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MadDog's Final Wrap Up Grade for Niners

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
I dont buy into combine numbers, the combine is a idiotic method of evaluating.

Id rather look at game tape and see what he did, not if he ran a poor 40, or whatever.

Just stupid IMO.

While some combine numbers may be overemphasized by fans, the combine does have a purpose, in putting athletes side by side in a controlled setting to see their overall athleticism side by side (speed, explosiveness, strength, change of direction abilities). I do agree that some of the combine events should be altered (the start to the 40 is silly to me), but it does serve a purpose. I haven't even gone into the medical evals and the interviews, which are gigantic.

Overemphasized events include the forty, QB's throwing the ball, WR's running routes. Underemphasized: shuttle and cone times, which really show change of direction abilities.

Overall, I am a supporter of the combine as one major piece of the puzzle. It is surely not the most important element, but is critical.

They need to do the combine in full pads and helmet. It's surprising how that little bit of extra slows some players down and ruins their vision while it won't phase others.

BTW, MD, how does Kaepernick compare to Tebow coming out of the draft? Didn't Denver trade up for Tebow?

I agree that helmet and pads would be a nice addition to the combine.

I think that Kaepernick is a much better NFL QB prospect than Tebow. Kaepernick has a stronger arm, is a better overall athlete, and is suited for QB. I don't think Tebow is an NFL QB at all. He would be best as an H-back. And, yes, the Broncos traded up for Tebow. Then, they make the mistake this year of drafting a 4-3 OLB in Miller, who is a terrific talent, but not best suited for a 4-3. The pick was Dareus.

You and I never agreed on Tebow, and still don't I see.

I think Tebow will continue to work himself into being a good NFL quarterback. I think he's on his way.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
I dont buy into combine numbers, the combine is a idiotic method of evaluating.

Id rather look at game tape and see what he did, not if he ran a poor 40, or whatever.

Just stupid IMO.

While some combine numbers may be overemphasized by fans, the combine does have a purpose, in putting athletes side by side in a controlled setting to see their overall athleticism side by side (speed, explosiveness, strength, change of direction abilities). I do agree that some of the combine events should be altered (the start to the 40 is silly to me), but it does serve a purpose. I haven't even gone into the medical evals and the interviews, which are gigantic.

Overemphasized events include the forty, QB's throwing the ball, WR's running routes. Underemphasized: shuttle and cone times, which really show change of direction abilities.

Overall, I am a supporter of the combine as one major piece of the puzzle. It is surely not the most important element, but is critical.

They need to do the combine in full pads and helmet. It's surprising how that little bit of extra slows some players down and ruins their vision while it won't phase others.

BTW, MD, how does Kaepernick compare to Tebow coming out of the draft? Didn't Denver trade up for Tebow?

I agree that helmet and pads would be a nice addition to the combine.

I think that Kaepernick is a much better NFL QB prospect than Tebow. Kaepernick has a stronger arm, is a better overall athlete, and is suited for QB. I don't think Tebow is an NFL QB at all. He would be best as an H-back. And, yes, the Broncos traded up for Tebow. Then, they make the mistake this year of drafting a 4-3 OLB in Miller, who is a terrific talent, but not best suited for a 4-3. The pick was Dareus.

You and I never agreed on Tebow, and still don't I see.

I think Tebow will continue to work himself into being a good NFL quarterback. I think he's on his way.

Can't agree on everything. I think TT is going to struggle to beat out KO this offseason, and with Orton in a contract year, I kind of expect solid numbers, and another extension. Fox has pretty much named him the starter this year.

We'll see. Tebow is a really nice kid, and I wish him the best in life.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
I dont buy into combine numbers, the combine is a idiotic method of evaluating.

Id rather look at game tape and see what he did, not if he ran a poor 40, or whatever.

Just stupid IMO.

While some combine numbers may be overemphasized by fans, the combine does have a purpose, in putting athletes side by side in a controlled setting to see their overall athleticism side by side (speed, explosiveness, strength, change of direction abilities). I do agree that some of the combine events should be altered (the start to the 40 is silly to me), but it does serve a purpose. I haven't even gone into the medical evals and the interviews, which are gigantic.

Overemphasized events include the forty, QB's throwing the ball, WR's running routes. Underemphasized: shuttle and cone times, which really show change of direction abilities.

Overall, I am a supporter of the combine as one major piece of the puzzle. It is surely not the most important element, but is critical.

They need to do the combine in full pads and helmet. It's surprising how that little bit of extra slows some players down and ruins their vision while it won't phase others.

BTW, MD, how does Kaepernick compare to Tebow coming out of the draft? Didn't Denver trade up for Tebow?

I agree that helmet and pads would be a nice addition to the combine.

I think that Kaepernick is a much better NFL QB prospect than Tebow. Kaepernick has a stronger arm, is a better overall athlete, and is suited for QB. I don't think Tebow is an NFL QB at all. He would be best as an H-back. And, yes, the Broncos traded up for Tebow. Then, they make the mistake this year of drafting a 4-3 OLB in Miller, who is a terrific talent, but not best suited for a 4-3. The pick was Dareus.

You and I never agreed on Tebow, and still don't I see.

I think Tebow will continue to work himself into being a good NFL quarterback. I think he's on his way.

Can't agree on everything. I think TT is going to struggle to beat out KO this offseason, and with Orton in a contract year, I kind of expect solid numbers, and another extension. Fox has pretty much named him the starter this year.

We'll see. Tebow is a really nice kid, and I wish him the best in life.

I can agree with Tebow backing up Orton. Kyle might be the most underrated QB in the entire league. I'd take him in a second on my team. Kyle is still the top QB on the team, but Tebow has more upside obviously and is still growing after showing some nice play late last season with Orton hurt.

If Denver's OL isn't any better this year, Tebow could find himself seeing a lot more time as a starter, and I think he'll do a good job. If Orton is extended, at some point, the Broncos I have to believe will look to trade one of their QB's. There's already talk that once they can, they're looking to deal Orton to Arizona. Don't know if it'll happen, but Denver should certainly have some suitors.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
I dont buy into combine numbers, the combine is a idiotic method of evaluating.

Id rather look at game tape and see what he did, not if he ran a poor 40, or whatever.

Just stupid IMO.

While some combine numbers may be overemphasized by fans, the combine does have a purpose, in putting athletes side by side in a controlled setting to see their overall athleticism side by side (speed, explosiveness, strength, change of direction abilities). I do agree that some of the combine events should be altered (the start to the 40 is silly to me), but it does serve a purpose. I haven't even gone into the medical evals and the interviews, which are gigantic.

Overemphasized events include the forty, QB's throwing the ball, WR's running routes. Underemphasized: shuttle and cone times, which really show change of direction abilities.

Overall, I am a supporter of the combine as one major piece of the puzzle. It is surely not the most important element, but is critical.

They need to do the combine in full pads and helmet. It's surprising how that little bit of extra slows some players down and ruins their vision while it won't phase others.

BTW, MD, how does Kaepernick compare to Tebow coming out of the draft? Didn't Denver trade up for Tebow?

I agree that helmet and pads would be a nice addition to the combine.

I think that Kaepernick is a much better NFL QB prospect than Tebow. Kaepernick has a stronger arm, is a better overall athlete, and is suited for QB. I don't think Tebow is an NFL QB at all. He would be best as an H-back. And, yes, the Broncos traded up for Tebow. Then, they make the mistake this year of drafting a 4-3 OLB in Miller, who is a terrific talent, but not best suited for a 4-3. The pick was Dareus.

You and I never agreed on Tebow, and still don't I see.

I think Tebow will continue to work himself into being a good NFL quarterback. I think he's on his way.

Can't agree on everything. I think TT is going to struggle to beat out KO this offseason, and with Orton in a contract year, I kind of expect solid numbers, and another extension. Fox has pretty much named him the starter this year.

We'll see. Tebow is a really nice kid, and I wish him the best in life.

I can agree with Tebow backing up Orton. Kyle might be the most underrated QB in the entire league. I'd take him in a second on my team. Kyle is still the top QB on the team, but Tebow has more upside obviously and is still growing after showing some nice play late last season with Orton hurt.

If Denver's OL isn't any better this year, Tebow could find himself seeing a lot more time as a starter, and I think he'll do a good job. If Orton is extended, at some point, the Broncos I have to believe will look to trade one of their QB's. There's already talk that once they can, they're looking to deal Orton to Arizona. Don't know if it'll happen, but Denver should certainly have some suitors.

They simply need to get settled in Denver. That franchise looks wobbly at this point. Maybe Fox can bring some stability.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by fryet:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:

I think you misunderstand the Big Board that OTC and I put out. It is not ranking the players of the draft. It is where we believe the player will be selected. If you have followed me this offseason, you would surely know that I did not believe Cam Newton was the best player in the draft. He was in the first slot in my Big Board. I did think Quinn would be drafted one slot before Smith, but I graded Smith above Quinn.

I do have a Best Available Board, which is a ranking, but that is not the 254 Big Board that I regularly post.

As for the sudden interest in Smith from Niners' fans, more media attention does not make a player better. Just because more 49ers articles are written on him after the draft does not mean he runs faster, jumps higher, bends better, spins faster, hustles more, produces more. It just means that he is suddenly "ours", and all of the weaknesses or limitations he current possesses suddenly, magically disappears, because more attention is placed on him. In other words, why should opinion on Smith shift, suddenly because he is one of ours?He is the same player. Nobody sprinkled magic powder on him after the card was turned in. The same goes for the QB post. If Andy Dalton was the Niners' selection, he'd be at 80%, if Ricky Stanzi, 77%. If Tyrod Taylor, 60. If Fred Taylor of Florida International was picked as the last player in the draft, then maybe 50%.

I have argued this for years, players suddenly do not perform better because they put on a 49ers helmet. There is no magic in them.

I do agree that a player doesn't become better just because the 49ers picked them, but on the other hand I don't think it is good to grade a draft because a player doesn't have elite measurables. If that is the case, then Cam Newton should have been ranked on your board as the best QB available, which I believe you have stated was not the case. At this point, I think the best we can do in grading a draft is the following:

1. Was the player a reach? (i.e. if the 49ers didn't take them, would they have likely been grabbed soon)
2. Does the player fill a need? IMO, choosing BPA will probably net you a C draft. Sure you got players that will help you down the road, but your team did not get significantly better in the short term. For it to be an A draft, you must have a combination of BPA plus need.
3. Does the player fit the scheme that the team uses? For example, are you drafting a 4-3 defensive end, and trying to make him to be an OLB that doesn't really suit his skillset?

You also add an additional criteria that I respect, which is risk. Cam Newton, for example, would be a high risk pick, which I agree is not what you want at the top of the draft. Aldon Smith, imo, is a low risk player. He may not have a high ceiling due to his measurables, but it unlikely that he will be a bust. He certainly has the measurables to be a Pro-Bowl player, considering how many Pro Bowl players are not top 10 picks.

The reason I mention measureables as one factor is simply due to the 7th overall selection. At number seven, you really want a guy with eye-popping measurables for a rush backer. He should be markably quicker, stronger, more agile than the pack, and the combine measurables do not show this to be true. But, it is also true that measurables alone are not the only criteria.

Smith is also switching positions, has played less than two years, and because of that, I feel he is a greater risk than a guy who played more, played in the position he will suit up in the NFL. For instance, let's compare Von Miller and Aldon Smith. Miller played extensively in college, played the 3-4 OLB position, was team captain, and was highly productive in rushing the QB in a conventional way. Smith played less than two years, is switching from a DE to an OLB, and showed greatest productivity rushing from the inside rather than the outside. Miller also displayed the eye-popping numbers you really want for a pick that high.

I don't know where you got your numbers but most of his sacks came from the outside while either as DE or standing up as a OLB, it wasn't till his sophmore year when he came back that the coaches wanted him to move inside on obvious passing downs to get their best rushers on the field and they felt he was stronger and could hold up in the middle. If you watch when he sacks and gets pressure from the outside, he will go where he the OL is giving him the best opening, shows he is thinking when rushing the QB and not just rushing the edge.

Agree that Von Miller is off the wall, but it is mute, you draft the BPA at a position of need that is available at the time. People keep saying shoulda trade back then, but if you saw the stream of the war room, it looked like they tried, but he wasn't about to move back just for the sake of mooving and losing the highest player they (not you or me or we) wanted.

Measurables just confirm a persons talent. As for OLB, Baalke has already said that although he is listed OLB and will drop back into coverage his primary mission is to rush the passer, he will for all intents and purpose will be much like Haley and the elephant position.
I can't wait to see our new Swiss Army Knife in action. I think he's going to be a crowd fav - at least in my book.

Originally posted by NinerGold39:
I can't wait to see our new Swiss Army Knife in action. I think he's going to be a crowd fav - at least in my book.


I hope he gets a shot at LB, but if they put him at FB, he's probably a practice squader at best.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by NinerGold39:
I can't wait to see our new Swiss Army Knife in action. I think he's going to be a crowd fav - at least in my book.


I hope he gets a shot at LB, but if they put him at FB, he's probably a practice squader at best.

I don't think he'll be on the practice squad, even tho he will be listed at FB, because of ST skills and ability should we have injuries to fill in at OLB or DE. Once on the PS, someone can easily pick him up.
I agree with your assessment for the most part.

Aldon Smith has huge upside, but is still a huge gamble. FWIW, I believe they were trying to trade back to pick him, but were unable to find a suitor? But a solid pass rusher is more important than a lockdown CB imo, and I don't know who else was there...

I disagree on the CK pick. I had him valued as early 2nd, maybe even pushing late first-round. The early Locker and Ponder selections really forced the Niners hand, IMO. There were still several teams in need of a QB (OAK, ARI, WAS to name a few) and the Niners had to move. The value difference between 36 and and 45 is not significant to give a low grade.

I would agree with the rest. I am not a fan of teaching players new positions and the highest level of football.

Overall, GJ and thanks for the insight. It's almost dissappointing to read since you nail so many picks!
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by NinerGold39:
I can't wait to see our new Swiss Army Knife in action. I think he's going to be a crowd fav - at least in my book.


I hope he gets a shot at LB, but if they put him at FB, he's probably a practice squader at best.

I don't think he'll be on the practice squad, even tho he will be listed at FB, because of ST skills and ability should we have injuries to fill in at OLB or DE. Once on the PS, someone can easily pick him up.

Didn't he play TE in HS? I don't think it would be too tough of a transition for him to play H-back. The dude is a football player first and a gritty one at that. I don't see him failing at a position such as FB.
MD: at what point does taking a younger player, unlearning less things, and teaching him NFL techniques surpass drafting a 4-year player who has more things to unlearn but is NFL ready in terms of mentality and body?

For example, let's say a player like Tebow, who has 4 years of experience in the NCAA came out after his Sophomore year and Denver uses those extra two years to develop him and teach him everything NFL. Would that make him grade higher at age 22 with 2 years of NFL development or would he grade higher at age 22 coming out of college?

This is where grading a younger player or a raw player involves more variables than grading a Senior out of college.

Let's say Aldon Smith stays in school and comes out 2 years from now or next year. You are saying he would grade top 5? Now, include in your grade this year, that instead of being in college another year or two, he will be on an NFL team learning better things. Shouldn't that be included in a grade?

We took Anthony Davis at a very young age last year. How would he have been slotted if he stayed year and came out in the 2011 draft?

I think there's a reason for Baalke drafting younger players:

  1. Draft a highly talented player who's just as talented as top 5 players at a higher slot later in the draft
  2. Allow that player to get NFL experience instead of NCAA experience
  3. Player may not be ready until 3 years later but in three years, he will be playing like a top 5 draft pick

This is all based on the premises that NFL coaching >> College coaching
[ Edited by Joecool on May 18, 2011 at 9:05 AM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
This is all based on the premises that NFL coaching >> College coaching

Haha that is a huge assumption. Previous coaching staffs have had some gems but overall were pretty unimpressive. IMO MS turned allot of coaches off limiting the quality of coaches available to us to upgrade our staff. Aside from our line coaches, Rathman and Manusky... I would be willing to bet Texas, Alabama, USC, etc. had better coaches than us from top to bottom.

JH on the other hand seems to have a pretty solid network in the NFL and coaches want to work with him rather than have to, which makes a huge difference. I'm excited to see if the staff he put together can start developing players... the niners are one of the bigger more athletic teams in the league, unfortunately skillz are what killz and that is where coaching makes all the difference. If our younger players can "spike" (Bowman, Davis, Mays, Smith, Smith, Smith, Smith , etc.) then our QB, whomever it is, could actually have a decent year in what will surely be a simplified offense from this lockout.
[ Edited by 5280High on May 18, 2011 at 12:42 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
MD: at what point does taking a younger player, unlearning less things, and teaching him NFL techniques surpass drafting a 4-year player who has more things to unlearn but is NFL ready in terms of mentality and body?

For example, let's say a player like Tebow, who has 4 years of experience in the NCAA came out after his Sophomore year and Denver uses those extra two years to develop him and teach him everything NFL. Would that make him grade higher at age 22 with 2 years of NFL development or would he grade higher at age 22 coming out of college?

This is where grading a younger player or a raw player involves more variables than grading a Senior out of college.

Let's say Aldon Smith stays in school and comes out 2 years from now or next year. You are saying he would grade top 5? Now, include in your grade this year, that instead of being in college another year or two, he will be on an NFL team learning better things. Shouldn't that be included in a grade?

We took Anthony Davis at a very young age last year. How would he have been slotted if he stayed year and came out in the 2011 draft?

I think there's a reason for Baalke drafting younger players:

  1. Draft a highly talented player who's just as talented as top 5 players at a higher slot later in the draft
  2. Allow that player to get NFL experience instead of NCAA experience
  3. Player may not be ready until 3 years later but in three years, he will be playing like a top 5 draft pick

This is all based on the premises that NFL coaching >> College coaching

Teams gamble when they select young players in the draft. When a player has established himself as a star for 3-4 years, it shows that they are consistently great, year-in and year-out. When a young player is drafted, the NFL team may end up with a very talented, raw recruit that develops his game, or maybe somebody who flashed for a year or two in college, but cannot maintain greatness as teams begin to game plan for him or figure out that he does not have a complete game.

Staying in college later does not automatically make a player's stock rise. So, I'm not sure either Smith or Davis would be drafted as high if they stayed in college through all of their eligibility. You can ask Jake Locker, Matt Leinart, George Selvie, and others how their stock dropped dramatically as scouts began to see flaws in their game.

Smith simply does not have much game tape, less than two years.

So, Smith could be terrific someday, or could be a bust, or somewhere in-between. I just think that he is a raw guy, and too risky for that 7th overall. That was the main basis of my argument, as well as Smith not being the 7th best player in this draft. I don't think he's even a top 15 player in this draft. But, time will tell.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on May 18, 2011 at 12:47 PM ]
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
I dont buy into combine numbers, the combine is a idiotic method of evaluating.

Id rather look at game tape and see what he did, not if he ran a poor 40, or whatever.

Just stupid IMO.

While some combine numbers may be overemphasized by fans, the combine does have a purpose, in putting athletes side by side in a controlled setting to see their overall athleticism side by side (speed, explosiveness, strength, change of direction abilities). I do agree that some of the combine events should be altered (the start to the 40 is silly to me), but it does serve a purpose. I haven't even gone into the medical evals and the interviews, which are gigantic.

Overemphasized events include the forty, QB's throwing the ball, WR's running routes. Underemphasized: shuttle and cone times, which really show change of direction abilities.

Overall, I am a supporter of the combine as one major piece of the puzzle. It is surely not the most important element, but is critical.

They need to do the combine in full pads and helmet. It's surprising how that little bit of extra slows some players down and ruins their vision while it won't phase others.

BTW, MD, how does Kaepernick compare to Tebow coming out of the draft? Didn't Denver trade up for Tebow?

I agree that helmet and pads would be a nice addition to the combine.

I think that Kaepernick is a much better NFL QB prospect than Tebow. Kaepernick has a stronger arm, is a better overall athlete, and is suited for QB. I don't think Tebow is an NFL QB at all. He would be best as an H-back. And, yes, the Broncos traded up for Tebow. Then, they make the mistake this year of drafting a 4-3 OLB in Miller, who is a terrific talent, but not best suited for a 4-3. The pick was Dareus.

You and I never agreed on Tebow, and still don't I see.

I think Tebow will continue to work himself into being a good NFL quarterback. I think he's on his way.

Can't agree on everything. I think TT is going to struggle to beat out KO this offseason, and with Orton in a contract year, I kind of expect solid numbers, and another extension. Fox has pretty much named him the starter this year.

We'll see. Tebow is a really nice kid, and I wish him the best in life.

I can agree with Tebow backing up Orton. Kyle might be the most underrated QB in the entire league. I'd take him in a second on my team. Kyle is still the top QB on the team, but Tebow has more upside obviously and is still growing after showing some nice play late last season with Orton hurt.

If Denver's OL isn't any better this year, Tebow could find himself seeing a lot more time as a starter, and I think he'll do a good job. If Orton is extended, at some point, the Broncos I have to believe will look to trade one of their QB's. There's already talk that once they can, they're looking to deal Orton to Arizona. Don't know if it'll happen, but Denver should certainly have some suitors.

That would suck. I think Orton could put up some numbers on the NFC West in that Cards offense.
Originally posted by WINiner:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
I dont buy into combine numbers, the combine is a idiotic method of evaluating.

Id rather look at game tape and see what he did, not if he ran a poor 40, or whatever.

Just stupid IMO.

While some combine numbers may be overemphasized by fans, the combine does have a purpose, in putting athletes side by side in a controlled setting to see their overall athleticism side by side (speed, explosiveness, strength, change of direction abilities). I do agree that some of the combine events should be altered (the start to the 40 is silly to me), but it does serve a purpose. I haven't even gone into the medical evals and the interviews, which are gigantic.

Overemphasized events include the forty, QB's throwing the ball, WR's running routes. Underemphasized: shuttle and cone times, which really show change of direction abilities.

Overall, I am a supporter of the combine as one major piece of the puzzle. It is surely not the most important element, but is critical.

They need to do the combine in full pads and helmet. It's surprising how that little bit of extra slows some players down and ruins their vision while it won't phase others.

BTW, MD, how does Kaepernick compare to Tebow coming out of the draft? Didn't Denver trade up for Tebow?

I agree that helmet and pads would be a nice addition to the combine.

I think that Kaepernick is a much better NFL QB prospect than Tebow. Kaepernick has a stronger arm, is a better overall athlete, and is suited for QB. I don't think Tebow is an NFL QB at all. He would be best as an H-back. And, yes, the Broncos traded up for Tebow. Then, they make the mistake this year of drafting a 4-3 OLB in Miller, who is a terrific talent, but not best suited for a 4-3. The pick was Dareus.

You and I never agreed on Tebow, and still don't I see.

I think Tebow will continue to work himself into being a good NFL quarterback. I think he's on his way.

Can't agree on everything. I think TT is going to struggle to beat out KO this offseason, and with Orton in a contract year, I kind of expect solid numbers, and another extension. Fox has pretty much named him the starter this year.

We'll see. Tebow is a really nice kid, and I wish him the best in life.

I can agree with Tebow backing up Orton. Kyle might be the most underrated QB in the entire league. I'd take him in a second on my team. Kyle is still the top QB on the team, but Tebow has more upside obviously and is still growing after showing some nice play late last season with Orton hurt.

If Denver's OL isn't any better this year, Tebow could find himself seeing a lot more time as a starter, and I think he'll do a good job. If Orton is extended, at some point, the Broncos I have to believe will look to trade one of their QB's. There's already talk that once they can, they're looking to deal Orton to Arizona. Don't know if it'll happen, but Denver should certainly have some suitors.

That would suck. I think Orton could put up some numbers on the NFC West in that Cards offense.

i dont think orton would do too great in zona they are gonna lose breaston and orton doesnt really have a rocket arm that fitz needs to be the elite WR they will be a 5 to 6 win team but i dont see anything more than that