There are 69 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

9ersLiferInChicago updated Mock Draft - Post Moss & Manningham

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
1st. If the argument for picking Fleener in the 1st is to replace Davis, because Davis is in his final year of his contract, then that can be achieved in the 2nd - 4th rounds. Dwayne Allen, Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, and Michael Egnew all would come and and quit effectively replace Davis - if thats REALLY the argument. If the 3rd down/redzone issue is the argument then, again, there are TE's in the 2nd-4th rounds who we can get to achieve that. My issue is drafting a guy in the 1st who has no chance to start. Sure, we used (and will use) a lot of two TE's sets, in various ways. Say we use 2 TE sets 40%, or even 50%, of the time - which is high even for the 49ers - that means our 1st rounder won't be on the field 50%-60% of the time. That just can't be for our 1st rounder. My point is that all the reasons given to take a TE in the 1st can be just as effectively achieved by selecting a TE in the 2nd-4th. I don't think it's necessary to burn our 1st rounder to achieve something we could achieve as late as the 4th.

2nd. Its still an open question if Moss will make the team. Just because he's hungry and runs a 4.4 don't mean he'll make the 53. He still going to ba asked to do things in this offense - consistantly - he's never been asked to do. He's gonna have to demonstrate selflessness; there are gonna be times in this offense he may only get one or two pass thrown his way but be asked to block and be a decoy most of the game, for example. Trust me, he isn't here to just run "go"routes all game.

3rd. We might not take a S in the 2nd, but I think it's a gamble. If the team had any confidence at all that Reggie Smith could halfway replace Goldson they would have allowed Goldson to hit the open maket. The fact is that Goldson is way too important to this defense and cannot be easily replaced. We just can't plug anybody there. Thats why he was franchised. And thats why I think we need to draft, and groom, for his probable/possible replacement it he wants Ft. Knox next season.

I agree we need to get some depth at LB in the draft. I like Turbin over Martin. We need a bruiser-back. Plus, Ginn resigned, and if I'm not mistaken Cox has return abilities. But I agree, we need to get a RB as well.

Our 1st rounder wasn't on the field 50-60% of the time this year, and that worked out pretty well, because he was on the field for impact plays. If Fleener only played 50% of offensive snaps, but caught 10 TDs, would you still be upset? That was a #7 pick, too, not a #30 (that makes a difference). I don't think it is terribly likely that anyone, at any position, that we pick at #30 is a sure-thing starter, especially if you believe Kilgore is the guy at RG. I would be pretty pissed if we added a 4th 1st rounder to our OL. At some point, the staff must develop talent on the line, especially at G.

Incidentally, I think you meant to type Wlaker, not Davis, in your 1st paragraph.
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by martysofresh:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by martysofresh:
this lol. FS in the 2nd tho? big no no. OG and WR(in that order) are the biggest priorities at the moment then CB and depth at positions on D. ONce we get that RG position filled, i think everything else can all into to place. Bill Walsh philosophy.
Yeah, FS in the 2nd. Goldson will be hard to replace, otherwise we would have let him hit the market. Not all positions can be replaced with a bargain. And we can't assume that Goldson won't want to break the bank like he wants this year. We won't franchise him 2 years in a row. So we have to think about the future at that position. Iloka is regarded as the best FS and slated to go late 2nd, early 3rd - right in our wheel house. He can sit and learn a year and be ready for the 2014 season. I think people are sleeping on the young talent already on the roster, namely Daniel Kilgore and Mike Person. These guys were meant to be developed, especially Kilgore. And from what I can tell Kilgore's development is coming along quite well. To draft G in the first JH will be saying that Kilgore is a failure already, which questions his developmental abilities. So, unless that guy is just a no-brainer - which I don't see at pick 30 for G - I don't see that happening. Ryan Miller in the 5th will be good value. He can come in and at least push Kilgore to get the best out of him. I predict that Kilgore is going to impress in training camp.

Hmm I'm seeing your logic. Ive kinda changed my prioritizing since that last post. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a guy like Konz or Zietler with that first pick since they could start from day 1 be play C eventually but if Kilgore is going to take over RG this season and eventually slide over to C, than I'd rather just pick up a guy like Brandon Brooks In the 4th. I'm not gonna pretend that I know anything about Kilgore and Person, I don't lol. I hopped off the Fleenerbandwagon a while ago but that pro day is making it hard for me not to wanna hop back on. I'm really lost on what I want to see happen with that first pick. But I kno I want Quick in the 2nd and Turbin in the 3rd. I like the LB in the 4th. I hav us trading back for a 2nd and 3rd nd like to get him with the second 3rd round pick. I need to make a mock today
None of us know anything about Kilgore. But we do know we moved up to draft him, and he's been developing since then. And if we trust the wisdom of Baalke and JH - like I do - then we have to see Kilgore as a real option to start at G. Keep in mind that we basically let Snyder walk uncontested. I really feel that if the coaching staff didn't feel that Kilgore was ready then they would have made a better effort to maintain Snyder. Now, what we do in the draft will tell us exactly how our coaching staff see our RG situation. If we go G early (1st-2nd) then its reasonable to conclude that Kilgore's development hasn't gone well. If we get one mid to late rounds then we can reasonably conclude that they feel Kilgore's the guy.
I trust JH and Baalke completely, we worked out some RG today that played for the cardinals and idk if thats jsut as a vet backup behind Kilgore or what, but im just curious to why we we're still fishing for RGs in FA if we only have 5mil in cap space.. Too bad Decastro couldnt be one of those guys with character issues lol. I just wish we had an earlier 2nd RD pick though. Some guys arnt really worth our 1st pick, but we pick so late in the 2nd that we'd miss out alot of quality players who would be considered "a reach" with the 1st rd pick. Our best bet probably would be to get Konz since he is a center and will be able to take over once Goodwin retires but also because I can only assume that he is already better than Kilgore for the fact that everyone is saying he could start from Day 1. I truly dont want any reciever in the first unless its Floyd. We're not really "WR friendly" and i feel like people would lable them a bust. BUt I truly want our O-Line to be solid. Idk if watched the first few games of the season, but it was VERY painful watching us try and run the ball. HAving Konz would also work for JH's heavy formation. We'd have Kilgore and Konz instead of Justin Smith and Issac Sopoaga as lead blockers. Soo lets just say Kilgore is the guy, what would u do with that 1st pick?
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
1st. If the argument for picking Fleener in the 1st is to replace Davis, because Davis is in his final year of his contract, then that can be achieved in the 2nd - 4th rounds. Dwayne Allen, Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, and Michael Egnew all would come and and quit effectively replace Davis - if thats REALLY the argument. If the 3rd down/redzone issue is the argument then, again, there are TE's in the 2nd-4th rounds who we can get to achieve that. My issue is drafting a guy in the 1st who has no chance to start. Sure, we used (and will use) a lot of two TE's sets, in various ways. Say we use 2 TE sets 40%, or even 50%, of the time - which is high even for the 49ers - that means our 1st rounder won't be on the field 50%-60% of the time. That just can't be for our 1st rounder. My point is that all the reasons given to take a TE in the 1st can be just as effectively achieved by selecting a TE in the 2nd-4th. I don't think it's necessary to burn our 1st rounder to achieve something we could achieve as late as the 4th.

2nd. Its still an open question if Moss will make the team. Just because he's hungry and runs a 4.4 don't mean he'll make the 53. He still going to ba asked to do things in this offense - consistantly - he's never been asked to do. He's gonna have to demonstrate selflessness; there are gonna be times in this offense he may only get one or two pass thrown his way but be asked to block and be a decoy most of the game, for example. Trust me, he isn't here to just run "go"routes all game.

3rd. We might not take a S in the 2nd, but I think it's a gamble. If the team had any confidence at all that Reggie Smith could halfway replace Goldson they would have allowed Goldson to hit the open maket. The fact is that Goldson is way too important to this defense and cannot be easily replaced. We just can't plug anybody there. Thats why he was franchised. And thats why I think we need to draft, and groom, for his probable/possible replacement it he wants Ft. Knox next season.

I agree we need to get some depth at LB in the draft. I like Turbin over Martin. We need a bruiser-back. Plus, Ginn resigned, and if I'm not mistaken Cox has return abilities. But I agree, we need to get a RB as well.

Our 1st rounder wasn't on the field 50-60% of the time this year, and that worked out pretty well, because he was on the field for impact plays. If Fleener only played 50% of offensive snaps, but caught 10 TDs, would you still be upset? That was a #7 pick, too, not a #30 (that makes a difference). I don't think it is terribly likely that anyone, at any position, that we pick at #30 is a sure-thing starter, especially if you believe Kilgore is the guy at RG. I would be pretty pissed if we added a 4th 1st rounder to our OL. At some point, the staff must develop talent on the line, especially at G.

Incidentally, I think you meant to type Wlaker, not Davis, in your 1st paragraph.
True, Aldon was on the field 50-60% of the time, but thats year one. Everyone knew he'd start year two. Drafting Fleener, even in the first, his cieling is at best 50-60% (and given the fact that we have one Vernon Davis 50% is a big stretch), and thats my point. Fleener would only be on the field in 2 TE sets, and I don't see those sets being employed more than 40% of the time, which, realisticly, is a ton. I can't disagree with you about the line and Kilgore. We already have three 1st rounders, with a developed player set to start. I predict good things from our OL this season.

My bad about Davis. I did mean Walker.
Originally posted by martysofresh:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by martysofresh:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by martysofresh:
this lol. FS in the 2nd tho? big no no. OG and WR(in that order) are the biggest priorities at the moment then CB and depth at positions on D. ONce we get that RG position filled, i think everything else can all into to place. Bill Walsh philosophy.
Yeah, FS in the 2nd. Goldson will be hard to replace, otherwise we would have let him hit the market. Not all positions can be replaced with a bargain. And we can't assume that Goldson won't want to break the bank like he wants this year. We won't franchise him 2 years in a row. So we have to think about the future at that position. Iloka is regarded as the best FS and slated to go late 2nd, early 3rd - right in our wheel house. He can sit and learn a year and be ready for the 2014 season. I think people are sleeping on the young talent already on the roster, namely Daniel Kilgore and Mike Person. These guys were meant to be developed, especially Kilgore. And from what I can tell Kilgore's development is coming along quite well. To draft G in the first JH will be saying that Kilgore is a failure already, which questions his developmental abilities. So, unless that guy is just a no-brainer - which I don't see at pick 30 for G - I don't see that happening. Ryan Miller in the 5th will be good value. He can come in and at least push Kilgore to get the best out of him. I predict that Kilgore is going to impress in training camp.

Hmm I'm seeing your logic. Ive kinda changed my prioritizing since that last post. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a guy like Konz or Zietler with that first pick since they could start from day 1 be play C eventually but if Kilgore is going to take over RG this season and eventually slide over to C, than I'd rather just pick up a guy like Brandon Brooks In the 4th. I'm not gonna pretend that I know anything about Kilgore and Person, I don't lol. I hopped off the Fleenerbandwagon a while ago but that pro day is making it hard for me not to wanna hop back on. I'm really lost on what I want to see happen with that first pick. But I kno I want Quick in the 2nd and Turbin in the 3rd. I like the LB in the 4th. I hav us trading back for a 2nd and 3rd nd like to get him with the second 3rd round pick. I need to make a mock today
None of us know anything about Kilgore. But we do know we moved up to draft him, and he's been developing since then. And if we trust the wisdom of Baalke and JH - like I do - then we have to see Kilgore as a real option to start at G. Keep in mind that we basically let Snyder walk uncontested. I really feel that if the coaching staff didn't feel that Kilgore was ready then they would have made a better effort to maintain Snyder. Now, what we do in the draft will tell us exactly how our coaching staff see our RG situation. If we go G early (1st-2nd) then its reasonable to conclude that Kilgore's development hasn't gone well. If we get one mid to late rounds then we can reasonably conclude that they feel Kilgore's the guy.
I trust JH and Baalke completely, we worked out some RG today that played for the cardinals and idk if thats jsut as a vet backup behind Kilgore or what, but im just curious to why we we're still fishing for RGs in FA if we only have 5mil in cap space.. Too bad Decastro couldnt be one of those guys with character issues lol. I just wish we had an earlier 2nd RD pick though. Some guys arnt really worth our 1st pick, but we pick so late in the 2nd that we'd miss out alot of quality players who would be considered "a reach" with the 1st rd pick. Our best bet probably would be to get Konz since he is a center and will be able to take over once Goodwin retires but also because I can only assume that he is already better than Kilgore for the fact that everyone is saying he could start from Day 1. I truly dont want any reciever in the first unless its Floyd. We're not really "WR friendly" and i feel like people would lable them a bust. BUt I truly want our O-Line to be solid. Idk if watched the first few games of the season, but it was VERY painful watching us try and run the ball. HAving Konz would also work for JH's heavy formation. We'd have Kilgore and Konz instead of Justin Smith and Issac Sopoaga as lead blockers. Soo lets just say Kilgore is the guy, what would u do with that 1st pick?
Competition. I honestly believe JH & Co. intend on using competition to get the bast out of all players. I think they'd rather have a vet backing up Kilgore to push rather than a rookie. At this point we can add one pretty cheaply. I have been consistant that WR is a major need for us. So, I think Hill is our best choice. Hill would come in and really challenge for that #1 spot, no worse than #2. With Hill, Manningham, and Crabs (regrettably)/Williams/Miller/Walker/Hunter on the field with Vernon and Gore at the same time changes how defenses play us. Our WR situation is no better than it was before Morgan left. Manningham is more of a replacement for Morgan than an upgrade. Moss doesn't upgrade us at all in that he isn't a long-term piece. Its still an open question as to whether or not he'll even make the final 53, and if he do how effective he'll be for this team given his over all game.
*******Mock Draft Update*******

The signing of Brandon Jacobs has affected how I see our draft. We won't need to draft a RB at all this season, that's for sure. So, as opposed to creating another thread I'll just update my mock here. Now my first 2 picks won't change. I still see WR in the 1st and FS in the 2nd are vital (Stephen Hill and George Iloka). But all others changes:

3rd - Josh Kaddu, OLB, Oregon. If he falls to us, which is a good chance, there should be no thought about it. This guy is pure LB, of any variety. Tackle with bad intentions and sheer aggression. Has an intimidating style of play. Will be the perfect blitzer in our scheme. Needs to learn discipline, but at OLB for the 49ers he'll have plenty of development time.

4th - Tommy Streeter, WR, Miami. Initially high on a lot of peoples board, but has slipped. VERY raw talent. 6-5, 215 runs a 4.4 - scary. Needs to work on his concentration as he has inconsistent hands at times, but nothing that a JH development program can't fix. Physically gifted with a ton of upside. The perfect "project". There's no doubt that he'll be there for us here and he would be great value here.

5th - Trevin Wade, CB, Arizona. There are some scouts who think Wade could go much sooner but chances are good that he'll be available for us. Good cover corner with ball skills. Plays with good technique. Not known for his speed but will be a good slot and nickle guy.

6th - Akiem Hicks, NT, Regina University, Canada. An absolute monster, 6-4 5/8, 318. I think he's a diamond in the rough. Not much American intell on him accept he has passion for the game, swallowing tackler, will have to learn to play his size, and he's very raw. If V. Fangio and Jim Tomsula can gets their hands on this kid they can mold him into a real force.

7th - Damien Jackson, FS, Mississippi. Probably better suited to play SS at the NFL level due to his sick run support abilities and his size (6-2, 210). Has value at SS (started at FS and SS the last two seasons) and on ST. Very aggressive and violent hitter. Will need to get better at his ball skills and coverage. Would be a great backup to Donte Whitner.

Now that's a very roster threatening draft class there. Lots of talent and value.
[ Edited by 9ersLiferInChicago on Mar 29, 2012 at 7:21 AM ]