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MadDog's Niners Draft Grade and Analysis

Originally posted by AmpLee:
It's not even close. Not too mention, MD was clamoring for us to pick Gabbert, not Watt. Quite revisionist if you ask me. In fact, Gabbert was MD's 4 best player on the Niners board while Watt was 8th. MD likes to take credit for calling Watt's greatness, but he had quite a few guys ahead of him.

The above quote was what you wrote a few days ago to begin the conversation. Let's go through it step by step.

"MD was clamoring for us to pick Gabbert, not Watt"- False. My pick was Watt as shown in the draft redo thread and also on my board come draft day. You must be the only person in the world to not get this point, as people have been complimenting my selection of Watt for two years plus.

"Quite revisionist if you ask me"- The translation is that I lied about the selection of Watt. This was not true then, and not true now. You accused me of being a liar, and I don't lie.

"In fact, Gabbert was MD's 4 best player on the Niners board while Watt was 8th"- I have already pointed our earlier in this thread, and showed the link, that this was my board on January 3, well before the draft, and showed an April thread where I have Watt before Gabbert and had Watt at number 5 on my board, which is where Watt would have fallen on my draf when the team was on the clock.

"MD likes to take credit for calling Watt's greatness, but he had a few guys ahead of him"- I had him at 5, after Green, Peterson, Miller, and Dareus. The first three are ProBowlers, and Dareus is a solid. Name someone who had Watt higher on their board than I did. Name someone who had Watt as the selection. Few to none.

Review: you enter the board and take a number of cheap shots, full of lies and distortion. I then have to spend my time to reveal one by one the lies you presented, by digging through the board and posting links showing what I wrote. In the end, you are shocked that I would actually be offended. How would you feel if someone came onto the board and posted a series of lies and distortions about your previous posts and thoughts? Have you no shame,
Originally posted by kidash98:
Been in this road before with MD.

I recall having an animated debate with him and all I asked was for him to say he was wrong about a particular pick (been so long I don't even remember who the player was). Back to the present and how many years later, I still have not seen him admit he was wrong.

Good luck to those waiting for him to say he was wrong. May he have said, "I am a man enough to admit when I am wrong," you will never see it written (typed/posted) by him.

- 98

This is foolishness and you know it. As a mod you should know better. This "you will never see it written by him" is another lying cheap shot. I have been wrong on many occasions and have admitted it many times. I have done this before, but I guess I have to do this again. Short list:
I was wrong about Ahmed Brooks turning his life around and being a productive player in the NFL. I was wrong in my assessment that Blaine Gabbert was the best QB in the 2012 draft class. I was wrong about Ray McDonald not lasting more than four years in the NFL due to previous knee surgeries in college. I was wrong about Alex Boone being able to effectively slide int the inside. I was wrong about having AJ Jenkins on my best 50 board at number 48. I have admitted probably a dozen times or more now that the 2011 draft class as better than I originally thought. THIS IS A FRICKEN SHORT LIST.

When a person makes hundreds of calls each year, in player rankings, player personnel decisions, etc, you are going to make a LOT of mistakes. EVERYBODY DOES. If you have read any of the pages from 33 on, I have stated almost to the point of vomiting, that all people, including myself make tons of errors. Please go back and read. Post 503, 543 as a starting list

If you can remember the player, please let me know. In the meantime, why don't you read what I write instead of instigating with lies, which is against the board rules.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Sep 4, 2013 at 8:08 PM ]
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Originally posted by LA9erFan:
A franchise QB is more valuable than the best 3-4 DE in the game, and it's not even close, even if that franchise QB has "peers".

And then when you toss in Aldon Smith, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Bruce Miller, etc. versus Rodney Hudson, Vick Ballard, Marcus Cannon, & Co, and it's an absolutely landslide.

LMAO

Did maddog really say that you have to compare them to their peers? hahahha

a franchise QB is a franchise QB. simple as that. you take one over ANY and EVERY other position on the field.
Hey guys calm your tits
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by kidash98:
Been in this road before with MD.

I recall having an animated debate with him and all I asked was for him to say he was wrong about a particular pick (been so long I don't even remember who the player was). Back to the present and how many years later, I still have not seen him admit he was wrong.

Good luck to those waiting for him to say he was wrong. May he have said, "I am a man enough to admit when I am wrong," you will never see it written (typed/posted) by him.

- 98

This is foolishness and you know it. As a mod you should know better. This "you will never see it written by him" is another lying cheap shot. I have been wrong on many occasions and have admitted it many times. I have done this before, but I guess I have to do this again. Short list:
I was wrong about Ahmed Brooks turning his life around and being a productive player in the NFL. I was wrong in my assessment that Blaine Gabbert was the best QB in the 2012 draft class. I was wrong about Ray McDonald not lasting more than four years in the NFL due to previous knee surgeries in college. I was wrong about Alex Boone being able to effectively slide int the inside. I was wrong about having AJ Jenkins on my best 50 board at number 48. I have admitted probably a dozen times or more now that the 2011 draft class as better than I originally thought. THIS IS A FRICKEN SHORT LIST.

When a person makes hundreds of calls each year, in player rankings, player personnel decisions, etc, you are going to make a LOT of mistakes. EVERYBODY DOES. If you have read any of the pages from 33 on, I have stated almost to the point of vomiting, that all people, including myself make tons of errors. Please go back and read. Post 503, 543 as a starting list

If you can remember the player, please let me know. In the meantime, why don't you read what I write instead of instigating with lies, which is against the board rules.

Instigating with lies? You're a funny guy! I'm not the only one to point out your flaws. Not just about draft picks but especially in the manner in which you belittle those who disagree with you.

Part of the reason I have not chimed in one of your thread for so long is how you talk and squirm your way out of your own predictions. As stated, the way you belittle those who goes against your picks.

Part of my responsibility as a Mod IS TO READ WHAT'S POSTED. All the people going against you in this thread is basically saying the same thing yet you choose to ignore it: to be able to man up when you're wrong and to do it in a civil fashion. Granted, you admitted that you were wrong with some players you listed above, and for that I applaud you. But how long did that take you to admit????

No one predicting the draft is 100% correct ever, we all know that. It's when you talk down on people and rub them the wrong way that I've always and will have issues. Case in point re the last few pages: we are still waiting to see you post that you were wrong in your assessment with Balke's 2011 draft. Up to now you still won't get off your high horse and admit that Balke did a hell of a job with those picks, only to throw the subject/conversation to his 2012 picks when that's not even the question raised. You tend to deflect the actual question to something else!

Personally, I think the fact that you were once written up by Barrows got to your head, that you think you're better than a lot of the posters in here. I can admit, to a point, that you do a damn good job with your draft board. It's your interaction with the denizens of this place that I have issues with.

Have some humble pie once in a while. It's actually a good thing and a lot of us would respect you more if you do.

- 98
Wow..got pretty heated in here lol

I can vouch that MD wanted us to take Watt over Gabbert. MD was higher on Watt than any other draft pundit that I can remember, "pounding the table" for us to take him so to speak. True, he though Gabbert was the best QB in the draft. I don't want to speak for him, but I was under the impression that he would have Watt go to the 49ers even if Gabbert was on the board.

You may not agree with MadDog's opinions on the 2011 draft (I don't), but don't make it personal. Nobody likes to be called a liar, and MD leaves all his posts out in the open for everyone to see. He does good work, and the draft war room wouldn't be nearly as good or informative without his contributions.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Sep 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM ]
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Wow..got pretty heated in here lol

I can vouch that MD wanted us to take Watt over Gabbert. MD was higher on Watt than any other draft pundit that I can remember, "pounding the table" for us to take him so to speak. True, he though Gabbert was the best QB in the draft. I don't want to speak for him, but I was under the impression that he would have Watt go to the 49ers even if Gabbert was on the board.

You may not agree with MadDog's opinions on the 2011 draft (I don't), but don't make it personal. Nobody likes to be called a liar, and MD leaves all his posts out in the open for everyone to see. He does good work, and the draft war room wouldn't be nearly as good or informative without his contributions.

Just to be clear, I think this goes beyond draft picks. It's how he interact with the posters of this place I have issues with.

- 98
Originally posted by kidash98:
Just to be clear, I think this goes beyond draft picks. It's how he interact with the posters of this place I have issues with.

- 98

Not disagreeing with you. I can totally see how some of his posts can ruffle a few feathers. It's okay to argue, but the argument is lost when a good debate turns into name calling and character shots. MD makes plenty of errors, but I can't ever recall him taking shots at people unprovoked.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Sep 4, 2013 at 11:11 PM ]
Originally posted by kidash98:
Just to be clear, I think this goes beyond draft picks. It's how he interact with the posters of this place I have issues with.

- 98

Just to chime in....

I think some people like to pick at him for the fun of doing it. Bumping old threads or quoting something from years ago just to ruffle feathers seems to be a tactic always used at him. OTC who is a great contributor, can manage to agree/disagree with him in a civil fashion about draft picks because he isn't making it personal.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Well, another draft comes and goes and time will tell who are the big winners and losers from this weekend. The Niners tried an unconventional approach this year, which may end working out well, or flopping. Once again, a few years down the road, a clear picture of the strength of this draft will emerge.

There are many ways to approach my analysis. At first glance, I thought an incomplete grade is warranted. The addition of a third round pick next year, via trade, does add some merit to this draft class. The later rounds won't have the same impact in the grade, but any additional pick is an additional pick. However, going the incomplete route is a cop-out, since this is all fun and games. So, here it is:

Round One- AJ Jenkins- A bit surprised with the pick. However, in the last days before the draft, the Rams were all over him, and I almost put him at 33 on my big board. I thought they wanted J. Jenkins more and had AJ after him. Jenkins was the 7th WR on my board, and the 4th taken overall. I think he is a good player, not a great player. To me, he is a solid number two WR in the NFL, but this is not going to happen until year 3. Expect very little impact in 2012. Smooth, quick, runs good routes, and productive, despite a lack of quality QB play. Saw a lot of him since I live in Big Ten country. Grade: F.

The reason for the grade is more than the player (because to me, Jenkins at 30 is a C+ grade). It is the opportunity to utilize the pick for the best value. And the best value at 30, was to not stay at 30. Great opportunities jump in front of you rarely in the draft, and the Niners passed on a golden one. Due to the nature of needs-based picks, from 6-21, we saw a complete run on defensive players. Only Tannehill at 8, Floyd at 13, and K. Wright at 20 were selected on the offensive side of the ball. At 21, the Bengals traded down so NE could draft Chandler Jones. The next handful of teams on the clock had OL needs, and to me, this was the time to make a move. The Browns, at 22, from all reports, lost out on K. Wright at 20, and could have been a trade partner. The Lions, at 23, needed OL help. The Steelers, at 24, for sure. The Texans, at 26, as well. So, with the top graded interior lineman in possibly a decade sitting on the board at 22, in David DeCastro, the Niners could have picked up one of the best players in the draft, and at great value. It would have cost a third rounder according to the value of trades around the same pick and according to trade value chart. The Niners missed on DeCastro, which would have anchored the right side of the OL for a decade.

Round 2- LaMichael James- Quick, shifty RB who can make players miss, and has potential to make big plays on offense. Rotational, third down back, who will probably play 10 snaps per game. And, therein lies the problem. The team is stocked at RB, with Gore, who is a three down back, Hunter, who is a similar back to James, and Brandon Jacobs. James may get his hands on the ball 3-4 times a game, and I just don't think this is good value for a second round selection. The team could have found a similar type player with even more explosiveness in Chris Rainey, about 4 rounds later. Grade: D.

Round 3 Traded- Good negotiation by Baalke. The Colts drafted TY Hilton, who is more explosive than James, but they gave up a lot in moving up. A fifth rounder next year and the pick five picks later. Grade- A

Round 4- Another great value trade dropping six slots and picking up a 6th this year and 6th next year. The Dolphins saw Lamar Miller on the board. Grade- A

Round 4- A third trade in the matter of ten picks. Team gives up pick for a 3rd rounder in 2013. Panthers desperately wanted Frank Alexander, and I don't know why. Great value trade. Grade- A

Round 4- Joe Looney- A pretty good pick under the circumstances. I think the team got burnt in the Dolphins trade when the Ravens grabbed Gino Gradkowski, who I think the team was all over. The best of the interior OL are long gone by now, and the team needs a guy who can come in and compete right now for a starting position. Looney has a ton of experience, is savvy, smart, and is technically sound. He will compete for the starting RG spot right away. That is the upside. The downside, Looney doesn't have much upside, and I'm not sure he will ever reach the level of Adam Snyder. A decent value pick because the team desperately needed a body. I had a list of guys graded higher, but I think pick is alright. Grade- B-

Round 5- Darius Fleming- Good football player that is athletic, quick, and productive. Not sure how he fits on our team. I speculate the team will shift him inside to ILB, and he will compete for the primary backup role under Bowman. He provides some insurance in case Bowman does not re-sign with the team in the future. The team had greater needs, and there were better players on the board, so this is a head scratcher to me. Grade: D

Round 6- Trent Robinson, Michigan State, FS- Home Run. The Niners get a steal in the 6th with a guy I had a late 3rd round grade. One of the best FS prospects in this draft, Robinson can run with WR's, and is not afraid to tackle. Productive, experienced, and solid instincts. Really outstanding pick.Grade: A

Round 6- Jason Slowey- Another terrific pick from small school Western Oregon. Slowey adds a lot of versatility in this draft, as we will be able to play all three interior line positions, and in an emergency, play tackle. Athletic, tough, and raw. Has much more upside than Looney, and Slowey was on a list of six small school guys I predicted the team would select. Brilliant play for a sixth rounder. Grade: A

Round 7- Cam Johnson- Edge OLB rusher, Virginia. Johnson is an enigma. Great athletic ability, played in a 3-4 system, has tremendous upside, and is a terrible underachiever. Lacks passion for the game, should be more productive and dominant. Guy with character flaws. However, you are getting second-third round talent in the 7th round, and if he can get his head on straight, becomes a terrific value pick. Could be starting material on another 3-4 team. Grade: A

So, as you can see, this is a complicated grade, with the variable of additional productive players next year. In most drafts, the greatest focus of the grade is the first two or three picks, and this was the down part of this draft class. Just not enough bang for your buck, and the loss of a potential Pro-Bowl type player in DeCastro because the team did not make the move up. Late rounders and future picks helped the final score below.

Final Draft Grade: C

As for my draft board, based on my best player available board, in a straight up, no trade draft, I had:
Round One- Peter Konz, C/G
Round Two- Mohamed Sanu, WR
Round Three- Brandon Thompson, NT
Round Four- Malik Jackson, DE
Round Five- Vick Ballard, RB
Round Six- Antonio Allen, SS
Round Seven- Derrius Brooks, CB

It has been a fun run. I will gladly take all questions, and time permitting as I shift from this board to real life, I will hopefully get a chance to respond to all.

Cheers.

Kind of ironic that all this arguing is occurring in this thread. MD pretty much nailed this draft grade lol. Only miss was Slowey.
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This thread is going to get locked soon if we can't tone it down. I would like to make a few suggestions.

1. Stop the psychoanalysis of MadDog. It's an ad hominem attack, and it makes the discussion personal. Personally, I would take CK + Aldon + the rest of the draft over MadDog's picks. I don't need to call him arrogant or unable to admit he is wrong to disagree with him.
2. Can we avoid using the word lie? I would recommend using the word "incorrect" instead.
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Kind of ironic that all this arguing is occurring in this thread. MD pretty much nailed this draft grade lol. Only miss was Slowey.

Robinson as well.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
It's not even close. Not too mention, MD was clamoring for us to pick Gabbert, not Watt. Quite revisionist if you ask me. In fact, Gabbert was MD's 4 best player on the Niners board while Watt was 8th. MD likes to take credit for calling Watt's greatness, but he had quite a few guys ahead of him.

The above quote was what you wrote a few days ago to begin the conversation. Let's go through it step by step.

"MD was clamoring for us to pick Gabbert, not Watt"- False. My pick was Watt as shown in the draft redo thread and also on my board come draft day. You must be the only person in the world to not get this point, as people have been complimenting my selection of Watt for two years plus.

"Quite revisionist if you ask me"- The translation is that I lied about the selection of Watt. This was not true then, and not true now. You accused me of being a liar, and I don't lie.

"In fact, Gabbert was MD's 4 best player on the Niners board while Watt was 8th"- I have already pointed our earlier in this thread, and showed the link, that this was my board on January 3, well before the draft, and showed an April thread where I have Watt before Gabbert and had Watt at number 5 on my board, which is where Watt would have fallen on my draf when the team was on the clock.

"MD likes to take credit for calling Watt's greatness, but he had a few guys ahead of him"- I had him at 5, after Green, Peterson, Miller, and Dareus. The first three are ProBowlers, and Dareus is a solid. Name someone who had Watt higher on their board than I did. Name someone who had Watt as the selection. Few to none.

Review: you enter the board and take a number of cheap shots, full of lies and distortion. I then have to spend my time to reveal one by one the lies you presented, by digging through the board and posting links showing what I wrote. In the end, you are shocked that I would actually be offended. How would you feel if someone came onto the board and posted a series of lies and distortions about your previous posts and thoughts? Have you no shame,

Okay. Let's set the record straight here. I claimed you had us taking Gabbert ahead of Watt. This, I backed up with evidence all the way up until March 2nd when Gabbert was the 5th best player on your board and Watt was the sixth. I honestly could not find a post of yours that disputed this. When you posted a link closer to draft day with Watt fifth and Gabbert 6th, I apologized for my mistake. But that does not make me a liar, or cheap shot artist, etc. I was simply operating under the incorrect assumption that you had Gabbert ahead of Watt the entire time. You proved that you had Gabbert ahead of Watt all the way up until closer to the draft where you then swapped them in your rankings. Again, I apologize for my mistake in case you missed it the first time, and I apologize for calling you a revisionist concerning where you had Watt VS Gabbert, I was wrong in that assumption. Moving on...

With that said, my point has always been you using Watt as a crutch in a year full of poor prognostications, Baalke rippings, and condescending attitudes towards those that disagree with you. Every time I bring up this fact you ignore it. So I'll post it again. I was a man who owned up to my mistake. You claimed you own up to your mistakes. Here's your chance...

You continue to ignore the raking you gave Baalke in 2011. You said you were a man who admits when they're wrong, but you aren't. Plain and simple. You condescended others who supported a wait and see approach with Baalke when he let TKO and Franklin go, when he re-signed Ray Mac, when he didn't sign Nnamdi or other high priced CBs and instead waited and signed Rogers for a small deal, and this isn't touching on the draft. So man up and admit you were wrong about Baalke. Or don't. But don't expect people to forget when a guy treats others like crap, then is wrong about nearly everything he predicted, then comes back puffing out his chest about JJ Watt and how he admits when he's wrong. Horse s**t.
[ Edited by AmpLee on Sep 5, 2013 at 10:54 AM ]
MD.. Listen I know that no one is perfect and you hit on some and miss on some. I actually do like the work that you put in. However, sometimes your memory is either flawed or you dont want to admit that perhaps you were wrong.

Case in point.... You gave the Niners an A for their trade with the Colts in 2012 when they traded their 3rd rd pick and the Colts got Hilton. Now, you just made this statement....
"Thanks. One note about the 2012 not talked about often. Baalke traded with the Colts, dealing our third rounder to them in 2012, the 92nd overall selection. Many praised the trade at the time. However, looking back, that pick was TY Hilton, who has turned out to be a stud third rounder. The Colts got us on that one. Much like the Niners scored big in 2011, the Colts were crazy good in 2012.


Why didnt you say... many praised that trade at the time INCLUDING ME?
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
MD.. Listen I know that no one is perfect and you hit on some and miss on some. I actually do like the work that you put in. However, sometimes your memory is either flawed or you dont want to admit that perhaps you were wrong.

Case in point.... You gave the Niners an A for their trade with the Colts in 2012 when they traded their 3rd rd pick and the Colts got Hilton. Now, you just made this statement....
"Thanks. One note about the 2012 not talked about often. Baalke traded with the Colts, dealing our third rounder to them in 2012, the 92nd overall selection. Many praised the trade at the time. However, looking back, that pick was TY Hilton, who has turned out to be a stud third rounder. The Colts got us on that one. Much like the Niners scored big in 2011, the Colts were crazy good in 2012.


Why didnt you say... many praised that trade at the time INCLUDING ME?
Of course, including me. That being said, to set the record, I was not in favor of the trade when it happened, although it appeared to be great value when it happened.