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MadDog's Final Wrap Up Grade for Niners

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Mad Dog thought Adam Carriker should have been the pick over Willis, and he thought Derek Smith was a good player. I'd take his analysis with a heavy grain of salt. Dude has no clue what he is talking about.

You have 16 posts. How do you know what MD's predictions were in years past?

Forgot my old password. Had to make a new account. Thanks for wondering though.

Hey - you're welcome. Thanks for being sarcastic, too.


Did I get another warning for "being sarcastic"? lmao.

Not at all. But you are about to be banned for being a jerk. lmao.

Being a jerk= bannable offense?

Looks like you need to be banned as well.
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Mad Dog thought Adam Carriker should have been the pick over Willis, and he thought Derek Smith was a good player. I'd take his analysis with a heavy grain of salt. Dude has no clue what he is talking about.

You have 16 posts. How do you know what MD's predictions were in years past?

Forgot my old password. Had to make a new account. Thanks for wondering though.

Hey - you're welcome. Thanks for being sarcastic, too.


Did I get another warning for "being sarcastic"? lmao.

Not at all. But you are about to be banned for being a jerk. lmao.

Being a jerk= bannable offense?

Looks like you need to be banned as well.

The gift of knowledge:

High Maintenance Clause

Any member who occupies a majority of admin or moderator time unnecessarily will be shown the door.


Learn it. Know it. Live it.
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Mad Dog thought Adam Carriker should have been the pick over Willis, and he thought Derek Smith was a good player. I'd take his analysis with a heavy grain of salt. Dude has no clue what he is talking about.

You have 16 posts. How do you know what MD's predictions were in years past?

Forgot my old password. Had to make a new account. Thanks for wondering though.

Hey - you're welcome. Thanks for being sarcastic, too.


Did I get another warning for "being sarcastic"? lmao.

Not at all. But you are about to be banned for being a jerk. lmao.

Being a jerk= bannable offense?

Looks like you need to be banned as well.

The gift of knowledge:

High Maintenance Clause

Any member who occupies a majority of admin or moderator time unnecessarily will be shown the door.


Learn it. Know it. Live it.




kaboom............mans got to know his limitations
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by MadDog49er:

I never stated Smith was unathletic. I stated that for the 7th overall, you really want an elite athlete. And, the numbers show, to me, that he is a solid straightline rusher, but doesn't have the elite physical skills to be worthy of the 7th overall. I want a guy who has violent hands, but also a guy who can bend. Guys who are one-trick ponies just can't cut it in the NFL.

A couple of years ago, I was really high on Brian Orakpo. I saw a complete player, a man, enter the league. That is the value I want from a pash rusher, someone who is not a project, but a guy who can compete at a very high level from Day One, and has shown that he can beat a blocker in a wide variety of ways.

I just don't see that from Aldon Smith right now, and while he may be able to develop those skills, the risk is too high for the 7th overall, in this position on the field. He is raw, like sushi, and we have gambled big on him.

Manny Lawson sure looked like an elite athlete. How has that worked out?

You really seem to have failed in your evaluation here. Maybe you only watched him play after he broke his leg or something....

Honestly, I just don't know what to tell you if you think he's a "one trick pony". You're just wrong, plain and simple.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you after this post.

My arguments have been made for me.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,505
Mad, who woiuld you have taken at #7?

[ Edited by mayo49 on May 7, 2011 at 08:01:03 ]
i bet he wanted to go after gabbert or prince.
Originally posted by mayo49:
Mad, who woiuld you have taken at #7?

Earlier in this thread, post 189 on page 13, I put my thoughts on this question.

cheers.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,505
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Mad, who woiuld you have taken at #7?

Earlier in this thread, post 189 on page 13, I put my thoughts on this question.

cheers.

Oh, my bad, Mad.
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:

I never stated Smith was unathletic. I stated that for the 7th overall, you really want an elite athlete. And, the numbers show, to me, that he is a solid straightline rusher, but doesn't have the elite physical skills to be worthy of the 7th overall. I want a guy who has violent hands, but also a guy who can bend, a guy who has shown that he can effectively and consistently beat the LT's he will face in the NFL. Guys who are one-trick ponies just can't cut it in the NFL.

A couple of years ago, I was really high on Brian Orakpo. I saw a complete player, a man, not a developmental player, enter the league. That is the value I want from a pash rusher, someone who is not a project, but a guy who can compete at a very high level from Day One, and has shown that he can beat a blocker in a wide variety of ways.

I just don't see that from Aldon Smith right now, and while he may be able to develop those skills, the risk is too high for the 7th overall, in this position on the field. He is raw, like sushi, and we have gambled big on him.

Manny Lawson sure looked like an elite athlete. How has that worked out?

You really seem to have failed in your evaluation here. Maybe you only watched him play after he broke his leg or something....

Honestly, I just don't know what to tell you if you think he's a "one trick pony". You're just wrong, plain and simple.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you after this post.

My arguments have been made for me.

A fair question on Manny. The issue with Manny is that he was a tall, lanky, 245 pound player coming out of college, and has never been a good fit as a 3-4 rush backer. He was a one-trick pony, beat the guy to the edge. When the team shifted to a 4-3 early in his career, due to injuries, he played his best. He would be an exceptional Tampa-2 OLB. So, to me, Manny is simply in the wrong system.

I think you are missing the point. Simply being an elite athlete does not automatically qualify someone for a top level pick. In my thinking, they should be a rare athlete ( Smith's mid 4.7 time is not outstanding, it is a little better than average; his change of direction numbers are very average; and he doesn't show elite strength or explosiveness measureables), experienced (Smith has played less than two years of college football), and someone who shows a wide variety of moves to get to the QB at the OLB position. Right now, his best move is whacking an off-balance interior lineman and going around him. A large number of his sacks came in passing downs, when put inside as a DT to rush against lumbering college guards. He is not going to be in that set in the NFL. I don't see him consistently beating LT's on tape, and that is something to be slightly concerned about, especially when using the 7th overall.

I think people continue to miss the most important point, and I will state it once again. I am not saying Smith is a bad football player, or a player who will be a poor NFL player. I have already stated that he was the best OLB on my board when the Niners were on the clock. What I am saying is that he is a risky, developmental guy, who is much better value as a mid-late first rounder. The issue is the 7th overall selection. That is why I graded the pick as a C, not an F, like I did last year with the Taylor Mays selection.

In the draft, the goal is to optimize the value of each selection. If the team had selected Colin Kaepernick at 7, the board would be furious. Are they furious that he was selected by us in the second round? No. It is largely celebrated. So, it comes down to getting the most value for your pick. And, to me, Smith is a tremendous risk at 7, especially for a team that needs to start hitting on its' picks.

Finally, you appear very emotional about my criticism. That is unnecessary. It is OK to disagree.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on May 7, 2011 at 08:52:25 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Mad, who woiuld you have taken at #7?

Earlier in this thread, post 189 on page 13, I put my thoughts on this question.

cheers.

No problem.
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,934
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by TheSaboteur:
Mad Dog thought Adam Carriker should have been the pick over Willis, and he thought Derek Smith was a good player. I'd take his analysis with a heavy grain of salt. Dude has no clue what he is talking about.

You have 16 posts. How do you know what MD's predictions were in years past?

Forgot my old password. Had to make a new account. Thanks for wondering though.

Hey - you're welcome. Thanks for being sarcastic, too.


#WINNING.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,539
This draft is marked by trade that could not be made in the first and the trade that was made in the second.

On one hand, we do nor know, although we can speculate, what exactly Baalke wanted to accomplish with the trade. But, I do think that we can agree that Baalke felt it was a little early to pick Smith.

Looking the players drafted shortly after we picked Aldon Smith, I can see only two players besides Smith that might have been of interest, J.J. Watt and Ryan Kerrigan.

Given our need at outside linebacker I think, and this is only me thinking, the choices were either Aldon Smith and an extra pick or Ryan Kerrigan and an extra pick. I would have liked either of those choices, but given everything I remain pleased with the selection of Aldon Smith.

I think that Harbaugh wanted Colin Kaepernick from the git go. The war room was, it seems, jubilant when the Bengals selected Andy Dalton.

I give Baalke and Harbaugh an B plus on the first two picks. If they had been able to make the trade and get a pick and either Smith or Kerrigan, I would give them a A.

In my estimation, Aldon Smith is going to be a very good player and I think that Kaepernick will end up being the best QB in this draft class.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:

I never stated Smith was unathletic. I stated that for the 7th overall, you really want an elite athlete. And, the numbers show, to me, that he is a solid straightline rusher, but doesn't have the elite physical skills to be worthy of the 7th overall. I want a guy who has violent hands, but also a guy who can bend, a guy who has shown that he can effectively and consistently beat the LT's he will face in the NFL. Guys who are one-trick ponies just can't cut it in the NFL.

A couple of years ago, I was really high on Brian Orakpo. I saw a complete player, a man, not a developmental player, enter the league. That is the value I want from a pash rusher, someone who is not a project, but a guy who can compete at a very high level from Day One, and has shown that he can beat a blocker in a wide variety of ways.

I just don't see that from Aldon Smith right now, and while he may be able to develop those skills, the risk is too high for the 7th overall, in this position on the field. He is raw, like sushi, and we have gambled big on him.

Manny Lawson sure looked like an elite athlete. How has that worked out?

You really seem to have failed in your evaluation here. Maybe you only watched him play after he broke his leg or something....

Honestly, I just don't know what to tell you if you think he's a "one trick pony". You're just wrong, plain and simple.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you after this post.

My arguments have been made for me.

A fair question on Manny. The issue with Manny is that he was a tall, lanky, 245 pound player coming out of college, and has never been a good fit as a 3-4 rush backer. He was a one-trick pony, beat the guy to the edge. When the team shifted to a 4-3 early in his career, due to injuries, he played his best. He would be an exceptional Tampa-2 OLB. So, to me, Manny is simply in the wrong system.

I think you are missing the point. Simply being an elite athlete does not automatically qualify someone for a top level pick. In my thinking, they should be a rare athlete ( Smith's mid 4.7 time is not outstanding, it is a little better than average; his change of direction numbers are very average; and he doesn't show elite strength or explosiveness measureables), experienced (Smith has played less than two years of college football), and someone who shows a wide variety of moves to get to the QB at the OLB position. Right now, his best move is whacking an off-balance interior lineman and going around him. A large number of his sacks came in passing downs, when put inside as a DT to rush against lumbering college guards. He is not going to be in that set in the NFL. I don't see him consistently beating LT's on tape, and that is something to be slightly concerned about, especially when using the 7th overall.

I think people continue to miss the most important point, and I will state it once again. I am not saying Smith is a bad football player, or a player who will be a poor NFL player. I have already stated that he was the best OLB on my board when the Niners were on the clock. What I am saying is that he is a risky, developmental guy, who is much better value as a mid-late first rounder. The issue is the 7th overall selection. That is why I graded the pick as a C, not an F, like I did last year with the Taylor Mays selection.

In the draft, the goal is to optimize the value of each selection. If the team had selected Colin Kaepernick at 7, the board would be furious. Are they furious that he was selected by us in the second round? No. It is largely celebrated. So, it comes down to getting the most value for your pick. And, to me, Smith is a tremendous risk at 7, especially for a team that needs to start hitting on its' picks.

Finally, you appear very emotional about my criticism. That is unnecessary. It is OK to disagree.

You list your reasons for your opinion. But they cause you more than a little difficulty.

You initially stated that you do not believe Aldon Smith to be an "elite" athlete, based on your review of his combine numbers. However, his tape and his history, together with his measurables, and even a review of the very same combine numbers you rely on, appear to undermine your position. (You say his "mid 4.7 time is not outstanding; its a little better than averge"--making it, technically, "elite.") Hence your backpedalling from the "he's not an elite athlete" statement.

He can do a standing backflip, at 6'4" and 260 lbs! If you don't think that makes him "elite," go out to your front lawn and try it yourself. (Be sure to get someone to video and post it for us all to see.) Plus Aldon's got a 40" vertical! He's got a 7"2" wingspan!

The tape I've seen on the guy shows someone who can rush on the edge--per Warren Sapp, watching the same clip, he's got a "dip" move that comes naturally, you just can't teach it. (See Manny Lawson, six years later and he's never learned that same move.) He also has natural strength and quickness that enables him to move inside and rush effectively.

Which brings us to the essence of your opinion: he's not a bad athlete, or a bad football player, you just don't think he's worth the 7th pick overall.

No one may know the answer to that question for awhile. But based on his elite athletic ability, the numbers he put up in college, his proven toughness, his good character, and his vast potential, I have to disagree with you on this one. I believe he was well worth the 7th. At a position of need for the Niners as well.

Ask yourself, would Justin Smith have been worth the 7th pick overall this year? Clearly he would have been, or much higher. Well, we got a guy at #7 who broke Justin's sack record at Missouri. As a freshman!

Looking forward to seeing that video of you doing a standing backflip! Better wear a helmet! And don't cheat and use a trampoline, that wouldn't be fair.

Go Niners!
Originally posted by buck:
This draft is marked by trade that could not be made in the first and the trade that was made in the second.

On one hand, we do nor know, although we can speculate, what exactly Baalke wanted to accomplish with the trade. But, I do think that we can agree that Baalke felt it was a little early to pick Smith.

Looking the players drafted shortly after we picked Aldon Smith, I can see only two players besides Smith that might have been of interest, J.J. Watt and Ryan Kerrigan.

Given our need at outside linebacker I think, and this is only me thinking, the choices were either Aldon Smith and an extra pick or Ryan Kerrigan and an extra pick. I would have liked either of those choices, but given everything I remain pleased with the selection of Aldon Smith.

I think that Harbaugh wanted Colin Kaepernick from the git go. The war room was, it seems, jubilant when the Bengals selected Andy Dalton.

I give Baalke and Harbaugh an B plus on the first two picks. If they had been able to make the trade and get a pick and either Smith or Kerrigan, I would give them a A.

In my estimation, Aldon Smith is going to be a very good player and I think that Kaepernick will end up being the best QB in this draft class.

Good post! I agree, for the most part.

I'm not sure I agree that Baalke thought it was "a little early" for Smith at #7. Who knows, for sure. Others were thinking we'd pick Amakumura, who fell precipitously, or Quinn, who has a medical issue. So, who else was there at #7? Gabbert? Harbaugh obviously didn't want him at QB.

Would it have been better to trade back and get the same guy, plus another pick? Well sure. But that doesn't mean it should have happened. Baalke couldn't make it happen, so it was probably an unlikely scenario to begin with.

Aldon Smith appears to have great potential. A higher ceiling than Qunn or Kerrigan at OLB. The more I see of the guy, the more I like.

Can't wait to see him on the field. He should get his first NFL sack(s) against Seattle!
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:

I never stated Smith was unathletic. I stated that for the 7th overall, you really want an elite athlete. And, the numbers show, to me, that he is a solid straightline rusher, but doesn't have the elite physical skills to be worthy of the 7th overall. I want a guy who has violent hands, but also a guy who can bend, a guy who has shown that he can effectively and consistently beat the LT's he will face in the NFL. Guys who are one-trick ponies just can't cut it in the NFL.

A couple of years ago, I was really high on Brian Orakpo. I saw a complete player, a man, not a developmental player, enter the league. That is the value I want from a pash rusher, someone who is not a project, but a guy who can compete at a very high level from Day One, and has shown that he can beat a blocker in a wide variety of ways.

I just don't see that from Aldon Smith right now, and while he may be able to develop those skills, the risk is too high for the 7th overall, in this position on the field. He is raw, like sushi, and we have gambled big on him.

Manny Lawson sure looked like an elite athlete. How has that worked out?

You really seem to have failed in your evaluation here. Maybe you only watched him play after he broke his leg or something....

Honestly, I just don't know what to tell you if you think he's a "one trick pony". You're just wrong, plain and simple.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you after this post.

My arguments have been made for me.

A fair question on Manny. The issue with Manny is that he was a tall, lanky, 245 pound player coming out of college, and has never been a good fit as a 3-4 rush backer. He was a one-trick pony, beat the guy to the edge. When the team shifted to a 4-3 early in his career, due to injuries, he played his best. He would be an exceptional Tampa-2 OLB. So, to me, Manny is simply in the wrong system.

I think you are missing the point. Simply being an elite athlete does not automatically qualify someone for a top level pick. In my thinking, they should be a rare athlete ( Smith's mid 4.7 time is not outstanding, it is a little better than average; his change of direction numbers are very average; and he doesn't show elite strength or explosiveness measureables), experienced (Smith has played less than two years of college football), and someone who shows a wide variety of moves to get to the QB at the OLB position. Right now, his best move is whacking an off-balance interior lineman and going around him. A large number of his sacks came in passing downs, when put inside as a DT to rush against lumbering college guards. He is not going to be in that set in the NFL. I don't see him consistently beating LT's on tape, and that is something to be slightly concerned about, especially when using the 7th overall.

I think people continue to miss the most important point, and I will state it once again. I am not saying Smith is a bad football player, or a player who will be a poor NFL player. I have already stated that he was the best OLB on my board when the Niners were on the clock. What I am saying is that he is a risky, developmental guy, who is much better value as a mid-late first rounder. The issue is the 7th overall selection. That is why I graded the pick as a C, not an F, like I did last year with the Taylor Mays selection.

In the draft, the goal is to optimize the value of each selection. If the team had selected Colin Kaepernick at 7, the board would be furious. Are they furious that he was selected by us in the second round? No. It is largely celebrated. So, it comes down to getting the most value for your pick. And, to me, Smith is a tremendous risk at 7, especially for a team that needs to start hitting on its' picks.

Finally, you appear very emotional about my criticism. That is unnecessary. It is OK to disagree.

You list your reasons for your opinion. But they cause you more than a little difficulty.

You initially stated that you do not believe Aldon Smith to be an "elite" athlete, based on your review of his combine numbers. However, his tape and his history, together with his measurables, and even a review of the very same combine numbers you rely on, appear to undermine your position. (You say his "mid 4.7 time is not outstanding; its a little better than averge"--making it, technically, "elite.") Hence your backpedalling from the "he's not an elite athlete" statement.

He can do a standing backflip, at 6'4" and 260 lbs! If you don't think that makes him "elite," go out to your front lawn and try it yourself. (Be sure to get someone to video and post it for us all to see.) Plus Aldon's got a 40" vertical! He's got a 7"2" wingspan!

The tape I've seen on the guy shows someone who can rush on the edge--per Warren Sapp, watching the same clip, he's got a "dip" move that comes naturally, you just can't teach it. (See Manny Lawson, six years later and he's never learned that same move.) He also has natural strength and quickness that enables him to move inside and rush effectively.

Which brings us to the essence of your opinion: he's not a bad athlete, or a bad football player, you just don't think he's worth the 7th pick overall.

No one may know the answer to that question for awhile. But based on his elite athletic ability, the numbers he put up in college, his proven toughness, his good character, and his vast potential, I have to disagree with you on this one. I believe he was well worth the 7th. At a position of need for the Niners as well.

Ask yourself, would Justin Smith have been worth the 7th pick overall this year? Clearly he would have been, or much higher. Well, we got a guy at #7 who broke Justin's sack record at Missouri. As a freshman!

Looking forward to seeing that video of you doing a standing backflip! Better wear a helmet! And don't cheat and use a trampoline, that wouldn't be fair.

Go Niners!

What he said!
Oh and MD what team did you work for and how many drafts have you done for NFL Teams? Gil Brandt in his draft evaluations had Smith as a Top 10 Draftee, East Coast Sporting News had him at 11 and possibly moving into the top 10! Brandt said he is Secretariat and the rest are plough horses(his words on Sirus Radio's NFL Channel, not mine)! When one of the other draftees was asked(it might have been Bowers, not sure) who the best DE in the draft was after him. He said Aldon Smith without a doubt, the toughest player he's ever seen, and he said I would never say that he's not as good as me!
So the EXPERTS think this kid is a good solid player witha great upside that was not a reach at 7! So again MD what clubs did you work for in player personnel and what drafts were you involved in at the pro level? Oh and I can't wait to see the video of you doing that backflip, just be sure you have the Paramedics standing by with their C-Spine collars!