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MadDog's 2013 NFL Draft Review

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
I doubt it too. Cincy and the Giants evidently wanted him big time. Just wanted to see if this changed MD's opinion since Reid would not be a first rd pick then.

I wish one of these would have picked him and not us. To me, it is not about whether other teams valued his selection in this spot, it is simply my grading of him in this slot.

I have a problem with the whole "grading him in this slot." Value doesn't mean s**t when you can't meet said needs with impact players. You don't draft a secondary need before a first priority need when you can get an impact player for your biggest need. You target your needs and then you stack those needs with where the value is.

I believe our need at safety was much bigger than the team saying, "the value for this safety is too low so I will wait until the next round to see if we can find the best value at the position.

The team more than likely wanted a top rated safety rather than a 5th round Bacarri Rambo to bolster the back end since safety has a starter position available and the 49ers weren't counting on a slotting spot to determine our pick at that critical position.
[ Edited by SFL49ER on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:01 AM ]
  • buck
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Originally posted by iLL49er:
Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
As far as I know, none of the guys you read--Mayock, Kiper, McShay, Prisco, Miller--have access to coaches' tape. Or do they?

i believe they do, they have friends in the business who are scouts who provide them w/ tape.

MD will also tell you that if you as a normal joe schmo contacted a college for coaches tape some will provide it

I have questions.

Did MD really tell you some coaches will give coaches tape to people that they do not know?

No offense meant, but I find that hard to believe. Since he is reading this thread, I am sure that he can verify what you are saying.

Do you really believe that to be true?

Although, I will acknowledge that some is sufficiently vague enough to permit this statement to be true, I seriously doubt .that this happens enough to have any real impact on a normal person's ability to evaluate a draft class.
[ Edited by buck on Apr 30, 2013 at 5:29 AM ]
Like I said, I agree with MadDog 100% that B- is the best that I can give them. My personal take of the draft is as follows :

  • I like Eric Reid, but I thought trading up to 18th to get him was just a bit extreme who was more than likely doable in the 2nd round
  • Giving up the 34th pick to trade down to me was a huge mistake. Of course I had Justin Hunter being the BPA at 34th and true enough I was totally spot on. Just as we handed the pick over on a silver platter to the Titans, what happened next ? Well, the Titans wasted no time, but to pick exactly Justin Hunter at 34th right away without hesitation which clearly showed the value was there.
  • So, I thought OK if they didn't want to get a WR that early, at least get a top TE to replace Delanie. This was the juncture when I lost it, not only did they not pick Justin Hunter (which I would have been OK with if they had sorted out the TE spot), they also gave up Zach Ertz and went for Vance McDonald instead. What can I say ?! Even McDonald himself said he is hugely under-developed, that pretty much says it all.
  • In other words, in my mind we lost 2 top quality skill position impact playmakers in 1 single swoop if you will.
  • Then, we drafted 3 DL and 2 LBs which I thought was just way excessive. Sure, they wanted a DL, I will give them that, but 3 was just too much.
  • Then, I want to talk about the speculation factor. Both Tank and Lattimore are injured. Perhaps less for Tank, but Lattimore tore 3 of 4 ligaments in his knee, was it really necessary to take such a risk ?
  • As for Quinton Patton, I don't have much comment on him, he was rated high and projected to go relatively early, but he fell so I guess there might be some value there although he is far from being one of my favourite WRs.

So, anyway, I saw a lot of As and A+s in WZ which I felt were just way too high and probably less than objective. If the 9ers were worth an A+, I was wondering how the heck would I be able to grade quite a number of teams which drafted far better than us ? Just the top of my head, the Vikings and the Rams stood out big time. Both teams didn't mess around, they knew what they wanted which were highly ranked impact playmakers and weren't prepared to take risks to draft some unknowns from the lower rounds. So, they went about their business and got it done. My God, Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, Cordarrelle Patterson, Sharrif Floyld, Xavier Rhodes and Alex Ogletree, I think the names speak for themselves.

So, going into this draft when the 9ers were all hyped to make a major killing with 13 picks, I couldn't help but to walk away feeling somewhat dejected and disappointed. I think perhaps with the exception of Eric Reid and possibly Quinton Patton, we basically ended up with 2 injured players and a bunch of very raw and lowly ranked players. I mean with 13 picks, couldn't the 9ers have gone after at least a few impact playmakers like the Rams or Vikings for example ?

So, yes definitely a B- at the very most from me if I am trying to be polite.

I will close by saying watch out for the Rams this season. We already had issues with them last season, if Bradford lives out to what they think he is with all these explosive weapons, then is going to be hard for us to get a W.
  • buck
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Originally posted by Rascal:
  • Then, we drafted 3 DL and 2 LBs which I thought was just way excessive. Sure, they wanted a DL, I will give them that, but 3 was just too much.

I only see one linebacker, but Lemonier was drafted to be a linebacker, so that makes two linebackers.
But, if we count him as a linebacker, then we only have 2 defensive ends--Carradine and Dial.

You are right 3 DL and 2 LBS is excessive. You miscounted.

Eric Reid FS
Cornellius Carradine DE
Vance McDonald TE
Corey Lemonier DE
Quinton Patton WR
Marcus Lattimore RB
Quinton Dial DE
Nick Moody OLB
B.J. Daniels QB
Carter Bykowski
Marcus Cooper CB
[ Edited by buck on Apr 30, 2013 at 6:02 AM ]
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by iLL49er:
Originally posted by LieutKaffee:
As far as I know, none of the guys you read--Mayock, Kiper, McShay, Prisco, Miller--have access to coaches' tape. Or do they?

i believe they do, they have friends in the business who are scouts who provide them w/ tape.

MD will also tell you that if you as a normal joe schmo contacted a college for coaches tape some will provide it

I have questions.

Did MD really tell you some coaches will give coaches tape to people that they do not know?

No offense meant, but I find that hard to believe. Since he is reading this thread, I am sure that he can verify what you are saying.

Do you really believe that to be true?

Although, I will acknowledge that some is sufficiently vague enough to permit this statement to be true, I seriously doubt .that this happens enough to have any real impact on a normal person's ability to evaluate a draft class.

ask him, i've asked him on another thread if he has coaches tape and he said no but some colleges will send you coaches tape. from MD's mouth not mine. he can confirm he said this
MD you seem to be especially proud of the following:

-advocating for JJ Watt over Aldon Smith...the rub is you had no idea aldon smith would get 19 sacks in his 2nd season. Your projection of Aldon is no where near the dominant reality of aldon smith. Its too early to say JJ watt was the right pick...they are both pretty dominant, watt had a better year last year but they've only completed 2yrs and are both premier players so this boasting makes no sense

-you suggest you knew taylor mays would suck. sorry but everyone knew....

-did you call for us to draft kaepernick last year? did you advocate for navarro bowman 3yrs ago? did you find bruce miller? etc etc

you seem to be knocking baalke down which is ridiuculous
Originally posted by iLL49er:
MD you seem to be especially proud of the following:

-advocating for JJ Watt over Aldon Smith...the rub is you had no idea aldon smith would get 19 sacks in his 2nd season. Your projection of Aldon is no where near the dominant reality of aldon smith. Its too early to say JJ watt was the right pick...they are both pretty dominant, watt had a better year last year but they've only completed 2yrs and are both premier players so this boasting makes no sense

-you suggest you knew taylor mays would suck. sorry but everyone knew....

-did you call for us to draft kaepernick last year? did you advocate for navarro bowman 3yrs ago? did you find bruce miller? etc etc

you seem to be knocking baalke down which is ridiuculous
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/140843-taylor-mays-is-a-niner/search=taylor%20mays

you would be surprised
  • fryet
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MadDog, it would be fun if you posted in the grading of the 2010 draft and compare your picks to Baalke. I don't remember who you picked, and considering that Baalke did an A+ draft, chances are he beat you that year. But it would still be fun to see how well you did draft in 2010.

One other thing that would be interesting to see. We can all agree that the 49er organization has access to more information than a draftnik does. Yet, I wonder if more information at times actually causes poorer decisions since you may put more value in hidden information than what the player produced on the field. What does it say about the experts if a draftnik can beat them?
  • buck
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Originally posted by iLL49er:
ask him, i've asked him on another thread if he has coaches tape and he said no but some colleges will send you coaches tape. from MD's mouth not mine. he can confirm he said this

OK.

That sounds even stranger, but ....
Apparently you missed Jesse Williams has a degenerative knee disorder that removed him from several teams draft boards. One cannot draft in the second round that might not be playing beyond a few years.

It is easy to throw stones, and I think my draft was superior to yours maddog, especially if I could look in the proverbial crystal ball. But one cannot.

Reid was the niners number one safety on their board. He is a centerfielder that will not be flagged for helmet to helmet hits. Vaccarro was off the board they had to act.

Have you seen McDonalds tape?? He is ideal for the modified pistol offense the Niners are running. He ran reverses in college, lined up everywhere on the field. I am predicting right now that he will become a solid TE, making everyone forget about Delanie.

Lattimore- one of the top RB's on the board in the 4th round. A+. very little committed money, does not have to see the field in 2013.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by Rascal:
  • Then, we drafted 3 DL and 2 LBs which I thought was just way excessive. Sure, they wanted a DL, I will give them that, but 3 was just too much.

I only see one linebacker, but Lemonier was drafted to be a linebacker, so that makes two linebackers.
But, if we count him as a linebacker, then we only have 2 defensive ends--Carradine and Dial.

You are right 3 DL and 2 LBS is excessive. You miscounted.

Eric Reid FS
Cornellius Carradine DE
Vance McDonald TE
Corey Lemonier DE
Quinton Patton WR
Marcus Lattimore RB
Quinton Dial DE
Nick Moody OLB
B.J. Daniels QB
Carter Bykowski
Marcus Cooper CB


OK, I miscounted, thank you, but I still think is excessive.

But, the point is with 13 picks, we didn't exactly walk away from the draft like wow the 9ers cleaned up big time if you will which many had expected.

You look at the Rams and Vikings and you go whatttt !! A huge difference there without a doubt.
Originally posted by iLL49er:
MD you seem to be especially proud of the following:

-advocating for JJ Watt over Aldon Smith...the rub is you had no idea aldon smith would get 19 sacks in his 2nd season. Your projection of Aldon is no where near the dominant reality of aldon smith. Its too early to say JJ watt was the right pick...they are both pretty dominant, watt had a better year last year but they've only completed 2yrs and are both premier players so this boasting makes no sense

-you suggest you knew taylor mays would suck. sorry but everyone knew....

-did you call for us to draft kaepernick last year? did you advocate for navarro bowman 3yrs ago? did you find bruce miller? etc etc

you seem to be knocking baalke down which is ridiuculous

Actually the Watt over Smith pick is the biggest misconception out there. What he initially advocated was trading the 1st and 3rd (turned out to be Smith and Culliver) and whatever else it would have taken to move up for PP. So he was actually for bypassing both Smith AND Watt for PP.

And no, he was not a fan of the Bowman pick either. Said it wasnt good value for a player that was ill suited for the 3-4. Same analysis for Kaep but in terms of the offense.
[ Edited by Hoovtrain on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:17 AM ]
  • buck
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Originally posted by Rascal:
OK, I miscounted, thank you, but I still think is excessive.

But, the point is with 13 picks, we didn't exactly walk away from the draft like wow the 9ers cleaned up big time if you will which many had expected.

You look at the Rams and Vikings and you go whatttt !! A huge difference there without a doubt.

You welcome.

A few things.

Most people grading drafts are giving the 49ers very high scores. There is another thread with a listing of the various grades.
I have to get to work so I can not find it right now.

Much of your grade is based on the fact that the 49ers did not pick the players you wanted. They did not pick any of the players that I wanted either.
But, what I wanted or what you wanted is not very relevent to the grade they should get.

This year I am not attempting to grade the draft. I am going to wait and see how it turns out.
The discussions are interesting, seriously it takes two or three years to honestly evaluate a draft.

In three years, your grade might prove to be correct.
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Actually the Watt over Smith pick is the biggest misconception out there. What he initially advocated was trading the 1st and 3rd (turned out to be Smith and Culliver) and whatever else it would have taken to move up for PP. So he was actually for bypassing both Smith AND Watt for PP.

And no, he was not a fan of the Bowman pick either. Said it wasnt good value for a player that was ill suited for the 3-4. Same analysis for Kaep but in terms of the offense.

So basically he would have passed on 4 all pros and preferred a badass punt returner who can't cover crabtree.

Yeah that's out baalkeing for sure....
[ Edited by Young2Rice on Apr 30, 2013 at 7:36 AM ]
  • buck
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Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Actually the Watt over Smith pick is the biggest misconception out there. What he initially advocated was trading the 1st and 3rd (turned out to be Smith and Culliver) and whatever else it would have taken to move up for PP. So he was actually for bypassing both Smith AND Watt for PP.

And no, he was not a fan of the Bowman pick either. Said it wasnt good value for a player that was ill suited for the 3-4. Same analysis for Kaep but in terms of the offense.

MD gave Bowman a "D-" grade, one step above an F. Lower than the D, he gave to Mays.

Aldon Smith got a C grade, Kaepernick got a C, and Culliver got C+ and Miller an F.

MD is a history teacher, I hope he is better with his kids than he is with Baalke.