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We will not be drafting a NT high

Originally posted by SSF49er:
Dorsey will back up McDonald and Smith NINERS will draft JOHN JENKINS 6'6'' 358 true NT he can also play all 3 positions on the line

NINERS DRAFT

1 TE......ERTZ

2 NT.....JENKINS
2 S........SWEARINGER

3 WR.....D.ROGERS
3 CB......ALFORD

4 TRADE FOR 6th 2013 and 3 round 2014
4 OLB....WASHINGTON

5 WR/KR...A.SANDERS
5 TRADE 7th 2013 and 4th 2014

6 TRADE
6 TRADE BOTH PICKS FOR TOP PICK 6th round 2013
6 K.....HOPKINS

I would be happy with either Jenkins, or J. Williams.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Dorsey is a square peg in a round hole in a 34 defense. He is neither a NT, nor a DE. I'm betting he plays the end position, but he simply wasn't very impressive in that role for the Chiefs. Gives virtually nothing in rushing the passer, and few tackles for loss. Four career sacks.

To me, he is just a body to rotate, but nothing to be terribly excited about.

This. People are reading into this signing WAY too much. He's depth, backing up NT/DE. I highly doubt he affects the 49ers draft strategy in any single way.
Originally posted by 2Legit2Quit:
I know I didn't make my football knowledge clear, and I see why it's easy to assume I don't know that nickel defense isn't inextricably related to third down, and is simply a personnel grouping used when the other team runs a 3 receiver set. However, I'd like to ask you if you think it's normal that a team plays nickel defense 70% of the time (thus the NT is off the field) like the 9ers do?

The answer is no (this is from a recent ESPN article by Sando): "Boldin's arrival in San Francisco could mean more three-receiver sets for the 49ers. Including the playoffs last season, the 49ers used three-plus wide receiver sets 29.8 percent of the time when trailing last season, the lowest rate in the NFL (league average: 59.5 percent)." http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/63266/new-nfc-west-wrs-make-different-impacts

The Niners have force teams into a 10% jump in running 3 WR sets because they can't line up an run the ball against our base defense. Take a strong NT out of the equation, and suddenly the NT that only gets on the field for the base defense is out there much more often than he currently is and suddenly the importance of the NT become more apparent.

Secondly, I am not saying that we straight up need to use a first round or early pick on a NT. I simply said the search for a NT must continue. That can mean via FA, or in the draft. I'm just disagreeing with the general sentiment of the post that because we signed a guy who's never played NT in his entire career we can suddenly shut down the search for one of the most important position players on our entire defense.

And third, over the last 2 seasons Justin Smith has a COMBINED 10.5 sacks and Ray Mac a COMBINED 8 sacks. They're job on nickel defense is to collapse the pocket and free up Smith and Brooks. I personally think that Johnathan Hankins could serve that roll on nickel situations, while playing a good NT in the base D. I even think John Jenkins could do that. From every Senior Bowl report I read Jenkins couldn't be blocked as a pass rusher by a single player. Will that be the case in the NFL? I doubt it, but he could easily free up more 1 on 1 looks for Aldon Smith out of the nickel. Also, not saying a guy like Datone Jones couldn't do that either, but I don't buy your argument that some of the DTs in this draft that would play NT for us are simply going to be off the field every time we go into nickel. They don't need to have big sack numbers, they need to disrupt.

I wasn't implying you have a lack of football knowledge. We basically agree
There are still numerous options in free agency out there for the team, but most guys are temporary fill-in types, not long-term solutions. Guys probably getting a long look include Alan Branch of Seattle, and Sione Po'uha of the Jets, who might be the best of the bunch. Baalke has played Russian Roulette a few times and gotten away with it (the long wait before signing CB Carlos Rogers in 2011 actually paid off; but not signing Goldson to a long term deal two years ago might not in the end), but at some point, it is not going to go well.

The team is rarely aggressive early in free agency, so we will have to see which bargain bin guys we pick up.
With 5 picks in the 3 rounds I wouldn't be so sure.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Dorsey is a square peg in a round hole in a 34 defense. He is neither a NT, nor a DE. I'm betting he plays the end position, but he simply wasn't very impressive in that role for the Chiefs. Gives virtually nothing in rushing the passer, and few tackles for loss. Four career sacks.

To me, he is just a body to rotate, but nothing to be terribly excited about.

This. Rotational depth. Provides depth at both positions if absolutely necissary.

You may be right. RJF is not a big NT either (6'3" 295). I like the idea of having more athleticism and speed at NT who can shoot gaps and cause havoc, unless you have a Ngata who can do both. Star has the only chance of becoming a Ngata. That said, I don't think any other nose tackle in the draft is worth a first. That's all.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Dorsey is a square peg in a round hole in a 34 defense. He is neither a NT, nor a DE. I'm betting he plays the end position, but he simply wasn't very impressive in that role for the Chiefs. Gives virtually nothing in rushing the passer, and few tackles for loss. Four career sacks.

To me, he is just a body to rotate, but nothing to be terribly excited about.

This. People are reading into this signing WAY too much. He's depth, backing up NT/DE. I highly doubt he affects the 49ers draft strategy in any single way.

I'm pretty sure the same argument was made when we signed Justin Smith to play 3-4 DE. Square peg in a round hole, everyone said. He only turned out to be the best 3-4 DE in football until Watt came along. I'd give our FO the benefit of the doubt on this one. If they think he can play NT or DE in a 3-4, I wouldn't bet against it.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Mar 14, 2013 at 12:05 PM ]
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by 2Legit2Quit:
I know I didn't make my football knowledge clear, and I see why it's easy to assume I don't know that nickel defense isn't inextricably related to third down, and is simply a personnel grouping used when the other team runs a 3 receiver set. However, I'd like to ask you if you think it's normal that a team plays nickel defense 70% of the time (thus the NT is off the field) like the 9ers do?

The answer is no (this is from a recent ESPN article by Sando): "Boldin's arrival in San Francisco could mean more three-receiver sets for the 49ers. Including the playoffs last season, the 49ers used three-plus wide receiver sets 29.8 percent of the time when trailing last season, the lowest rate in the NFL (league average: 59.5 percent)." http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/63266/new-nfc-west-wrs-make-different-impacts

The Niners have force teams into a 10% jump in running 3 WR sets because they can't line up an run the ball against our base defense. Take a strong NT out of the equation, and suddenly the NT that only gets on the field for the base defense is out there much more often than he currently is and suddenly the importance of the NT become more apparent.

Secondly, I am not saying that we straight up need to use a first round or early pick on a NT. I simply said the search for a NT must continue. That can mean via FA, or in the draft. I'm just disagreeing with the general sentiment of the post that because we signed a guy who's never played NT in his entire career we can suddenly shut down the search for one of the most important position players on our entire defense.

And third, over the last 2 seasons Justin Smith has a COMBINED 10.5 sacks and Ray Mac a COMBINED 8 sacks. They're job on nickel defense is to collapse the pocket and free up Smith and Brooks. I personally think that Johnathan Hankins could serve that roll on nickel situations, while playing a good NT in the base D. I even think John Jenkins could do that. From every Senior Bowl report I read Jenkins couldn't be blocked as a pass rusher by a single player. Will that be the case in the NFL? I doubt it, but he could easily free up more 1 on 1 looks for Aldon Smith out of the nickel. Also, not saying a guy like Datone Jones couldn't do that either, but I don't buy your argument that some of the DTs in this draft that would play NT for us are simply going to be off the field every time we go into nickel. They don't need to have big sack numbers, they need to disrupt.

I wasn't implying you have a lack of football knowledge. We basically agree
I wasn't implying you have a lack of football knowledge. We basically agree in principle that the team needs a NT. I just don't think it's worth an early pick unless its a special player. I would fine with investing our 2nd round pick on any of the DT/NT but I just don't think its worth 31 and 34. We need a premier safety,wr, pass rushing de, and te. All these positions have premier talent at 31 and 34. We need to grab it when we can. You'd be surprised how many starting quality NT were pick beyond the 2nd round. Sopoago was a 4th round pick. The responsibilities for a 3-4 NT in our 1-gap defense is to penetrate the A and draw the guard over without being blocked out. I think that Montori Hughes(4th rounder) could do that just as well as Johnathan Hankins(1st round). I just don't the juice is worth the squeeze. The NT class is tricky because everyone has a conflicting analysis but I really don't see the motor and pass rushing moves in any of the NT that would qualify them for a 1st round grade. Hankins and Jenkins are completely out of shape and don't display the tenacity to consistently break up the center/guard. If they have to take plays off then they wont have the stamina to play the nickle either which means they're playing a reduced role. J Williams is intriguing because he has the strength and motor to play NT in the 3-4 and DT in the 4-3 but hes not a pocket presser so your basically getting a 3 down run stuffer. I don't think a run stuffer is worth an early pick. Maybe I'm wrong in my analysis but the issue is that in college these guys are the strongest, most explosive guys out there. Jenkins was able to just overpower people at the senior bowl for example. But that's not going to work in the NFL. You have to be a polished pass rusher if you want to beat penetrate the middle of the line. Maybe my requirements of a NT are just to critical but I really want our 1st 2 picks to produce.

Originally posted by 60sfan:
You may be right. RJF is not a big NT either (6'3" 295). I like the idea of having more athleticism and speed at NT who can shoot gaps and cause havoc, unless you have a Ngata who can do both. Star has the only chance of becoming a Ngata. That said, I don't think any other nose tackle in the draft is worth a first. That's all.

Even more than it not being worth a 1st I think picking up the pass rusher, wr, or te stands to have a greater effect on the teams ability to orchestrate a win. A safety and cb are more important for the long term sustainability of our defense. If a true game changer NT was available my opinon would be different but unfortunately Lotoulolei will be gone when we pick.
Looks like Dorsey at NT is what Harbaugh has in mind..............http://www.49erswebzone.com/news/goto.php?id=56403
Originally posted by 60sfan:
Looks like Dorsey at NT is what Harbaugh has in mind..............http://www.49erswebzone.com/news/goto.php?id=56403

It looks like Harbaugh likes forcing square pegs into round holes.
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by 60sfan:
Looks like Dorsey at NT is what Harbaugh has in mind..............http://www.49erswebzone.com/news/goto.php?id=56403

It looks like Harbaugh likes forcing square pegs into round holes.

Looks like its working so far.
I guess our work is done here. Mods, shut her down.
  • buck
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The basic premise of this thread is that "We will not be drafting a NT high."

The original poster argues, "With Dorsey and Boldin on board and inking Ian Williams to an extension, looks like we will focus our high draft choices on DE and DB's."

I am not sure what he means by high, but in my book high means definitely means first and second round, and probably includes the third round.

Dorsey has never played 3-4 nose tackle. When KC ran the 3-4, Dorsey played defensive end.
Ian Williams has been extended, but that does not mean that he should be considered our starting nose tackle.

We do not have a starting nose tackle. We do not have a starting Free Safety. We do not have a kicker.

The team must acquire a starting nose tackle, a starting free safety, and a quality kicker.

The team has one quality starting DE, and one excellent starting DE.
We have a quality TE. The team has three decent corner backs. We have only two quality wide receivers.

We need to acquire players that have the potential to become starters in the near future at defensive end, strong safety, corner back, wide receiver.

We seriously need a swing tackle,a 2nd tight end, depth at outside linebacker, and maybe a third quarter back.

In the draft we need to select the best player available at a position of need.

If the best player available in the first is a DE, the we should draft a DE. If it is a wide receiver, then we should draft a WR.

The key is to remember that the draft is about selecting players.

The team can not ignore positional need, but skipping a quality player and filling a need with a lesser player it not a good way to draft.

The draft is also not about drafting speed (ask the Oakland Raiders) or size. It is about getting quality players.

So, if the best available player available at #31 is the midget (Mighty Mouse does sound better) Tavon Austin, we should draft him.

Conversely, if the best player available at #31 is the Monstar, Jessie Williams, we should draft him.

In summary, the contention of the original poster is grievously flawed.

But, hey that is just my opinion.
[ Edited by buck on Mar 15, 2013 at 2:15 AM ]
Originally posted by buck:
The basic premise of this thread is that "We will not be drafting a NT high."

The original poster argues, "With Dorsey and Boldin on board and inking Ian Williams to an extension, looks like we will focus our high draft choices on DE and DB's."

I am not sure what he means by high, but in my book high means definitely means first and second round, and probably includes the third round.

Dorsey has never played 3-4 nose tackle. When KC ran the 3-4, Dorsey played defensive end.
Ian Williams has been extended, but that does not mean that he should be considered our starting nose tackle.

We do not have a starting nose tackle. We do not have a starting Free Safety. We do not have a kicker.

The team must acquire a starting nose tackle, a starting free safety, and a quality kicker.

The team has one quality starting DE, and one excellent starting DE.
We have a quality TE. The team has three decent corner backs. We have only two quality wide receivers.

We need to acquire players that have the potential to become starters in the near future at defensive end, strong safety, corner back, wide receiver.

We seriously need a swing tackle,a 2nd tight end, depth at outside linebacker, and maybe a third quarter back.

In the draft we need to select the best player available at a position of need.

If the best player available in the first is a DE, the we should draft a DE. If it is a wide receiver, then we should draft a WR.

The key is to remember that the draft is about selecting players.

The team can not ignore positional need, but skipping a quality player and filling a need with a lesser player it not a good way to draft.

The draft is also not about drafting speed (ask the Oakland Raiders) or size. It is about getting quality players.

So, if the best available player available at #31 is the midget (Mighty Mouse does sound better) Tavon Austin, we should draft him.

Conversely, if the best player available at #31 is the Monstar, Jessie Williams, we should draft him.

In summary, the contention of the original poster is grievously flawed.

But, hey that is just my opinion.
It all depends what they do for the rest of FA. I think they're waiting out the pass rusher market and will be picking them up next weak for cheap.

I don't see us staying put at #31 and #34 either. Baalke's plan was to have this year, year 3 under harbaugh, be set up as it is with all these draft picks. It's not a coincidence, adn they're not drafting for depth. They'll either trade up to get an impact safety or Dlineman, or possibly even trade back into next years draft.

No early TE, CB, WR will be taken even if they're the so called "best player available" because they'll be wheeling and dealing picks - especially if the Nnamdi/Woodson/Reed/Delmas things go through. Maybe they even dont get a "top" safety and take Baccari Rambo in the third if they can straighten out his drug problems.

Tavon Austin is just another Jenkins, LMJ, Kyle Williams type player. Is he better? maybe but there's no room for him realistically. Kyle Williams will shine this year, that's my prediction.

Long story short, this draft was set up to provide impact players - they won't be taking "best player availabe" because they're gonna use they're plethora of draft picks to get who they want.
Originally posted by buck:
The basic premise of this thread is that "We will not be drafting a NT high."

The original poster argues, "With Dorsey and Boldin on board and inking Ian Williams to an extension, looks like we will focus our high draft choices on DE and DB's."

I am not sure what he means by high, but in my book high means definitely means first and second round, and probably includes the third round.

Dorsey has never played 3-4 nose tackle. When KC ran the 3-4, Dorsey played defensive end.
Ian Williams has been extended, but that does not mean that he should be considered our starting nose tackle.

We do not have a starting nose tackle. We do not have a starting Free Safety. We do not have a kicker.

The team must acquire a starting nose tackle, a starting free safety, and a quality kicker.

The team has one quality starting DE, and one excellent starting DE.
We have a quality TE. The team has three decent corner backs. We have only two quality wide receivers.
We need to acquire players that have the potential to become starters in the near future at defensive end, strong safety, corner back, wide receiver.

We seriously need a swing tackle,a 2nd tight end, depth at outside linebacker, and maybe a third quarter back.

In the draft we need to select the best player available at a position of need.

If the best player available in the first is a DE, the we should draft a DE. If it is a wide receiver, then we should draft a WR.

The key is to remember that the draft is about selecting players.

The team can not ignore positional need, but skipping a quality player and filling a need with a lesser player it not a good way to draft.

The draft is also not about drafting speed (ask the Oakland Raiders) or size. It is about getting quality players.

So, if the best available player available at #31 is the midget (Mighty Mouse does sound better) Tavon Austin, we should draft him.

Conversely, if the best player available at #31 is the Monstar, Jessie Williams, we should draft him.

In summary, the contention of the original poster is grievously flawed.

But, hey that is just my opinion.

I disagree with taking a wide receiver first, including Tavon. This, draft is pretty deep all the way into the 3rd round. It is my opinion that Balke/Harbaugh feel that a good NT can be made and will not select a NT in the 1st or 2nd round, probably not until the 4th. Star is the only exception because he will be a beast anywhere on the line and he should be good from the get go.
[ Edited by 60sfan on Mar 15, 2013 at 11:57 AM ]