen 4.4 in a WR and Benjamin is not 4.4 nor will he be in the range. My best guess is 4.6 and higher. You're going to have to wait for DGB to see 4.4 with a 6'6 frame

Now DGB that kid is fluid a natural hands catcher and get separation a way better prospect than Benjamin
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
I wouldn't touch Benjamin and I'm sure the 49ers wouldn't either they learned from the Jenkins pick you can have alot of talent but if you can catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team. His speed and separation is very frighting looks like USC Mike Williams.

Better Pick:
Allen Robinson
Jordan Matthews
Davante Adams
Odell Beckham
Jarvis Landry

Since entering the league out of Texas Tech as the 10th overall draft pick in 2009, Crabtree has dropped 5.9 percent of his targets. Only five of the 69 qualified receivers have dropped more.

So there goes that premise.

Its not only about catching the ball Crabtree is a better route runner and knows how to get separation the only 2 time biletnikoff winner to compare him to Benjamin is terrible bro
Crabtree was hands down the best WR in his class and was a pure top 5 player that fell us at 10 because of his foot injury. He was the #1 overall player in that class by many scouts.

Benjamin is a mid to late first round talent at best. Benjamin is far behind where Crabtree was coming out. Not even close.
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
I wouldn't touch Benjamin and I'm sure the 49ers wouldn't either they learned from the Jenkins pick you can have alot of talent but if you can't catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team. His speed and separation is very frighting looks like USC Mike Williams.

Better Pick:
Allen Robinson
Jordan Matthews
Davante Adams
Odell Beckham
Jarvis Landry

Since entering the league out of Texas Tech as the 10th overall draft pick in 2009, Crabtree has dropped 5.9 percent of his targets. Only five of the 69 qualified receivers have dropped more.

So there goes that premise.

Its not only about catching the ball Crabtree is a better route runner and knows how to get separation the only 2 time biletnikoff winner to compare him to Benjamin is terrible bro

Intellectually lazy on your part to say I'm "comparing" him to Crabtree; clearly I didn't do that. You said plainly that if "you can't catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team." I merely showed you that Crabtree is among the league leaders in dropped balls, but he's still on this team and clearly plays at a high level. That's not a comparison; that's refuting your statement.

Btw, Crabby was a s**tty route-runner coming out of college (where his team ran no routes); it took him awhile to sharpen that part of his game, as it will just about every rookie WR who plays in a non pro-style scheme like that. Again, that's not a comparison of the two; it's another refutation (there's a difference).
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
We clearly have a different perspective on that game. I remember Benjamin breaking about 5 tackles in the first half to score a big TD, blowing by Purifoy for his second score and running a nice rub-route to the corner of the end zone for his final TD pass. Also, most college teams play off-man coverage, which means most college WRs struggle from a technique standpoint when a team decides to press. But that technique can be taught, as can running the route-tree cleanly. What can't be taught is a 6'5, 230ish WR who is adept at high-pointing the ball who also has been timed at 4.52. Those are special skills for a WR who still has two years left of college eligibility.

Where he is weak, he can be coached up. The REAL question to me is, how willing is he to be coached up in these areas and how dedicated will he be to learn his craft? Put the right people around him and get him properly motivated, and he can be a beast. Expect that he'll come in and work JUST BECAUSE he's now getting paid to play the game, and you'll likely end up with a huge bust on your hands.

That was my point. Missed tackles, poor coverage, and an overall lack of discipline. Benjamin did not impose his will as much as the Gator secondary gave up. I think the point is further reinforcerd by his lack of production againsy "lesser" secondaries that actually gave a damn to win. Plain and simple he should be beating the press with his size. He showed an inability to beat multiple coverages against Auburns no name secondary. He was pressed off by 5'11 DBs that he has 35 pds on. I mean thats awful. Also not all WR are bad against the press. Landry and beckham jr. run beautiful route when pressed and they're 7 inches shorter and 30 pds lighter. Wait till NFL DBs get underneath him. That sluggish frame will never get off the line. Yea he can high point a ball but he also dropped a couple of big receptions in the NCG so I wouldn't feel confidant in spending my 1st rd on a guy that literally only offers elite size. Especially considering the way WR have developed recently.

Personally I think Jarvis Landry, Moncrief, Allen Robinson, Devante Adams, Jordan Matthews would be great fits. They're the closest thing to all round prospect we will get in the 1-3 range.

We could go back and forth, but I have a feeling it wouldn't do any good. We're both looking at this subjectively so when I say he played a great game against Florida, you say Florida didn't execute. Missed tackles from your perspective are broken tackles from mine; blow coverages in your opinion are actually coverages that were beaten by a bigger, stronger and more athletic WR.

I also never said ALL COLLEGE WRs are bad at getting off press coverage, because that's not true. Benjamin looked bad against Auburn, but the way you're explaining it, you make it seem as though he just never, ever, NEVER ever NEVER will learn how to beat press coverage...like he's somehow incapable of learning proper techniques at the next level for the remainder of his days. Needless to say, you don't know that, and needless to say, this is a skill that can be taught fairly easily.

But I do see this happen every year...guys playing in big games have their mistakes/weakness magnified with little-to-no attention paid to the entirety of the year. For Benjamin, he's not a possession guy like Rashad Greene. He's a big play guy (tied for 3rd nationally in TD receptions and 16th in YPC) who also drops more passes than he should, but also makes more game-changing plays than any other WR on his team. He's not AT ALL a finished product and has some glaring weaknesses, but also has some incredible tools to work with.

That aside, I'm not even saying we NEED to draft this guy. I'm a huge fan of Jordan Matthews, Allen Robinson, an even bigger fan of Jarvis Landry (I'm sure you've seen my gifs in the WR thread) and even Moncrief and Adams. I just see the negative aspects of Benjamin as extremely fixable....you don't (or at least don't trust him enough to fix them or to warrant a 1st round pick) and I respect that. Probably not much more needs to be said.
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 10, 2014 at 11:00 PM ]
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
We could go back and forth, but I have a feeling it wouldn't do any good. We're both looking at this subjectively so when I say he played a great game against Florida, you say Florida didn't execute. Missed tackles from your perspective are broken tackles from mine; blow coverages in your opinion are actually coverages that were beaten by a bigger, stronger and more athletic WR.

I also never said ALL COLLEGE WRs are bad at getting off press coverage, because that's not true. Benjamin looked bad against Auburn, but the way you're explaining it, you make it seem as though he just never, ever, NEVER ever NEVER will learn how to beat press coverage...like he's somehow incapable of learning proper techniques at the next level for the remainder of his days. Needless to say, you don't know that, and needless to say, this is a skill that can be taught fairly easily.

But I do see this happen every year...guys playing in big games have their mistakes/weakness magnified with little-to-no attention paid to the entirety of the year. For Benjamin, he's not a possession guy like Rashad Greene. He's a big play guy (tied for 3rd nationally in TD receptions and 16th in YPC) who also drops more passes than he should, but also makes more game-changing plays than any other WR on his team. He's not AT ALL a finished product and has some glaring weaknesses, but also has some incredible tools to work with.

That aside, I'm not even saying we NEED to draft this guy. I'm a huge fan of Jordan Matthews, Allen Robinson, an even bigger fan of Jarvis Landry (I'm sure you've seen my gifs in the WR thread) and even Moncrief and Adams. I just see the negative aspects of Benjamin as extremely fixable....you don't (or at least don't trust him enough to fix them or to warrant a 1st round pick) and I respect that. Probably not much more needs to be said.

My critique of Benjamin is not an indictment on Benjamin as a prospect, and you make a really good point on his potential. His measurables are elite. I don't think he's a good fit for this team. I don't think it would be smart to use an early pick on such a raw prospect. Honestly I dont think hes 1st rd pick but thats not the point. He can be successful in the league I just would prefer the FO not taking the chance because my guts tells me he wouldn't pan out. I do view him subjectively though. All the traits I value at his position he seems to lack but thats not say he can't learn them to extent. He just seems so raw I wonder how high the ceiling is. Anyways I hope we pick up any of the guys you listed. Its actually a pretty solid class for WR IMO.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
I wouldn't touch Benjamin and I'm sure the 49ers wouldn't either they learned from the Jenkins pick you can have alot of talent but if you can't catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team. His speed and separation is very frighting looks like USC Mike Williams.

Better Pick:
Allen Robinson
Jordan Matthews
Davante Adams
Odell Beckham
Jarvis Landry

Since entering the league out of Texas Tech as the 10th overall draft pick in 2009, Crabtree has dropped 5.9 percent of his targets. Only five of the 69 qualified receivers have dropped more.

So there goes that premise.

Its not only about catching the ball Crabtree is a better route runner and knows how to get separation the only 2 time biletnikoff winner to compare him to Benjamin is terrible bro

Intellectually lazy on your part to say I'm "comparing" him to Crabtree; clearly I didn't do that. You said plainly that if "you can't catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team." I merely showed you that Crabtree is among the league leaders in dropped balls, but he's still on this team and clearly plays at a high level. That's not a comparison; that's refuting your statement.

Btw, Crabby was a s**tty route-runner coming out of college (where his team ran no routes); it took him awhile to sharpen that part of his game, as it will just about every rookie WR who plays in a non pro-style scheme like that. Again, that's not a comparison of the two; it's another refutation (there's a difference).

Thats NOT all I said read the next sentence. If you want to make your statement please report your facts first. Clearly Crabtree is a better prospect than Benjamin your in the minority on that one.
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
We could go back and forth, but I have a feeling it wouldn't do any good. We're both looking at this subjectively so when I say he played a great game against Florida, you say Florida didn't execute. Missed tackles from your perspective are broken tackles from mine; blow coverages in your opinion are actually coverages that were beaten by a bigger, stronger and more athletic WR.

I also never said ALL COLLEGE WRs are bad at getting off press coverage, because that's not true. Benjamin looked bad against Auburn, but the way you're explaining it, you make it seem as though he just never, ever, NEVER ever NEVER will learn how to beat press coverage...like he's somehow incapable of learning proper techniques at the next level for the remainder of his days. Needless to say, you don't know that, and needless to say, this is a skill that can be taught fairly easily.

But I do see this happen every year...guys playing in big games have their mistakes/weakness magnified with little-to-no attention paid to the entirety of the year. For Benjamin, he's not a possession guy like Rashad Greene. He's a big play guy (tied for 3rd nationally in TD receptions and 16th in YPC) who also drops more passes than he should, but also makes more game-changing plays than any other WR on his team. He's not AT ALL a finished product and has some glaring weaknesses, but also has some incredible tools to work with.

That aside, I'm not even saying we NEED to draft this guy. I'm a huge fan of Jordan Matthews, Allen Robinson, an even bigger fan of Jarvis Landry (I'm sure you've seen my gifs in the WR thread) and even Moncrief and Adams. I just see the negative aspects of Benjamin as extremely fixable....you don't (or at least don't trust him enough to fix them or to warrant a 1st round pick) and I respect that. Probably not much more needs to be said.

My critique of Benjamin is not an indictment on Benjamin as a prospect, and you make a really good point on his potential. His measurables are elite. I don't think he's a good fit for this team. I don't think it would be smart to use an early pick on such a raw prospect. Honestly I dont think hes 1st rd pick but thats not the point. He can be successful in the league I just would prefer the FO not taking the chance because my guts tells me he wouldn't pan out. I do view him subjectively though. All the traits I value at his position he seems to lack but thats not say he can't learn them to extent. He just seems so raw I wonder how high the ceiling is. Anyways I hope we pick up any of the guys you listed. Its actually a pretty solid class for WR IMO.

I totally agree with eonblue couldn't have said it better myself too risky of a pick plus if the 49ers resign Boldin look for the to draft to be a speedster like Odell Beckham imo
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Harbaalke:
I wouldn't touch Benjamin and I'm sure the 49ers wouldn't either they learned from the Jenkins pick you can have alot of talent but if you can't catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team. His speed and separation is very frighting looks like USC Mike Williams.

Better Pick:
Allen Robinson
Jordan Matthews
Davante Adams
Odell Beckham
Jarvis Landry

Since entering the league out of Texas Tech as the 10th overall draft pick in 2009, Crabtree has dropped 5.9 percent of his targets. Only five of the 69 qualified receivers have dropped more.

So there goes that premise.

Its not only about catching the ball Crabtree is a better route runner and knows how to get separation the only 2 time biletnikoff winner to compare him to Benjamin is terrible bro

Intellectually lazy on your part to say I'm "comparing" him to Crabtree; clearly I didn't do that. You said plainly that if "you can't catch the ball consistantly you ain't a part of this team." I merely showed you that Crabtree is among the league leaders in dropped balls, but he's still on this team and clearly plays at a high level. That's not a comparison; that's refuting your statement.

Btw, Crabby was a s**tty route-runner coming out of college (where his team ran no routes); it took him awhile to sharpen that part of his game, as it will just about every rookie WR who plays in a non pro-style scheme like that. Again, that's not a comparison of the two; it's another refutation (there's a difference).

Thats NOT all I said read the next sentence. If you want to make your statement please report your facts first. Clearly Crabtree is a better prospect than Benjamin your in the minority on that one.

I never said Benjamin was a better prospect than Crabby. Stop making s**t up then accusing me of saying it (look up straw man argument).
Ok guys, let calm down
LOL at Benjamin being a 4.4 guy. I would not be surprised if he ran a 4.6. Dude is not only not fast, but might be slow