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Grade the 49ers 2010 Draft [3 years later]

Originally posted by capone0:
wow, you are pretty insane jreff. while i get your very hard grading system it poorly accounts for WAY too many things. also, does your college not ever curve things? i went to an ivy league university and on more than a few occasions an A was a 70% b/c the tests were insanely difficult--the average on the test was in the 30s and most of the people in the class were pretty damn smart.

in your joke of a rating system you some how value late round picks on the same footing as early round picks.

things should be scaled to not relatively value of your success much like classes have different credits. hitting big in the 1st vs hitting big in the 7th typically means a much higher upside player.

and some of your comments that 9er fans would say that all of our drafts are good b/c we got contributors is ridiculous. first of all, most would agree that our 2012 draft is still pretty poor, our 2008 draft was pretty much an F. but we've had some of the best drafts in the league. fine if you for some reason or another want to grade some of our picks an F, so be it, but even so if you hit huge in the NFL or anything that isn't school--they far outweigh a couple of minor misses in the mid to late rounds. while i think judging drafts more harshly makes sense, your system basically makes it so a ridiculous draft is a B- or B, and a once in a million year draft is an A. does that really make that much sense? i guess if that floats your boat it does. while i agree that most nfl graders are too easy at grading drafts and regularly giving out As when drafts are clearly not As. But our 2010 draft was a A in almost any book you can find. it's one of the best drafts in the league in the last 10 years and ignoring that to fit into your silly system is just being silly.
Yes I put a curve into place and posted it. That's why I argue that having a numerical grade and a letter grade are important. Looking at 20 drafts and seeing 7 A's doesn't show the separation between them. By having a numerical grade you can show which was best out of the A's.

I have said that late round picks get an easier grade for failing, C- while a 2nd round pick like Mays got an F, higher value pick.

Go back and look at our drafts from say 8 years to now. We have done very well if we are going to say well 2 players make or break it. While I agree that getting an A is hard in the system, it can be done.

Going back to the curve...

To really do this one would have to grade the entire draft for every team 3 years down the line. I'm not going to do that because I dont care about other teams. But if that was done the proper curve could be put into place (which again I did on page 8 I think) and we could see an A. But as you know, you need all the grades to properly implement a curve and we dont have those.
  • buck
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Originally posted by jreff22:
An A means to me, the specific pick was perfect and the player is a homerun....Willis, Gore, Miller etc etc. I have no problem handing out A's to players and do it a lot, but when you look at the whole class its hard to get an A without being damn near perfect. Many on here would give a class that got 2 probowlers and 5 F players and A, and than give a class with 2 probowlers and 5 B players and A.....all because of the 2 probowlers. A draft class is made up of more than just the 2 best guys and people seem to be forgetting that.

Your tone seem to have changed. Earlier you lambasted a fellow poster saying, "What you need to know is an A means perfection....did you miss that idea in school?"

Where I went to school A did not mean perfect, and I seriously doubt A means perfect in many schools or workplaces in the country.

Be real. According to your challenge to that poster, the only people who deserve a A are those who get 100% on every test and A on every essay.

That idea is flat out idiotic, and I can not imagine you really attended a school that only gave an A for perfection, or near perfection for that matter.

Now, you did back down, both your in original statement, and in your most recent post to include near perfect. But, given the intensity of your, attack that slight change seemed less than sincere, and more of an intent, perhaps subconsciously, to create the wiggle room needed to cover your behind against criticism.

But, as you have developed your own system for grading the draft you are fully entitled to only give an A to the perfect or near perfect. You also have every right to defend the grades that you give.

But, others also have the choice to grade the draft in the manner that they see fit.

I gave the draft a 3.4 on a scale of 4. A 3.4 in my experience would, depending on the teacher. range from a B+ to A. Given the fact, that every player drafted, including Taylor Mays, whom I gave a D, is still playing in the league (and that is a lot of good picks in 6th and 7th round), I have chosen to give the 2010 draft an overall A.

Originally posted by jreff22:
What you need to know is an A means perfection....did you miss that idea in school? A's are the hardest grade to achieve and are only given out when everything is perfect or ear perfect.
[ Edited by buck on May 7, 2013 at 2:54 PM ]
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by jreff22:
An A means to me, the specific pick was perfect and the player is a homerun....Willis, Gore, Miller etc etc. I have no problem handing out A's to players and do it a lot, but when you look at the whole class its hard to get an A without being damn near perfect. Many on here would give a class that got 2 probowlers and 5 F players and A, and than give a class with 2 probowlers and 5 B players and A.....all because of the 2 probowlers. A draft class is made up of more than just the 2 best guys and people seem to be forgetting that.

Your tone seem to have changed. Earlier you lambasted a fellow poster saying, "What you need to know is an A means perfection....did you miss that idea in school?"

Where I went to school A did not mean perfect, and I seriously doubt A means perfect in many schools or workplaces in the country.

Be real. According to your challenge to that poster, the only people who deserve a A are those who get 100% on every test and A on every essay.

That idea is flat out idiotic, and I can not imagine you really attended a school that only gave an A for perfection, or near perfection for that matter.

Now, you did back down, both your in original statement, and in your most recent post to include near perfect. But, given the intensity of your, attack that slight change seemed less than sincere, and more of an intent, perhaps subconsciously, to create the wiggle room needed to cover your behind against criticism.

But, as you have developed your own system for grading the draft you are fully entitled to only give an A to the perfect or near perfect. You also have every right to defend the grades that you give.

But, others also have the choice to grade the draft in the manner that they see fit.

I gave the draft a 3.4 on a scale of 4. A 3.4 in my experience would, depending on the teacher. range from a B+ to A. Given the fact, that every player drafted, including Taylor Mays, whom I gave a D, is still playing in the league (and that is a lot of good picks in 6th and 7th round), I have chosen to give the 2010 draft an overall A.

Originally posted by jreff22:
What you need to know is an A means perfection....did you miss that idea in school? A's are the hardest grade to achieve and are only given out when everything is perfect or ear perfect.
An A is the best you can get without using the A+ system which will make things more complicated and in reality is an honor based system which shouldn't apply after 3 years. The lowest a professor has ever graded an A- for me would be an 89 (I think and thats a final grade). Granted not perfection but its close. A 95 isn't perfect but its the highest echelon for instance in a letter system (minimum for an A). When I made this system I dropped the 100% limit to a 90% making it easier to get an A, and where the cutoff usually is.

Let me ask, if a 4.0 is not perfect what it? Straight A's is the best anybody can normally acquire. I wouldn't consider my 3.4 GPA perfect, I would consider a 4.0 perfect. And near perfection would be an A-. If posters are going to use a +/- system an A- would be close to perfect but not the best. But people arent adding up the actual numerical value of an A- or a C+ for instnace, they are eyeballing thier grades and throwing out a final grade....thats not accurate.

The problem I have with people grading a draft is how they come to a final grade. If you hand out 2 A's and a bunch of C's how is a final grade an A....it makes no logical sense. Sure we can say the 2 top picks make up for the short comings but what if the 2 A's were 7th rounders and the top picks were F's...does it still get an A because we have 2 probowlers? Under that logic our offensive from years past should get an A in skill positions becasue Vernon and Gore were probowlers....and we can just ignore all the other positions and players.

I get what I say isn't popular but I'm not trying to win a popularity contest. Getting people to discuss the merits of a class and how to better define and grade it was the purpose.

I gave the draft a 3.4 on a scale of 4. A 3.4 in my experience would, depending on the teacher. range from a B+ to A.

For me that would be a B+/A-


Now if you say anything less than an A you are apparently devoid of logic or NFL intelligence because its not an automatic A. If the grade or your grade is a B+, its a B+....white washing it with an A for a feel good statements doesn't do anything more than saying A+++++++++.

And I altered the system a tad and raised the grade to a B+/A- because there were some faults with it. Still not an A which makes people say I'm an idiot but apparently your final numbers give the same letter grade so I guess were both idiots.
I gave that draft an A 3 years ago. I loved the Bowman pick, actually wanted him to be picked earlier....and I also wanted him to be a day 1 starter replacing Spikes. I also really liked the two OL picks. And I do admit I actually liked the Mays pick.

I would still give it an A-

The problem with giving an A+ is, then what would you grade a draft that produced 3 HOFers????
best draft class EVER.
would have been nice to see who Baalke really wanted instead of Mays.
Originally posted by susweel:
would have been nice to see who Baalke really wanted instead of Mays.

We can speculate. Probably some player that flew under the radar but is paying nice dividends for whatever team drafted him.

Although some of these players don't exactly fit the description of under the radar, based on our needs at the time, I could see us taking anyone of the following; Javier Aremas, Terrance Cody, or Golden Tate.
Originally posted by susweel:
would have been nice to see who Baalke really wanted instead of Mays.

He was pretty pissed when the Eagles took Nate Allen.
A
Originally posted by ChazBoner:
Originally posted by phatbutskinny:
wrong forum! mods please move to draft room?

phail

phailbutskinny
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Its called an A-, I have never taken a test in HS or college that gives a full A at 90%.

I've taken classes/tests where you could get an A at 50%. You must've gone to some silly schools

Pretty well regarded Private HS and currently at UNF in two separate degree programs....if you have teachers that give you an A for getting half the questions right....dont know what to say. May I ask what school that was and what kind of class as well?

See, now it makes sense. You're a liberal arts/History guy. I studied chemical engineering - the class was Thermodynamics. So there you have it.
  • buck
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Originally posted by jreff22:
An A is the best you can get without using the A+ system which will make things more complicated and in reality is an honor based system which shouldn't apply after 3 years. The lowest a professor has ever graded an A- for me would be an 89 (I think and thats a final grade). Granted not perfection but its close. A 95 isn't perfect but its the highest echelon for instance in a letter system (minimum for an A). When I made this system I dropped the 100% limit to a 90% making it easier to get an A, and where the cutoff usually is.

Your grading system is yours. I am not telling or asking you to change either your system or your grade for the draft.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Let me ask, if a 4.0 is not perfect what it? Straight A's is the best anybody can normally acquire. I wouldn't consider my 3.4 GPA perfect, I would consider a 4.0 perfect. And near perfection would be an A-. If posters are going to use a +/- system an A- would be close to perfect but not the best. But people arent adding up the actual numerical value of an A- or a C+ for instnace, they are eyeballing thier grades and throwing out a final grade....thats not accurate.

Perfection means without errors or flaws. A student can get answers wrong, make errors, and have flaws in his work and get an A. So, having straight As does not mean perfection. I had a 4.0 for one semester. I did not get 100% on all of the tests. My work had errors. I made mistakes. I was not perfect.

This is not complicated. Like I said before, be real. Name me one school system in the US that requires perfection for a student to get an A.

I will bet you a dime on a dollar that University of North Florida does not require perfection to get an A. If you got a A- , which according to you is near perfection, with a grade of 89%, it seems pretty clear the UNF does not require perfection to get an A.

The idea that A represents perfection is, as I said before, a flat-out idiotic idea. I am not saying you are an idiot, only that the idea you are pushing is idiotic.

Originally posted by jreff22:

I gave the draft a 3.4 on a scale of 4. A 3.4 in my experience would, depending on the teacher. range from a B+ to A.

For me that would be a B+/A-

Yes, but I am not you, or you are not me.

I gave a draft a 3.4 on a scale of 4 and gave it an overall grade of a A based on my experience and my view of the overall draft.

You disagree with me. I disagree with you. We do not agree. Big deal.

But, let's be clear. I do not think the draft was perfect. The A grade that I gave represents excellence, not perfection.

This perfection that you speak of may be part of your grading system, but it is not part of mine.
I have never attended an educational institution that had in its grading system a standard of perfection or near perfection.

Truth be told, I do not think you have attended any educational institution where perfection was required to get a A.

Now, if you want to base your grades of Baalke's draft on grading scale that is not standard, that is your choice.

But, do ask me to do the same.




.
[ Edited by buck on May 7, 2013 at 8:30 PM ]
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Its called an A-, I have never taken a test in HS or college that gives a full A at 90%.

I've taken classes/tests where you could get an A at 50%. You must've gone to some silly schools

Pretty well regarded Private HS and currently at UNF in two separate degree programs....if you have teachers that give you an A for getting half the questions right....dont know what to say. May I ask what school that was and what kind of class as well?

See, now it makes sense. You're a liberal arts/History guy. I studied chemical engineering - the class was Thermodynamics. So there you have it.

For the work an engineer does wouldn't getting half wrong be a major real world problem when applying your skills to a project? If your math is wrong half the time I would imagine that would make for some disastrous situations...
Originally posted by buck:

Perfection means without errors or flaws. A student can get answers wrong, make errors, and have flaws in his work and get an A. So, having straight As does not mean perfection. I had a 4.0 for one semester. I did not get 100% on all of the tests. My work had errors. I made mistakes. I was not perfect.

This is not complicated. Like I said before, be real. Name me one school system in the US that requires perfection for a student to get an A.

I will bet you a dime on a dollar that University of North Florida does not require perfection to get an A. If you got a A- , which according to you is near perfection, with a grade of 89%, it seems pretty clear the UNF does not require perfection to get an A.

The idea that A represents perfection is, as I said before, a flat-out idiotic idea. I am not saying you are an idiot, only that the idea you are pushing is idiotic.


Yes, but I am not you, or you are not me.

I gave a draft a 3.4 on a scale of 4 and gave it an overall grade of a A based on my experience and my view of the overall draft.

You disagree with me. I disagree with you. We do not agree. Big deal.

But, let's be clear. I do not think the draft was perfect. The A grade that I gave represents excellence, not perfection.

This perfection that you speak of may be part of your grading system, but it is not part of mine.
I have never attended an educational institution that had in its grading system a standard of perfection or near perfection.

Truth be told, I do not think you have attended any educational institution where perfection was required to get a A.

Now, if you want to base your grades of Baalke's draft on grading scale that is not standard, that is your choice

Obviously there is some wiggle room between a 95 and a 100 but an A means you maxed out in the letter system. Maybe perfection was the wrong word to use but the idea that getting an A means you did "perfect" isn't hard to grasp. Excellent like you said is probably the better word.

I still think you are giving too much to this draft when better results can be had. You run the risk of over-inflating multiple classes on a repeating basis.

With some more use of Google I give you these to look over....

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-draft-top-five-draft-classes-san-francisco-152300441--nfl.html
http://sfo.scout.com/2/634437.html

Look at the best that this team has done in a grand scheme. Does this class deserve to be held to the standard of an A in this historical context?
  • buck
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Originally posted by jreff22:
Obviously there is some wiggle room between a 95 and a 100 but an A means you maxed out in the letter system. Maybe perfection was the wrong word to use but the idea that getting an A means you did "perfect" isn't hard to grasp. Excellent like you said is probably the better word.

I would counter by stating that getting an A means you did excellent work, and that should not be hard to grasp.

In fact, the use of perfection and near perfection within a grading system is hard to grasp.

What you continue to ignore is that perfection and near perfection are not used within standard grading systems in the the US.

Th University of North Florida, the university you attend, does equate an A with perfection. The UC-Davis whose letters grades and descriptors I listed in a prior post does not equate an A with perfection. I attended UC-Berkeley, which also does not equate a A with perfection.

This perfection that you reference is more a figment of your imagination, than it a standard used by educational institutions or educators.

Excellence is without doubt, not probably, a better word, precisely because it is actually used by schools across the country as the standard descriptor for an A. In other words, excellence actually corresponds to real world grading; perfection does not. Yes, perfection is the wrong word to use.


Originally posted by jreff22:

I still think you are giving too much to this draft when better results can be had. You run the risk of over-inflating multiple classes on a repeating basis.

With some more use of Google I give you these to look over....

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-draft-top-five-draft-classes-san-francisco-152300441--nfl.html
http://sfo.scout.com/2/634437.html

Look at the best that this team has done in a grand scheme. Does this class deserve to be held to the standard of an A in this historical context?

I am willing to talk about impact of grading in a broader historical or social context.

I am an educator. A major aspect of my work is teaching the students how to prepare for the verbal and analytical writing sections of the GRE and the GMAT. By the way, I live and work in Chile.

Before a student can enter these classes, I have to evaluate his or her English skills. If the standards that I set are too stringent, the students cannot take our classes to prepare for the GMAT or the GRE. In the real world, not being allowed to take those classes can seriously damage those students chances of advancing in their professions.

In my professional word, grading and standards of grading have serious consequences.

Another aspect of my work has been training English teachers throughout Chile on how to administer and to evaluate the oral component of the Michigan Exam for a Certificate of Competence in English (ECCE) and Exam for a Certificate of Proficiency in English (ECPE).

Again, these exam results have serious real world consequences. If the grading is too stringent, if it is not realistic, at the end of the day it is not fair. If the scores received are too low, (not fair) the test taker might not get a job or a promotion, and could in the future lose a job.

In contrast, grades that we give to this or any draft, do not have any real world impact; any impact outside our rather fanciful world of draft analysis.

Assume the worse. I am one of those west coast homers that you mentioned earlier in the thread. The grade that I give this draft is completely out of whack.

What exactly is the real world risk entailed in giving Baalke and the 49ers a grade that is an anomaly in the historical context of NFL drafts?

If my draft grade is slightly higher than yours, does it make any real difference.

I will check out the links you provided.

edit: The NFL Scout article was written in 2007, It could not possibly include the 2010 draft. It might be interesting to see how the author graded this draft.

The other article was written by Grant Cohen. Grant Cohen, and his father Lowell, have had a conflictive and rather contentious relationship with Harbaugh.
Grant's father is a cantankerous, old man, but by no means stupid. Grant does seem much less intelligent than his father, and it is rather clear that he has a bone to pick with the 49ers, and Harbaugh in particular. Grant and Lowell Cohen are hardly objective observers.

But, I will acknowledge that Harbaugh in many ways treats the media as idiots and has been rather terse and dismissive of the elder Cohen. Harbaugh sows what he reaps.
[ Edited by buck on May 8, 2013 at 2:03 PM ]