There are 75 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

OnTheClock's Big 253 Board - 4/18

Originally posted by ishkabibel:
Originally posted by susweel:
Just curious what do you guys (OTC and Maddog) use to form opinions on these players ?


me too

Combination of a number of things.

1) Collective knowledge of what I have viewed from the players games this year and in previous years.
2) Extensive research through a multitude of sources -- really any possible source you can find -- to dig deeper into the player. Background, history, production / performance and numbers with consideration of competition, and many many many other things about the player that you don't get just by watching them play.
3) Reviewing any possible sort of footage you can get your hands on of a player. ESPN3.com is one good source. It is obviously not possible to see large portions of multiple games of every player. YouTube can be helpful in finding clips, but one must ALWAYS be very careful not to use it by itself to make evaluations. YouTube can get you excited about a scrub if you use it wrongly. It is a good tool to get a quick look at some things, but that is all.
4) Combine / Pro Day Measurables -- these are NOT the end-all be-all, but they have some importance and can measure certain areas and give some comparison as to where players stack up against others when you have similar types of players you want to compare.

There's more that I'm sure I'm missing (I had a list somewhere that I used for evaluation). But that's a quick look at some things.

Forecasting the draft involves another huge laundry list in addition to this.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
Are we going to get your opinions of what the Niners draft board looks like? Baalke implied such when he stated today that the Niners are looking for players that about half of the draft is looking for. That list must have some Niner parameters about it so it would be interesting to see it and speculate from a list of fewer players.

I think you might see that in the next few days. One small example of how schemes impact players on boards: the Niners won't be looking at three technique DT's who run in the area of 6'1, 305 pounds. Just doesn't make sense. You can pretty much scratch off guys like Courtney Upshaw, who really struggle dropping into coverage. He needs to be a 4-3 DE at the next level. Say goodbye to really good 4-3 backers like Lavonte David, who really fit a Tampa 2 scheme like the Bears run.

These are a few examples of how the team would narrow their board to select players who fit their scheme and philosophy.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
What are your thoughts on Mike Brewster? Does he have versatility to play Guard or does he project to be strictly a center?

OTC knows my thoughts on him, as I believe I have seen every snap in his OSU career: Wildly overrated as a prospect, but we are seeing a projection now that is far more realistic (5th, 6th rounds) than from a year ago.

Gets beat way too much and in horrible times. He might be best suited to move to guard, but to me, I have him as the sixth best center in this draft and seventh round/priority free agent value.

I posted an evaluation somewhere I think (perhaps in my other Big board thread), I'll have to find it.
Something I wanted to add. Not a big fan of Baalke's long range philosophy of player personnel matters, as has been clear in other threads. However, he did state something very interesting in the latest interview. Much grading often comes in quick snap judgments. The Blink philosophy is generally played out in an evaluation of a player.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Apr 18, 2012 at 7:11 PM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Something I wanted to add. Not a big fan of Baalke's long range philosophy of player personnel matters, as has been clear in other threads. However, he did state something very interesting in the latest interview. Much grading often comes in quick snap judgments. The Blink philosophy is generally played out in an evaluation of a player.

I've noticed this philosophy as well, but I'm a bit the opposite because it leans more towards the kind of draft strategy I would personally opt for if I was in the position, though perhaps a little more conservative than Baalke, I admit.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
What are your thoughts on Mike Brewster? Does he have versatility to play Guard or does he project to be strictly a center?

OTC knows my thoughts on him, as I believe I have seen every snap in his OSU career: Wildly overrated as a prospect, but we are seeing a projection now that is far more realistic (5th, 6th rounds) than from a year ago.

Gets beat way too much and in horrible times. He might be best suited to move to guard, but to me, I have him as the sixth best center in this draft and seventh round/priority free agent value.

I posted an evaluation somewhere I think (perhaps in my other Big board thread), I'll have to find it.

Found it, this is what I said:

As far as Brewster, I'm thinking he may struggle in certain schemes. Passes all the tests on paper when it comes to physical ability and smarts, but on the field seems to have consistently struggled in certain areas, leading some to believe there are limitations he may never overcome. Particularly noted is the tendency to miss blocks at the next level. This makes him ineffective pulling, trapping, or really having to deal with any moving targets in general, and this causes him to be susceptible to stunts. That'll be a problem in the NFL.
I'd take the players at the first three slots. Zeitler, Irvin and Childs.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
OTC,
Although the two open starting positions are on offense, I agree with you that the Niners will go defense with the second pick. Baalke and Harbaugh have mostly held to this balance in the past. What do you see in Greg Childs that would make him a good pick for the Niners? And why Zeitler over Konz?

I think he is exactly the kind of player we need on this team and his complete skill set makes him a potentially dominant threat at long as he is healthy. I posted my evaluation and take on him in another thread awhile back where I explained how I grade him as the #2 receiver in this entire draft -- that's my expectation if he can remain healthy and suffer no setbacks.

My quote on Childs a while back (Post 78):

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/nfl-draft/164729-maddogs-best-player-available-board-1-50/page6/

I think, barring injury, if Childs is 100%, he has all the tools to be a dominant NFL receiver. He snatches the ball out of the air, he gets upfield quicker than Floyd, he catches the ball well in traffic, he can truck defenders but also elude them, he can deliver punishing blocks, and runs great routes. Other than lack of 4.3 speed (although he hit 4.39 at his Pro Day), he has everything you'd want. The determination to play through pain and get back on the field speaks a lot to me as well.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I've noticed this philosophy as well, but I'm a bit the opposite because it leans more towards the kind of draft strategy I would personally opt for if I was in the position, though perhaps a little more conservative than Baalke, I admit.

This draft will be interesting for him as we are no longer drafting early in each round. Bigger challenge.mShould be fun to see which direction he goes.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Both OTC and I watch a lot of games. I DVR a lot of games to isolate players in review. Don't read much in publications for my BPA boards. Often form strong opinions based on post season weeks of practice, and some field drills at combine. I am a firm believer in footwork as a strong sign of someone's ability to play well at the next level, but also like watching initial reaction off the snap. Look at specifics in games, practices, combine drills. Does WR round out routes, or does he break down and pivot toward sidelines without leaning or rounding route. Guys like Sanu and Joe Adams (neither burners in forty times) create separation by clean route running. Look at catch radius for WR's. Can they snatch the ball from extended position.

For talent at LB and S, really look for initial step off the ball. It is what separates a player like Taylor Mays from Ed Reed. Very high on LB Bobby Wagner long before the studly Pro-Day due to first step off the snap. Just puts himself in position to make plays.

For edge defenders, really looking at ten yard split, not forty yard times. Two best this year at combine: Bruce Irvin and Andre Branch (way undervalued).

To me, these are a tiny fraction of the things I use to grade players and how I think they will play at the next level.


Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Combination of a number of things.

1) Collective knowledge of what I have viewed from the players games this year and in previous years.
2) Extensive research through a multitude of sources -- really any possible source you can find -- to dig deeper into the player. Background, history, production / performance and numbers with consideration of competition, and many many many other things about the player that you don't get just by watching them play.
3) Reviewing any possible sort of footage you can get your hands on of a player. ESPN3.com is one good source. It is obviously not possible to see large portions of multiple games of every player. YouTube can be helpful in finding clips, but one must ALWAYS be very careful not to use it by itself to make evaluations. YouTube can get you excited about a scrub if you use it wrongly. It is a good tool to get a quick look at some things, but that is all.
4) Combine / Pro Day Measurables -- these are NOT the end-all be-all, but they have some importance and can measure certain areas and give some comparison as to where players stack up against others when you have similar types of players you want to compare.

There's more that I'm sure I'm missing (I had a list somewhere that I used for evaluation). But that's a quick look at some things.

Forecasting the draft involves another huge laundry list in addition to this.

Sounds like you guy do invest a lot of time in formulating your assessments. Thanks for the knowledge
Hey OnTheClock and all you other gurus... I got this text message from a friend that contradicts everything i've heard about Robert Griffin III

"Scouts find negatives of RG3:

He's an a*****e who treats people like crap. He can't run unless there is a wide open field and the sea opens up for him. His athleticism under duress in the pocket isnt even close to Cam Newton's."


Keep in mind this dude is a Cam Newton fanboy... he'd suck his cock if it was right in front of him.
Originally posted by modninerfan:
Hey OnTheClock and all you other gurus... I got this text message from a friend that contradicts everything i've heard about Robert Griffin III

"Scouts find negatives of RG3:

He's an a*****e who treats people like crap. He can't run unless there is a wide open field and the sea opens up for him. His athleticism under duress in the pocket isnt even close to Cam Newton's."


Keep in mind this dude is a Cam Newton fanboy... he'd suck his cock if it was right in front of him.


Dont know why but I get a feeling that RG3 is gonna be a bust or will not live up to the hype.
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by modninerfan:
Hey OnTheClock and all you other gurus... I got this text message from a friend that contradicts everything i've heard about Robert Griffin III

"Scouts find negatives of RG3:

He's an a*****e who treats people like crap. He can't run unless there is a wide open field and the sea opens up for him. His athleticism under duress in the pocket isnt even close to Cam Newton's."


Keep in mind this dude is a Cam Newton fanboy... he'd suck his cock if it was right in front of him.


Dont know why but I get a feeling that RG3 is gonna be a bust or will not live up to the hype.

Murphy's law will have him tear his ACL in an exhibition game... the redskins gave too much up for it not to happen
Question OTC, why has Upshaw fallen so far? Not impressive at the combine or pro-day, i get that... but he had knee tendinitis and was running at around 275-280 when he plays around 265. Is it the fear of a nagging injury? He did nothing but produce on the biggest of stages and dominated SEC tackles. Top end speed may not be "elite" but his 10 yard burst is quick as they come. Along with that he has some of the best hands and balance Ive seen out of this years tweener olb/de crop. He sets up his moves and transitions to his 2nd or 3rd move effortlessly.

Can you point to tendencies that caused this fall outside of the combine/pro day? It seems almost universal across the draft sites.
Originally posted by 5280High:
Question OTC, why has Upshaw fallen so far? Not impressive at the combine or pro-day, i get that... but he had knee tendinitis and was running at around 275-280 when he plays around 265. Is it the fear of a nagging injury? He did nothing but produce on the biggest of stages and dominated SEC tackles. Top end speed may not be "elite" but his 10 yard burst is quick as they come. Along with that he has some of the best hands and balance Ive seen out of this years tweener olb/de crop. He sets up his moves and transitions to his 2nd or 3rd move effortlessly.

Can you point to tendencies that caused this fall outside of the combine/pro day? It seems almost universal across the draft sites.

-lack of pass rush moves
-doubts over whether he can play away from the line of scrimmage
-tendency to not hold his lane against the run
-not particularly explosive or quick

The problem is he doesn't really translate as a pass rusher and he doesn't show the ability to play standing up LB.