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We will not be drafting a NT high

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by eonblue:
I thinks its important to note that during Baalkes tenure he hasn't drafted one NT. Ian Williams was an UDFA in 2011. With Sopoago being the only reliable NT it seeks that if he valued the spot highly he would've picked up one to develop in the late rounds. Maybe this year is an exception but with the secondary becoming a glaring need, the lack of pass rush, de depth, and an uncertain wr corp I just don't see it being priority we address.early.

Or maybe we had other needs in early rounds, and traditionally late round NT's arent worth even a late round pick.

Any team that runs a 3-4 system understands the value of a NT.

I'm surprised the 49ers were never linked to Terrance Knighton or Sammie Lee Hill given the importance of an NT to our system.
Originally posted by FunkNinerFlex:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Co-signed. This whole idea that "we don't need an NT" in this defense is ridiculously short-sighted. The biggest issue is that the 49ers have had a bunch of poverty-level NT's for awhile now but have been addressing other needs on the defense. I'd be shocked to not see them take an NT some time in the first 3 rounds this year. If you have a quality NT, not only does it make stuffing the run easier, but it takes the pressure off the rest of the defensive line as a team has to dedicate multiple blockers to holding up against the NT, meaning somewhere in that defense, someone is likely going to break free and either stuff the runner behind the line of scrimmage or get the quarterback moving out of the pocket or put him on his ass.

Soap played terrible this past season, he drastically regressed from 2011, and its not shocking to see that his snaps declined as well. Part of it was the 49ers playing in the nickel, but the other part of it is that he was a handicap out on the field quite a lot. Whether he was out there or not, teams would run up the middle against the 49ers so I guess Fangio said "f**k it", might as well keep an extra defensive back out there.

If they can bring in a guy like Jesse Williams or Brandon Williams, a talented, athletic young player that is aggressive and can take on multiple blockers, it will make the defense that much more effective, particularly the linebackers. Currently the only guy on the 49ers DL who requires multiple blockers is Justin Smith, a one-gap NT like Williams sure isn't going to do it, so adding and developing a draft pick at NT would be tremendous for this team.


In a 3-4 defense, the most important position is the NT. They don't have the stats, but they are what makes the defense work. Even a team like New England that runs a hybrid system has had a highly talented NT for a long time. If you don't have a good NT, you might as well say f**k it and go run a 4-3 system for what its worth.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I agree with Parcells when he stated that the most important position in a 3-4 D is the pass rushing OLB. Followed by the NT.

The two go hand in hand.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by tatdwolf49:
Originally posted by 60sfan:
Originally posted by tatdwolf49:
Yes lets draft old rookie hunt he'll need to be replaced in 5 yrs probably taken two yrs to develop ugh such a waste of a pick

Pierce Holt was a 26 year old rookie DE for the niners who played very effectively till he was 33. Even had 10 1/2 sacks in his 2nd year. Older rookies learn faster and live a cleaner life generally. Hunt is a serious athelete who is mature. Should be effective pretty quick.

A different time different kinda kids now of days ...

If Hunt is a kid, he is not too old, is he?

I wouldn't say Hunt is too old to draft, but it certainly has to be considered a slight knock. Not all DLineman are Justin Smith and can dominate at 32-33. Not saying Hunt can't, but it definitely can't be considered a positive that if you draft a guy in the 1st/early 2nd that when he's ready for an extension he will be 29.

Regardless, I'm not high on Hunt as a first round prospect regardless of age. He's a talent, but a talent that is better deserving of a late 2nd/3rd round selection. Wouldn't mind seeing him come off the board with our second 2nd rounder, due to his immense upside alone. Plus he's a special teams demon and that would give him fair value even if he isn't ready to play a large role in DLine rotation straight out of the gate.
Originally posted by FunkNinerFlex:
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I agree with Parcells when he stated that the most important position in a 3-4 D is the pass rushing OLB. Followed by the NT.

That's entirely reasonable and I guess you could debate that, but those are definitely the two most key positions in a 3-4...otherwise what the hell is the point? Go to a 4-3 otherwise. If you don't have a true talented space-eating NT, you're making things difficult on the rest of the defense, having the linebackers deal with blockers more frequently, get gashed up the middle more frequently, it requires your DE's to be utter beasts to make up for the slack in the middle. I think Justin, Aldon, Patrick, NaVorro, all those guys could be significantly more effective with a talented NT that continually put pressure on the middle of the offensive line and and this draft, I truly feel that guys like Jesse Williams and Brandon Williams can do just that.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Mar 14, 2013 at 12:18 AM ]
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
I dont know what goes through some of your heads.

So a 3-4 NT, is not worthy of more than a 4th round pick, to a 3-4 team that currenty has no capable NT?

NT is the single current biggest need on this team. Period.

If we had a Ngata type player this would be the best front 7 in football no question.

NT is a huge need, and have any of you considered the reason we were playing the hybrid is because our NT was struggleing and we lost Cowboy for some time, etc. etc.

Willis spent some snaps on te sideline as well, maybe we dont need him either.....

NT is a huge need. I would be etremely disapointed if we didnt snag one with our first two pics if one is sitting there worth takeing, and its a solid NT class.

Dorsey was signed to a two year deal, and te "compete" comments tell me the club is bringing him in to do exactly that, competition and depth. I highly doubt they plan on rolling with his as the sure starter at NT. to do so would be extremely wishful thinking.

Hopefully your disappointed come draft day then. I don't think Dorsey was signed to play NT. I think he plays run downs and keep Smith and McDonald fresh for.passing downs. Ian Williams was extended to play NT. The NT plays a minimal role in our defense. We take.the NT out.in the nickle because he loses his functionality if the oppoenent is not rushing. Theres not a NT in this draft that can rush better than Smith or McDonald. There's not a NT in this draft that can even legitimately rush. if there was then they would've had the stats and video to show it. Ive extensively watched Hankins, Jenkins, J will and B Will. They may get some "push" against collegw kids but throwing.their weight around isnt going.to work in the pros. Im not gonna get started on their conditioning but they wouldn't last 3 downs. Sorry but 2 down NT don't warrant an early pick becaus you can get the se function out of a playe the 3rd on. Waste of a pick

You understand that getting into the nickel requires playing well on first and second downs. The reason the Niners are in nickel so much is an exact consequence of our ability to limit the run game on first and second downs. The teams that have found success against the Niners - namely Seattle - have rushed the ball effectively against us. A NT that can stop the running game is as important, if not more important than an interior lineman who can rush the passer on third downs. Those opportunities to pin your ears back and rush come from getting the job done on the running downs, something the Niners were struggling with more and more as last season progressed (but fixed in the playoffs).

We need to focus on one thing: winning the Super Bowl. To get to the SB you have to make it to the playoffs. Easiest way to the playoffs is to win the division. Winning the division means beating Seattle. Beating Seattle means stopping Lynch and the run game. Stopping the run game requires strong NT play. No, Ian Williams/Glen Dorsey cannot be unequivocally trusted to man the nose for the 49ers. Not saying either player isn't capable at all, but we haven't seen it, so we can't assume that we have found the answer - the search for a NT must continue.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
That's the entirely reasonable and I guess you could debate that, but those are definitely the two most key positions in a 3-4...otherwise what the hell is the point? Go to a 4-3 otherwise. If you don't have a true talented space-eating NT, you're making things difficult on the rest of the defense, having the linebackers deal with blockers more frequently, get gashed up the middle more frequently, it requires your DE's to be utter beasts to make up for the slack in the middle. I think Justin, Aldon, Patrick, NaVorro, all those guys could be significantly more effective with a talented NT that continually put pressure on the middle of the offensive line and and this draft, I truly feel that guys like Jesse Williams and Brandon Williams can do just that.
True. Sop was continually blocked one one one and Justin was absorbing the double teams. I believe this is why McDonald wasn't as effective down the stretch this year also.
Side note: McDonald is a bargain for what we have him for the next 4 years.
Originally posted by 2Legit2Quit:
You understand that getting into the nickel requires playing well on first and second downs. The reason the Niners are in nickel so much is an exact consequence of our ability to limit the run game on first and second downs. The teams that have found success against the Niners - namely Seattle - have rushed the ball effectively against us. A NT that can stop the running game is as important, if not more important than an interior lineman who can rush the passer on third downs. Those opportunities to pin your ears back and rush come from getting the job done on the running downs, something the Niners were struggling with more and more as last season progressed (but fixed in the playoffs).

We need to focus on one thing: winning the Super Bowl. To get to the SB you have to make it to the playoffs. Easiest way to the playoffs is to win the division. Winning the division means beating Seattle. Beating Seattle means stopping Lynch and the run game. Stopping the run game requires strong NT play. No, Ian Williams/Glen Dorsey cannot be unequivocally trusted to man the nose for the 49ers. Not saying either player isn't capable at all, but we haven't seen it, so we can't assume that we have found the answer - the search for a NT must continue.

AND YOU HONESTLY THINK A ROOKIE CAN JUST STEP IN AND START DOMINATING AGAINST NFL OLINES? You guys act like drafting a NT with our 1st pick is like flipping.a switch that turns on your run defense. Your post has some inconsistencies. One the nickle has nothing to do with 1st or 2nd down. Your taking a out your least pass rushingest linemen to add another DB. It doesn't have to be 3rd down for that to happen. Its all black and white with you guys. The funny thing about this debate is that I agree.with you that we need NT. I water at the mouth when I think about how nasty are defense would be with pocket collapsing NT but the defense is more than one man. You can't argue.that Sopoago was the.reason for our declining run d. He only played 30% of the snaps anyways so his accountability is no where near as high as people want to make it. Lol the Hawks beat us becauae we had a soft offense. Davis was knocked out. Rio busted up his leg. You can draft all the NT you want but it's not going to help you against the Hawks. A strong and fast WR would or a tall TE. Saying NT is the most IMPORTANT position of need on the team makes me laugh. The NT poaition is important but the effect of a quality pass rusher, route runner. and free safety carries so much more value. I think B Will, J Will, Hankins, or Jenkins would make it to our 2nd and I would pick them. I would trade up even to target him but I'm not gonna pick him unless the value is there and even than I want us to draft the FS we want, a top WR, or a pass rushing DE. Those positions carry much more.value.than a run.stuffer.
[ Edited by eonblue on Mar 14, 2013 at 7:03 AM ]
Originally posted by eonblue:
AND YOU HONESTLY THINK A ROOKIE CAN JUST STEP IN AND START DOMINATING AGAINST NFL OLINES? You guys act like drafting a NT with our 1st pick is like flipping.a switch that turns on your run defense. Your post has some inconsistencies. One the nickle has nothing to do with 1st or 2nd down. Your taking a out your least pass rushingest linemen to add another DB. It doesn't have to be 3rd down for that to happen. Its all black and white with you guys. The funny thing about this debate is that I agree.with you that we need NT. I water at the mouth when I think about how nasty are defense would be with pocket collapsing NT but the defense is more than one man. You can't argue.that Sopoago was the.reason for our declining run d. He only played 30% of the snaps anyways so his accountability is no where near as high as people want to make it. Lol the Hawks beat us becauae we had a soft offense. Davis was knocked out. Rio busted up his leg. You can draft all the NT you want but it's not going to help you against the Hawks. A strong and fast WR would or a tall TE. Saying NT is the most IMPORTANT position of need on the team makes me laugh. The NT poaition is important but the effect of a quality pass rusher, route runner. and free safety carries so much more value. I think B Will, J Will, Hankins, or Jenkins would make it to our 2nd and I would pick them. I would trade up even to target him but I'm not gonna pick him unless the value is there and even than I want us to draft the FS we want, a top WR, or a pass rushing DE. Those positions carry much more.value.than a run.stuffer.

To get the better of the Seahawks we need a fast WR, a pass rushing DE and a NT. They are all as vitally important as each other and our first 3 picks should go for the BPA in these positions. There we all agree
Dorsey is a square peg in a round hole in a 34 defense. He is neither a NT, nor a DE. I'm betting he plays the end position, but he simply wasn't very impressive in that role for the Chiefs. Gives virtually nothing in rushing the passer, and few tackles for loss. Four career sacks.

To me, he is just a body to rotate, but nothing to be terribly excited about.
Dorsey will back up McDonald and Smith NINERS will draft JOHN JENKINS 6'6'' 358 true NT he can also play all 3 positions on the line

NINERS DRAFT

1 TE......ERTZ

2 NT.....JENKINS
2 S........SWEARINGER

3 WR.....D.ROGERS
3 CB......ALFORD

4 TRADE FOR 6th 2013 and 3 round 2014
4 OLB....WASHINGTON

5 WR/KR...A.SANDERS
5 TRADE 7th 2013 and 4th 2014

6 TRADE
6 TRADE BOTH PICKS FOR TOP PICK 6th round 2013
6 K.....HOPKINS
The only NT worth taking high is Star Lotulelei, providing his heart is okay. He can push the pocket big, demand double teams and play during nickel coverage. The others are not worth a 1st round pick. It's time to get a pocket pushing DE with an outside move.
FA......SITUATIONAL PASS RUSHER....

ABRAHAM
FREENEY
SEYMOUR (then you can rush the smith brothers on the outside

SMITH,DORSEY,SEYMOUR,SMITH THAT WOULD BE A RUSH
Originally posted by blm7754:
Originally posted by 60sfan:
With Dorsey and Boldin on board and inking Ian Williams to an extension, looks like we will focus our high draft choices on DE and DB's. Might even trade up to get someone. Any thoughts? How does it change your mocks?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I KNEW another one of these stupid threads would pop up..... just like the "we don't need to draft a WR high because we got Boldin".

b******t.

Baalke doesn't let FA influence the draft. He fills temporary gaps with FAs while drafting the best player available. Dorsey and Boldin are both short term stop-gaps so that we can field an experienced team without relying on rookies. Brilliant strategy.
Exactly. BPA will be the way they go regardless of position. Plus there is no guarantee Dorsey and Williams work out. you keep bringing in younger guys at all positions for competition. And with this now being a winning franchise, other teams are going to swoop in and overpay our guys to join there teams. You have to be ready with cheaper back ups on deck.
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by 2Legit2Quit:
You understand that getting into the nickel requires playing well on first and second downs. The reason the Niners are in nickel so much is an exact consequence of our ability to limit the run game on first and second downs. The teams that have found success against the Niners - namely Seattle - have rushed the ball effectively against us. A NT that can stop the running game is as important, if not more important than an interior lineman who can rush the passer on third downs. Those opportunities to pin your ears back and rush come from getting the job done on the running downs, something the Niners were struggling with more and more as last season progressed (but fixed in the playoffs).

We need to focus on one thing: winning the Super Bowl. To get to the SB you have to make it to the playoffs. Easiest way to the playoffs is to win the division. Winning the division means beating Seattle. Beating Seattle means stopping Lynch and the run game. Stopping the run game requires strong NT play. No, Ian Williams/Glen Dorsey cannot be unequivocally trusted to man the nose for the 49ers. Not saying either player isn't capable at all, but we haven't seen it, so we can't assume that we have found the answer - the search for a NT must continue.

AND YOU HONESTLY THINK A ROOKIE CAN JUST STEP IN AND START DOMINATING AGAINST NFL OLINES? You guys act like drafting a NT with our 1st pick is like flipping.a switch that turns on your run defense. Your post has some inconsistencies. One the nickle has nothing to do with 1st or 2nd down. Your taking a out your least pass rushingest linemen to add another DB. It doesn't have to be 3rd down for that to happen. Its all black and white with you guys. The funny thing about this debate is that I agree.with you that we need NT. I water at the mouth when I think about how nasty are defense would be with pocket collapsing NT but the defense is more than one man. You can't argue.that Sopoago was the.reason for our declining run d. He only played 30% of the snaps anyways so his accountability is no where near as high as people want to make it. Lol the Hawks beat us becauae we had a soft offense. Davis was knocked out. Rio busted up his leg. You can draft all the NT you want but it's not going to help you against the Hawks. A strong and fast WR would or a tall TE. Saying NT is the most IMPORTANT position of need on the team makes me laugh. The NT poaition is important but the effect of a quality pass rusher, route runner. and free safety carries so much more value. I think B Will, J Will, Hankins, or Jenkins would make it to our 2nd and I would pick them. I would trade up even to target him but I'm not gonna pick him unless the value is there and even than I want us to draft the FS we want, a top WR, or a pass rushing DE. Those positions carry much more.value.than a run.stuffer.

I know I didn't make my football knowledge clear, and I see why it's easy to assume I don't know that nickel defense isn't inextricably related to third down, and is simply a personnel grouping used when the other team runs a 3 receiver set. However, I'd like to ask you if you think it's normal that a team plays nickel defense 70% of the time (thus the NT is off the field) like the 9ers do?

The answer is no (this is from a recent ESPN article by Sando): "Boldin's arrival in San Francisco could mean more three-receiver sets for the 49ers. Including the playoffs last season, the 49ers used three-plus wide receiver sets 29.8 percent of the time when trailing last season, the lowest rate in the NFL (league average: 59.5 percent)." http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/63266/new-nfc-west-wrs-make-different-impacts

The Niners have force teams into a 10% jump in running 3 WR sets because they can't line up an run the ball against our base defense. Take a strong NT out of the equation, and suddenly the NT that only gets on the field for the base defense is out there much more often than he currently is and suddenly the importance of the NT become more apparent.

Secondly, I am not saying that we straight up need to use a first round or early pick on a NT. I simply said the search for a NT must continue. That can mean via FA, or in the draft. I'm just disagreeing with the general sentiment of the post that because we signed a guy who's never played NT in his entire career we can suddenly shut down the search for one of the most important position players on our entire defense.

And third, over the last 2 seasons Justin Smith has a COMBINED 10.5 sacks and Ray Mac a COMBINED 8 sacks. They're job on nickel defense is to collapse the pocket and free up Smith and Brooks. I personally think that Johnathan Hankins could serve that roll on nickel situations, while playing a good NT in the base D. I even think John Jenkins could do that. From every Senior Bowl report I read Jenkins couldn't be blocked as a pass rusher by a single player. Will that be the case in the NFL? I doubt it, but he could easily free up more 1 on 1 looks for Aldon Smith out of the nickel. Also, not saying a guy like Datone Jones couldn't do that either, but I don't buy your argument that some of the DTs in this draft that would play NT for us are simply going to be off the field every time we go into nickel. They don't need to have big sack numbers, they need to disrupt.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Dorsey is a square peg in a round hole in a 34 defense. He is neither a NT, nor a DE. I'm betting he plays the end position, but he simply wasn't very impressive in that role for the Chiefs. Gives virtually nothing in rushing the passer, and few tackles for loss. Four career sacks.

To me, he is just a body to rotate, but nothing to be terribly excited about.

This. Rotational depth. Provides depth at both positions if absolutely necissary.
[ Edited by IdahoNiner on Mar 14, 2013 at 10:18 AM ]