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Grade the 49ers 2010 Draft [3 years later]

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by jreff22:
oh look, SI has a grading scale for players
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/draft-2012/grading_system/


The absurdity in your idea isn't grading players...it's the fact that you judge the entire draft the same way that you would calculate a child's report card. CNN is not doing that. How you interpret what others are saying as criticism of anyone that assigns grades to individual players is beyond me.
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl-draft/173023-weighted-draft-grade-formula/

Doing the same thing with a more complex formula....but we both got the same value in the recent draft.

You may like the idea of cherry picking a draft and pulling out A+'s for everybody, I dont. When an evaluation is needed you dont ignore errors or problems because 30% of the evaluation was really good. How I calculate a total grade for my own observation really shouldn't be the focus of your discussion in this thread. You have this habit of ripping into people who show any criticism or critique of the draft. I dont see you saying anything other than the typical Baalke is a god, in Trent we trust blah blah blah b******t.

I am allowed to have my own god damn opinion and I dont need to hear your pretentious quibbling when I say something you object to. Here's an idea, come up with an original idea and post something about the draft that takes a stance. If you dont have the balls or the knowledge to formulate a few paragraphs of something that isn't cheer leading garbage, and might not be popular, keep silent or stop stalking my posts.

Maybe in your happy land, after hours of annoyance, people just agree with you to shut you up. I like the system I use and am open to suggestions to modifications like Amp provided a page back. If you want to have a discussion I will happily talk, if you insist on using the condescending tone I would prefer you go back to pestering MadDog.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Draftology:
A few questions/thoughts:

In your opinion has there ever been an A draft? I can't imagine a draft in which every player pans out, especially to the degree Davis, Iupati, and Bowman have. Let alone getting some solid contributors in Dixon and Williams (just because they aren't superstars doesn't mean they weren't good picks).

Also, in grading a draft, you cannot use a basic GPA grading system. The consequences of failing a class is much greater than missing on a draft pick. Other classes can only compensate so much. One F ruins an entire quarter, while missing on one pick can be compensated for by drafting a super star like Aaron Rodgers.

I understand your thinking, but it is flawed. You have to grade drafts relative to drafts in the past. It is extremely rare to get three pro bowlers in one draft. I really think it has only happened a handful of times. The only way I could fathom giving this draft anything but an A is because Kyle Williams is directly responsible for making us miss the Superbowl in 2011, but even that is flawed because Davis, Iupati, and Bowman are directly responsible for getting us there.

A perfect score of 4.0 would be impossible but a score of 3.5ish would put you into the realm of an A/A-.

While drafting a player can compensate for another...how long was it repeated that taking Alex over Rodgers killed this franchise? Or the constant reminder that Balmer was taken over Jackson. Sometimes that miss can kill a franchise....easiest example would be the failed first round QB's. If a team gets 2 probowlers in the middle rounds but fails miserably on its top pick which is a QB, no player can compensate for that immediate error.

We run a good chance of having the 2011 class have 3 probowlers....so it does happen. I would grade the 2011 draft higher on a numerical value chart for instance. Kap, Miller, and Aldon are all A's IMO.

Slapping an A on back to back drafts is great but for a more detailed approach giving something do differentiate between them is where the numbers come in.
Your second point kind of hurts your argument. Yes, picking Alex and Balmer over Rodgers and Jackson set the franchise back. Picking Mays didn't set us back. It's not like there was a stud safety available that would have been waiting in the wings. And it's not like picking Mays would have stopped us from picking a new safety the next year, because the new coaching staff clearly hated him. I know Gronk was available a couple of picks earlier, but you really cannot say the pick was bad because we should have traded up to pick a tight end when we already had Davis and Walker. That would have never happened.

Someone else already disproved your GPA grading scale, but getting one A player is obviously not better than getting two A players and three B players like your grading system suggests. It doesn't account for quantity, and that's what this draft has. A high quantity of quality players.

And yes I agree that the 2011 draft has a chance to be better just because quarterback and pass rush are arguably the two most important aspects of a football team.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
The grading-drafts-as-though-each-player-was-a-subject-on-a-child's-report-card thing is one of the most absurd things that I've read in NinerTalk or the Draft Forum in my 8 years on this board, and that is definitely saying something. Sweet black, baby Jesus.

I couldnt agree more. Absurd is exactly the right word for it and I think every single person in here sees that except for Jreff. Any grading system that could have 4 Hall of Fame players and 5 busts at the end of the draft and not considered an A+ isnt worth even discussing. ( using that as an example)

I think you may need to go re-read what was written and stop parroting LA and Amp.

OK.. Maybe I am wrong and you can help me out then. What would your grade on this be then:

Rd 1 Hall of Fame Player... Grade A
Rd 2 Hall of Fame Player Grade A
Rd 3 Hall of Fame Player Grade A
Rd 4 Total Bust - CUT Grade F
rd 5 Total Bust CUT Grade F
Rd 6 Total Bust CUT Grade F
Rd 7 Plays 1 year as sub Grade D

Just tell me what your draft grade would be for this hypothetical draft.
19 total score
28 max score/by 90%=25

25 max score=A
23 A-
21 B+
19 B
17 B-

or if using the 3.0 +/- system

25 A
22 A-
19 B+
16 B
13 B-

Total Grade of B or B+ for the entire draft

OK.. So... in your estimation a draft could net 3 all time Hall of Fame players and get a B grade. Thats all I needed to know.
What you need to know is an A means perfection....did you miss that idea in school? A's are the hardest grade to achieve and are only given out when everything is perfect or near perfect. 3 out of 7 is not perfect. What you fail to realize is that any draft that has 1 Hall of fame player would be argued by people like you thats its an A. Is it, is it really an A? If 1 gets an A what does 2 or 3 get? Are we going to start making up new super grades for a class like that?

You have yet to explain any grading matrix used by logic, you are looking at this through emotion and saying (like everybody else) look look an A+. If you are going to grade the whole thing you grade the whole thing, not you favorite parts.

So by your logic Nolan was a great GM because after all he drafted probowlers and he should get A's all over the place for his drafts right? Hell Sing wanted Iupati and Davis for his fysical running game....he helped pick them out, so he can draft A+ as well. Hell Andy Lee makes the probowl...I guess the 04 draft is an A+.

We have had at least 1 probowler from most drafts going back to at least 2003. Are you going to say the majority of all our drafts have been great..worth an A? If the almighty probowl/all pro pedestal you guys use to judge an A draft is used we always get A's. Does that sound like objective analysis to you?
Originally posted by jreff22:
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl-draft/173023-weighted-draft-grade-formula/

Doing the same thing with a more complex formula....but we both got the same value in the recent draft.

You may like the idea of cherry picking a draft and pulling out A+'s for everybody, I dont. When an evaluation is needed you dont ignore errors or problems because 30% of the evaluation was really good. How I calculate a total grade for my own observation really shouldn't be the focus of your discussion in this thread. You have this habit of ripping into people who show any criticism or critique of the draft. I dont see you saying anything other than the typical Baalke is a god, in Trent we trust blah blah blah b******t.

I am allowed to have my own god damn opinion and I dont need to hear your pretentious quibbling when I say something you object to. Here's an idea, come up with an original idea and post something about the draft that takes a stance. If you dont have the balls or the knowledge to formulate a few paragraphs of something that isn't cheer leading garbage, and might not be popular, keep silent or stop stalking my posts.

Maybe in your happy land, after hours of annoyance, people just agree with you to shut you up. I like the system I use and am open to suggestions to modifications like Amp provided a page back. If you want to have a discussion I will happily talk, if you insist on using the condescending tone I would prefer you go back to pestering MadDog.

Yes, you are entitled to your own god damn opinion. And since I am entitled to mine, I don't care if you "don't need to hear my pretentious quibbling" in response to your absurd grading system. You can zero in on me all you'd like, but I do believe everyone that's responded to your grading system thinks it's astoundingly bad. Of course you "like the system you use", because you're hopelessly stubborn on any topic where your point of view has been thoroughly picked apart. Once you decide on a belief on anything, you hold on to it forever, regardless of it's validity.

Sorry, I'm not going to come up with an original idea for evaluating the draft that "takes a stance". LOL at "having the balls" to come with such a thing. Such courage I would display! It just doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this is the sort of thing that should be evaluated against the mean (or "curved", to keep with the GPA theme), and that getting 3 guys who are amongst the best players at their positions + 3 more that are contributors in the NFL is a phenomenal yield relative to the rest of the league.

Lastly, I've never said that Baalke is God or that he's impervious to criticism. As it stands now, it appears that the 2012 was absolutely awful. As usual, you're grasping at straws while defending a silly position.
Originally posted by Draftology:
Your second point kind of hurts your argument. Yes, picking Alex and Balmer over Rodgers and Jackson set the franchise back. Picking Mays didn't set us back. It's not like there was a stud safety available that would have been waiting in the wings. And it's not like picking Mays would have stopped us from picking a new safety the next year, because the new coaching staff clearly hated him. I know Gronk was available a couple of picks earlier, but you really cannot say the pick was bad because we should have traded up to pick a tight end when we already had Davis and Walker. That would have never happened.

Someone else already disproved your GPA grading scale, but getting one A player is obviously not better than getting two A players and three B players like your grading system suggests. It doesn't account for quantity, and that's what this draft has. A high quantity of quality players.

And yes I agree that the 2011 draft has a chance to be better just because quarterback and pass rush are arguably the two most important aspects of a football team.
go to page 8 and see my response to Amp, I changed some stuff around to tweak the matrix.
Originally posted by jreff22:
What you need to know is an A means perfection....did you miss that idea in school? A's are the hardest grade to achieve and are only given out when everything is perfect or near perfect. 3 out of 7 is not perfect. What you fail to realize is that any draft that has 1 Hall of fame player would be argued by people like you thats its an A. Is it, is it really an A? If 1 gets an A what does 2 or 3 get? Are we going to start making up new super grades for a class like that?

You have yet to explain any grading matrix used by logic, you are looking at this through emotion and saying (like everybody else) look look an A+. If you are going to grade the whole thing you grade the whole thing, not you favorite parts.

So by your logic Nolan was a great GM because after all he drafted probowlers and he should get A's all over the place for his drafts right? Hell Sing wanted Iupati and Davis for his fysical running game....he helped pick them out, so he can draft A+ as well. Hell Andy Lee makes the probowl...I guess the 04 draft is an A+.

We have had at least 1 probowler from most drafts going back to at least 2003. Are you going to say the majority of all our drafts have been great..worth an A? If the almighty probowl/all pro pedestal you guys use to judge an A draft is used we always get A's. Does that sound like objective analysis to you?

We drafted THREE Pro Bowlers in 2010, lol.

Under your system it is virtually impossible to get an A. In school, it is not. Not even close. In fact, for some people that's just about all they get.
[ Edited by LA9erFan on Apr 30, 2013 at 11:39 AM ]
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by jreff22:
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl-draft/173023-weighted-draft-grade-formula/

Doing the same thing with a more complex formula....but we both got the same value in the recent draft.

You may like the idea of cherry picking a draft and pulling out A+'s for everybody, I dont. When an evaluation is needed you dont ignore errors or problems because 30% of the evaluation was really good. How I calculate a total grade for my own observation really shouldn't be the focus of your discussion in this thread. You have this habit of ripping into people who show any criticism or critique of the draft. I dont see you saying anything other than the typical Baalke is a god, in Trent we trust blah blah blah b******t.

I am allowed to have my own god damn opinion and I dont need to hear your pretentious quibbling when I say something you object to. Here's an idea, come up with an original idea and post something about the draft that takes a stance. If you dont have the balls or the knowledge to formulate a few paragraphs of something that isn't cheer leading garbage, and might not be popular, keep silent or stop stalking my posts.

Maybe in your happy land, after hours of annoyance, people just agree with you to shut you up. I like the system I use and am open to suggestions to modifications like Amp provided a page back. If you want to have a discussion I will happily talk, if you insist on using the condescending tone I would prefer you go back to pestering MadDog.

Yes, you are entitled to your own god damn opinion. And since I am entitled to mine, I don't care if you "don't need to hear my pretentious quibbling" in response to your absurd grading system. You can zero in on me all you'd like, but I do believe everyone that's responded to your grading system thinks it's astoundingly bad. Of course you "like the system you use", because you're hopelessly stubborn on any topic where your point of view has been thoroughly picked apart. Once you decide on a belief on anything, you hold on to it forever, regardless of it's validity.

Sorry, I'm not going to come up with an original idea for evaluating the draft that "takes a stance". LOL at "having the balls" to come with such a thing. Such courage I would display! It just doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that this is the sort of thing that should be evaluated against the mean (or "curved", to keep with the GPA theme), and that getting 3 guys who are amongst the best players at their positions + 3 more that are contributors in the NFL is a phenomenal yield relative to the rest of the league.

Lastly, I've never said that Baalke is God or that he's impervious to criticism. As it stands now, it appears that the 2012 was absolutely awful. As usual, you're grasping at straws while defending a silly position.
Use the researching skills you have been working and go back 2 pages and see my response to Amp. I have changed the "formula" to adjust for certain issues and a curve is given to show how an artificial inflation can be used in down years.

We have had pro bowlers drafted almost every year since 2003, you cant say every draft is an A because we got a great player. It defeats the purpose of analysis. 2 drafts with 2 pro bowlers a piece, how do you judge them? You need to look at the overall picture to see which grades higher. And unless we are giving out A++ and A+++ preschool grades, some form of objective analysis needs to be ascertained. Just like you think a draft with 2 probowlers is worth of an A, I think a draft of 3 pro bowlers is better than the first ...Maybe the draft with 2 is only a B+ and the draft with 3 is an A. Maybe this years class hits 4 probowlers, well it sure as hell beats the other 2, are you going to create a new grade, give an equal grade, or downgrade the others to reflect the new cap?
Originally posted by jreff22:
Use the researching skills you have been working and go back 2 pages and see my response to Amp. I have changed the "formula" to adjust for certain issues and a curve is given to show how an artificial inflation can be used in down years.

We have had pro bowlers drafted almost every year since 2003, you cant say every draft is an A because we got a great player. It defeats the purpose of analysis. 2 drafts with 2 pro bowlers a piece, how do you judge them? You need to look at the overall picture to see which grades higher. And unless we are giving out A++ and A+++ preschool grades, some form of objective analysis needs to be ascertained. Just like you think a draft with 2 probowlers is worth of an A, I think a draft of 3 pro bowlers is better than the first ...Maybe the draft with 2 is only a B+ and the draft with 3 is an A. Maybe this years class hits 4 probowlers, well it sure as hell beats the other 2, are you going to create a new grade, give an equal grade, or downgrade the others to reflect the new cap?

We drafted 3 Pro Bowlers in 2010 + 3 more contributors. Yes, that's an A draft. If we draft 4 this year, that's also an A, just like how a 98% is an A just as a 95% is.

Being that this is a competitive sport, it's so blatantly obvious that the proper way to grade a draft is relative to the rest of the league....because that's who you're competing against. The Niners easily had one of the best 3 drafts in a 32 team sport in 2010. That's an A. It's not that complicated. The fact that it's practically impossible to achieve an A in your grading system shows how absurd it is.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
We drafted THREE Pro Bowlers in 2010, lol.

Under your system it is virtually impossible to get an A. In school, it is not. Not even close. In fact, for some people that's just about all they get.

And I think we will see 3 from 2011 as well. We had 3 from 2007. I honestly think we could see 4 from this years class, no b******t. You cant max out your grade of A on 3 when 4 is possible and I think it happens.

Do we know how many probowlers have been drafted in one draft by one team?
Originally posted by jreff22:
And I think we will see 3 from 2011 as well. We had 3 from 2007. I honestly think we could see 4 from this years class, no b******t. You cant max out your grade of A on 3 when 4 is possible and I think it happens.

Do we know how many probowlers have been drafted in one draft by one team?

2007 and 2011 were also "A" drafts. Based on your school analogy, there are a whole bunch of A's that are given out. Heck, in grad school, you rarely see anything other than an A or a B. Of course you can give someone an A for 3 Pro Bowlers when 4 is possible, just as you can give a kid an A for a 95% and for a 98%.

It's a competition. In those years you couldn't name 3 other kids in our class that did better than we did.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Use the researching skills you have been working and go back 2 pages and see my response to Amp. I have changed the "formula" to adjust for certain issues and a curve is given to show how an artificial inflation can be used in down years.

We have had pro bowlers drafted almost every year since 2003, you cant say every draft is an A because we got a great player. It defeats the purpose of analysis. 2 drafts with 2 pro bowlers a piece, how do you judge them? You need to look at the overall picture to see which grades higher. And unless we are giving out A++ and A+++ preschool grades, some form of objective analysis needs to be ascertained. Just like you think a draft with 2 probowlers is worth of an A, I think a draft of 3 pro bowlers is better than the first ...Maybe the draft with 2 is only a B+ and the draft with 3 is an A. Maybe this years class hits 4 probowlers, well it sure as hell beats the other 2, are you going to create a new grade, give an equal grade, or downgrade the others to reflect the new cap?

We drafted 3 Pro Bowlers in 2010 + 3 more contributors. Yes, that's an A draft. If we draft 4 this year, that's also an A, just like how a 98% is an A just as a 95% is.

Being that this is a competitive sport, it's so blatantly obvious that the proper way to grade a draft is relative to the rest of the league....because that's who you're competing against. The Niners easily had one of the best 3 drafts in a 32 team sport in 2010. That's an A. It's not that complicated. The fact that it's practically impossible to achieve an A in your grading system shows how absurd it is.
So because its hard to have an A, you dont like it? That's what this boils down to. I would bet if you bump a thread about a class that had 2 probowlers you would see people say its an A draft. There is the problem, its all subjective unless you can create a numerical value on what it is and how do you get an A.

Yes its relative to grade against the league but I'm not going to grade the league, this isn't a job. What is easier and a better way to track Trent is by seeing how he does against himself year after year....and even against other 9er GM's.
It isn't "hard" to get an A in your system...it's virtually impossible. Only a couple of drafts in NFL history (if that) would qualify. For some reason that makes sense to you. To most of us, it's completely nonsensical.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by jreff22:
And I think we will see 3 from 2011 as well. We had 3 from 2007. I honestly think we could see 4 from this years class, no b******t. You cant max out your grade of A on 3 when 4 is possible and I think it happens.

Do we know how many probowlers have been drafted in one draft by one team?

2007 and 2011 were also "A" drafts. Based on your school analogy, there are a whole bunch of A's that are given out. Heck, in grad school, you rarely see anything other than an A or a B. Of course you can give someone an A for 3 Pro Bowlers when 4 is possible, just as you can give a kid an A for a 95% and for a 98%.

It's a competition. In those years you couldn't name 3 other kids in our class that did better than we did.
Than show where you would make the cutoff for each grade, criticizing my work without offering any ideas of recommendations is rather futile. And this shouldn't be about handing out A's, it should be about chasing them.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
The grading-drafts-as-though-each-player-was-a-subject-on-a-child's-report-card thing is one of the most absurd things that I've read in NinerTalk or the Draft Forum in my 8 years on this board, and that is definitely saying something. Sweet black, baby Jesus.

I couldnt agree more. Absurd is exactly the right word for it and I think every single person in here sees that except for Jreff. Any grading system that could have 4 Hall of Fame players and 5 busts at the end of the draft and not considered an A+ isnt worth even discussing. ( using that as an example)

I think you may need to go re-read what was written and stop parroting LA and Amp.

OK.. Maybe I am wrong and you can help me out then. What would your grade on this be then:

Rd 1 Hall of Fame Player... Grade A
Rd 2 Hall of Fame Player Grade A
Rd 3 Hall of Fame Player Grade A
Rd 4 Total Bust - CUT Grade F
rd 5 Total Bust CUT Grade F
Rd 6 Total Bust CUT Grade F
Rd 7 Plays 1 year as sub Grade D

Just tell me what your draft grade would be for this hypothetical draft.
19 total score
28 max score/by 90%=25

25 max score=A
23 A-
21 B+
19 B
17 B-

or if using the 3.0 +/- system

25 A
22 A-
19 B+
16 B
13 B-

Total Grade of B or B+ for the entire draft

OK.. So... in your estimation a draft could net 3 all time Hall of Fame players and get a B grade. Thats all I needed to know.
//thread

LOL Its ended for me. When a guy gives a draft a B grade that nets 3 Hall of Fame players you know you arent dealing with a rational thought process.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Than show where you would make the cutoff for each grade, criticizing my work without offering any ideas of recommendations is rather futile. And this shouldn't be about handing out A's, it should be about chasing them.

This should be graded on a curve. I've said that like 3 times now. Even more so than a classroom, this is a competition. Having a Top 3 draft class in a 32 team league is easily an A.