MadDog's Final Wrap Up Grade for Niners

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by destroyer:
Your analysis is pretty weak. There is a good reason that scouts spend a whole year in there evaluations of potential draft picks. They study every inch of game film from high school through college, and talk to every coach that came in contact with that person. You read what other's have written and put your own spin on the info as do most analysts. Case in point you gave Aldon Smith a C grade when most scouting departments had him going at #6 through #15' which is an A or A- grade. Where did your info come from for a C grade, draft media I'm sure, not real evaluation. Also a big named "big college" player does not equal NFL success, and likewise a "small program" obscure player does not mean a lesser talent. We have to trust our scouting department to correctly evaluate those prospects wherever they come from, and neither you or I are really qualified to do that!
I give your evaluation a D+.

Care to provide your own analysis in addition to attacking the OP's?

I actually think his point has validity even without providing his own analysis. I actually think it would contradict his point to a certain extent.

We have very limited access to game tape, and a lot of game action happens either off camera (receivers and secondary) or in the midst of a huge clusterf**k (offensive/defensive lines) with obstructed views. I'd also have a hard time envisioning someone having enough time to adequately evaluate the amount of potential prospects that there are in a thorough manner.

As a result, I think it's a reasonable POV.

Unless MD is a Niners scout and is building up a database of would be picks to show to Jed for a backstabbing promotion to knock Baalke off his seat.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by destroyer:
Your analysis is pretty weak. There is a good reason that scouts spend a whole year in there evaluations of potential draft picks. They study every inch of game film from high school through college, and talk to every coach that came in contact with that person. You read what other's have written and put your own spin on the info as do most analysts. Case in point you gave Aldon Smith a C grade when most scouting departments had him going at #6 through #15' which is an A or A- grade. Where did your info come from for a C grade, draft media I'm sure, not real evaluation. Also a big named "big college" player does not equal NFL success, and likewise a "small program" obscure player does not mean a lesser talent. We have to trust our scouting department to correctly evaluate those prospects wherever they come from, and neither you or I are really qualified to do that!
I give your evaluation a D+.

Care to provide your own analysis in addition to attacking the OP's?

I actually think his point has validity even without providing his own analysis. I actually think it would contradict his point to a certain extent.

We have very limited access to game tape, and a lot of game action happens either off camera (receivers and secondary) or in the midst of a huge clusterf**k (offensive/defensive lines) with obstructed views. I'd also have a hard time envisioning someone having enough time to adequately evaluate the amount of potential prospects that there are in a thorough manner.

As a result, I think it's a reasonable POV.

Agree that the point is reasonable, but the delivery was unduly harsh. Given the tone of superiority that was taken, I wondered if the poster had his or her own substantive opinion beyond (and I'm paraphrasing) "I have assumed that you have not done the same level of due diligence of any of the professional scouts. Therefore, your analysis is invalrod."

Giving an opinion about a player is not the same as evaluating that player. I have no problem with peoples opinion, except when it contradicts in depth evaluation by those who are paid by the ownership to get it right. If I sound superior I don't intend to, Im saying that neither you nor I ( yes I included myself) have the time experience or resources available to form anything more than an educated guess about the ability of a prospect. If my OPINION is harsh then I apologize, I thought I was being reasonable!

Originally posted by destroyer:
Giving an opinion about a player is not the same as evaluating that player. I have no problem with peoples opinion, except when it contradicts in depth evaluation by those who are paid by the ownership to get it right. If I sound superior I don't intend to, Im saying that neither you nor I ( yes I included myself) have the time experience or resources available to form anything more than an educated guess about the ability of a prospect. If my OPINION is harsh then I apologize, I thought I was being reasonable!

Here's the problem. Sometimes the opinions of those who get paid, simply put, are flat out wrong. Thus, you see certain players that fail in the NFL.

There is nothing wrong with someone having an opinion, EVEN if they disagree with the paid individuals. If they have valid reasoning / support for why they feel that way, it is perfectly fine to disagree with a paid professional, my friend.

Why? Because paid professionals on every team in this league disagree with each other on certain players too, so why does it matter if someone here -- who can support their opinion with a valid argument -- isn't paid to evaluate someone?

I mean, that makes sense right?

There's a difference between saying, "OH EM GEE DOOOD. HE SUXZ." without any sort of basis for it, and saying, "Based on yadda-yadda, so on and so on, I feel this way..."

Originally posted by Joecool:
Interesting listening to Razzano and playing speed saying that some teams will put the players fastest 40-time on their board so if he ran a 4.3 at the combine, that's what the team would grade the player by but when he was with the Niners, he said they put the players in-game 40-time.

So, I guess scouts will have a stopwatch on hand and time a player during a game or if the film is raw footage with no speed altercations, then they time when viewing the film. That's very interesting.

What he means is like the GOAT, Mr. Rice, people rave about Rice, except his 40 shied away the teams, but Bill Watched tape and said he never say anyone catche Rice from behind.

However, I have said before, teams should time them with their pads on.

Originally posted by destroyer:
Giving an opinion about a player is not the same as evaluating that player. I have no problem with peoples opinion, except when it contradicts in depth evaluation by those who are paid by the ownership to get it right. If I sound superior I don't intend to, Im saying that neither you nor I ( yes I included myself) have the time experience or resources available to form anything more than an educated guess about the ability of a prospect. If my OPINION is harsh then I apologize, I thought I was being reasonable!

Thanks for clarifying, dude!

We wont know until they hit the field.....4 months to go

Originally posted by Firenze:
OTC, MD and others draft guru... A simple question. You are Baalke, at n. 7, and 49ers pick is...

If you think Gabbert is a franchise QB, and you see no hope for Smith or another existing young veteran QB coming in to be the future leader for the team (Kolb, etc.) then Gabbert makes a lot of sense. However, for me, I still see a ray of hope with Smith, so I would have let Harbaugh play out this season with Smith and see if he can improve his game.

The greatest need is CB, unless they have something worked out with Clements and his giant contract. So, Prince would be an understandable selection. However, to me, Prince is not worth the value of the 7th overall. He is a good player, but in my estimation, not elite.

At the same time, the best player on my board was JJ Watt. If the team feels that Franklin is gone and that Sopoaga needs to move to NT, Watt would be my choice.

To me, the team would have been best served to explore trading up to five and selecting Patrick Peterson, if the Cards would be willing to make that deal. We would be getting an elite player at a key position of need, and the loss of the 3rd rounder, would not be prohibitive for me.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on May 5, 2011 at 19:13:10 ]

Originally posted by destroyer:
Your analysis is pretty weak. There is a good reason that scouts spend a whole year in there evaluations of potential draft picks. They study every inch of game film from high school through college, and talk to every coach that came in contact with that person. You read what other's have written and put your own spin on the info as do most analysts. Case in point you gave Aldon Smith a C grade when most scouting departments had him going at #6 through #15' which is an A or A- grade. Where did your info come from for a C grade, draft media I'm sure, not real evaluation. Also a big named "big college" player does not equal NFL success, and likewise a "small program" obscure player does not mean a lesser talent. We have to trust our scouting department to correctly evaluate those prospects wherever they come from, and neither you or I are really qualified to do that!
I give your evaluation a D+.

I had Smith going to the Texans at 11, but that doesn't mean he will end up being the 11th best player in this draft....or 7th where the Niners selected. Please re-read my critique of the player in this thread.

Famous or infamous players do not matter to me in my projections and evaluations. Some of the players I believe will have an excellent chance for success are ones that most college football fans do not know.

Originally posted by WildBill:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Interesting listening to Razzano and playing speed saying that some teams will put the players fastest 40-time on their board so if he ran a 4.3 at the combine, that's what the team would grade the player by but when he was with the Niners, he said they put the players in-game 40-time.

So, I guess scouts will have a stopwatch on hand and time a player during a game or if the film is raw footage with no speed altercations, then they time when viewing the film. That's very interesting.

What he means is like the GOAT, Mr. Rice, people rave about Rice, except his 40 shied away the teams, but Bill Watched tape and said he never say anyone catche Rice from behind.

However, I have said before, teams should time them with their pads on.

I, for the life of me, have never understood why they run in just shorts and a t-shirt on a track field. What part of the game is that?

Originally posted by destroyer:
Giving an opinion about a player is not the same as evaluating that player. I have no problem with peoples opinion, except when it contradicts in depth evaluation by those who are paid by the ownership to get it right. If I sound superior I don't intend to, Im saying that neither you nor I ( yes I included myself) have the time experience or resources available to form anything more than an educated guess about the ability of a prospect. If my OPINION is harsh then I apologize, I thought I was being reasonable!

You have to understand that some teams may think Aldon Smith is a high first round value, while others may think he warrants a second or third round grade. Very few players are universally graded the same.

So, a diversity of opinions on a player is the norm for NFL teams (Dallas had Navarro Bowman in the 2010 draft near the top of their draft board, which would have been a first round grade, but he fell well into the third round), and often inside NFL teams where the scouting department and coach/GM may have sizable differences in opinion on a specific player.

Originally posted by LAFortyNinerfan:

Originally posted by WildBill:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Interesting listening to Razzano and playing speed saying that some teams will put the players fastest 40-time on their board so if he ran a 4.3 at the combine, that's what the team would grade the player by but when he was with the Niners, he said they put the players in-game 40-time.

So, I guess scouts will have a stopwatch on hand and time a player during a game or if the film is raw footage with no speed altercations, then they time when viewing the film. That's very interesting.

What he means is like the GOAT, Mr. Rice, people rave about Rice, except his 40 shied away the teams, but Bill Watched tape and said he never say anyone catche Rice from behind.

However, I have said before, teams should time them with their pads on.

I, for the life of me, have never understood why they run in just shorts and a t-shirt on a track field. What part of the game is that?

I have advocated for years now that in addition to wearing pads and a helmet, players, depending on their position, should begin running the combine forty in a two-point, three-point, or four point stance. I would also time players in specific on the field drills.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by destroyer:
Your analysis is pretty weak. There is a good reason that scouts spend a whole year in there evaluations of potential draft picks. They study every inch of game film from high school through college, and talk to every coach that came in contact with that person. You read what other's have written and put your own spin on the info as do most analysts. Case in point you gave Aldon Smith a C grade when most scouting departments had him going at #6 through #15' which is an A or A- grade. Where did your info come from for a C grade, draft media I'm sure, not real evaluation. Also a big named "big college" player does not equal NFL success, and likewise a "small program" obscure player does not mean a lesser talent. We have to trust our scouting department to correctly evaluate those prospects wherever they come from, and neither you or I are really qualified to do that!
I give your evaluation a D+.

I had Smith going to the Texans at 11, but that doesn't mean he will end up being the 11th best player in this draft....or 7th where the Niners selected. Please re-read my critique of the player in this thread.

Famous or infamous players do not matter to me in my projections and evaluations. Some of the players I believe will have an excellent chance for success are ones that most college football fans do not know.

Gotta admit you had Iupati flagged months before the Senior Bowl.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by LAFortyNinerfan:

Originally posted by WildBill:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Interesting listening to Razzano and playing speed saying that some teams will put the players fastest 40-time on their board so if he ran a 4.3 at the combine, that's what the team would grade the player by but when he was with the Niners, he said they put the players in-game 40-time.

So, I guess scouts will have a stopwatch on hand and time a player during a game or if the film is raw footage with no speed altercations, then they time when viewing the film. That's very interesting.

What he means is like the GOAT, Mr. Rice, people rave about Rice, except his 40 shied away the teams, but Bill Watched tape and said he never say anyone catche Rice from behind.

However, I have said before, teams should time them with their pads on.

I, for the life of me, have never understood why they run in just shorts and a t-shirt on a track field. What part of the game is that?

I have advocated for years now that in addition to wearing pads and a helmet, players, depending on their position, should begin running the combine forty in a two-point, three-point, or four point stance. I would also time players in specific on the field drills.

Funk Dat!

Keep the combine the way it is. It's just ritual and entertainment now, anyway. Take it for what it is and get what you can from it... the educated people know what matters and what doesn't when it comes to evaluations.

All you need to know you can get from game film, IMO. Well, that and interviews/medical.

That's why I'd have to disagree with you about Aldon Smith. The kid is just a natural pass rusher. I don't need his shuttle time or cone time to tell me he can change direction well enough to make one of the top tackles in this class look silly (Solder). I've seen it with my own two eyes.

He's just got a different way of beating linemen than other rushers do. He's really upright and doesn't have a lot of bend to turn the corner, but that's not his game. He uses violent hand punch to beat the tackle at their own game (since his arms are usually longer than theirs) and has a quick sidestep which he combines to create separation.

The drills at the combine don't really account for his style. Just because he doesn't fit your mold doesn't mean he can't get the job done. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I personally think that his skillset is suited to rushing from a standing position. Hell, he's an upright rusher to start anyway, right? Lulz.

Point is, he has the tools to succeed. You make him sound like a stiff, unathletic, waste of space.

Remember this: Aldon Smith played last season on a broken leg. You know he lost some time in his training during the season because of that. You know he must have been playing catch-up getting back into his normal shape (while adding 10 lbs. to his playing weight), so his combine measurables are probably not as good as they would have been.

Anyway, he can do a standing backflip. I'm sold.

link

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by destroyer:
Your analysis is pretty weak. There is a good reason that scouts spend a whole year in there evaluations of potential draft picks. They study every inch of game film from high school through college, and talk to every coach that came in contact with that person. You read what other's have written and put your own spin on the info as do most analysts. Case in point you gave Aldon Smith a C grade when most scouting departments had him going at #6 through #15' which is an A or A- grade. Where did your info come from for a C grade, draft media I'm sure, not real evaluation. Also a big named "big college" player does not equal NFL success, and likewise a "small program" obscure player does not mean a lesser talent. We have to trust our scouting department to correctly evaluate those prospects wherever they come from, and neither you or I are really qualified to do that!
I give your evaluation a D+.

I had Smith going to the Texans at 11, but that doesn't mean he will end up being the 11th best player in this draft....or 7th where the Niners selected. Please re-read my critique of the player in this thread.

Famous or infamous players do not matter to me in my projections and evaluations. Some of the players I believe will have an excellent chance for success are ones that most college football fans do not know.

Gotta admit you had Iupati flagged months before the Senior Bowl.

I loved Iupati from a couple years back, and he showed a lot this year. I rarely promote the idea of using a mid-first rounder on an interior lineman, but he stood out as a dominant player, one that has a shot at a Pro-Bowl berth.