If A.J. Green

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
You draft based on need, you draft based on value. If Green is there, you take him.

WR is not our biggest need...we drafted crab over oher and paid the price...no, thx. dont wanna make same mistake again.

Well, the mistake wasn't drafting Oher, since Oher wasn't that great at LT this year. He is a great RT, but we already have Staley. The mistake was not drafting Josh Freeman, and thinking Alex Smith and Shaun Hill was enough.

Originally posted by RedWaltz24:

Well, the mistake wasn't drafting Oher, since Oher wasn't that great at LT this year. He is a great RT, but we already have Staley. The mistake was not drafting Josh Freeman, and thinking Alex Smith and Shaun Hill was enough.

it is a mistake to look at things from todays point view...before that draft, we knew that we need another OT b/c staley sucked big time and our RT wasnt much better (who was it again???). same applies to the QB-situation...hill wasnt bad enough to draft a qb in the first round.
and you dont know whether freeman would have been a big help for us under the former coaching staff.

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by RedWaltz24:

Well, the mistake wasn't drafting Oher, since Oher wasn't that great at LT this year. He is a great RT, but we already have Staley. The mistake was not drafting Josh Freeman, and thinking Alex Smith and Shaun Hill was enough.

it is a mistake to look at things from todays point view...before that draft, we knew that we need another OT b/c staley sucked big time and our RT wasnt much better (who was it again???). same applies to the QB-situation...hill wasnt bad enough to draft a qb in the first round.
and you dont know whether freeman would have been a big help for us under the former coaching staff.

Hill wasn't bad enough to draft a qb in the first round? Everyone and I mean everyone knew that Hill was not the answer with his noodle arm. The guy is a good back-up, but no one ever considered him an elite starter. The Niners needed a franchise QB, but McC never gives up on guys he drafts so they put their hopes in Smith.

you take green he has the size and speed and hands to contribute as a rookie we dont have a number 1 wr i think crabtree is good but doesnt have the speed to spread the field you put another wr on the other side of him watch out green,crabtree,davis that be pretty good to start off with our west coast offense and a threat in the red zone

Originally posted by communist:

Quote:
I would pass on a pass rusher for a potential elite CB, if you have the ability to take the other teams #1 wr out of the game the whole game changes. Look at Revis vs Wayne this year in the playoffs. What happened? Now tell me who's the Jets unbelievable pass rusher?

1.you have the ability to take ONE wr out of the game but it doesnt mean that the qb cant play with other guys, look at the chargers, look at peyton with collie or even garcon. the problem with colts is that their o-line sucked that year.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong we're basically arguing the same point bc they go hand in hand but my point is if you look at the Elite CB's in the league almost all of them we're 1st rd draft picks and highly reguared coming out of college. Now look at the elite pass rushers in the league, it's all over the board. Like I said, Harrison was undrafted. Clay Mathews secondary is one of the best in the business, so is the jets. On the other hand Demarcus Ware is a beast when it comes to pass rushing, how did the cowboys fair this year?? b/c their secondary stunk.

1.ware: 1st round
2.hali: 1st round
3.wake: undrafted
4.matthews: 1st round
5.abraham: 1st round
6.babin: 1st round
7.Umenyiora: 1st round
8.Tuck: 3rd round
9.Johnson: 3rd round
10.Suggs: 1st round
11.Mathis: 5th round
12.Clemons: undrafted
13.Philips: 4th round
14.Allen: 4th round
15.Hall: undrafted
16.Harrison: undrafted
17.Freeney: 1st round
18.Cole: 5th round
19.Woodley: 2nd round
8 out of 19 are first-rounders...4 out of 19 are undrafted, not a bad number but still 50% lower. spend a look at the raiders...they have one of the best CBs in the business, so what?

Like I said, with pass rushers they're basically all over the board. Would you like to look at the top 10 Int leaders in 2010?
1. Ed Reed- 1st rd
2. Devin McCourty- 1st rd
3. Troy Polamalu- 1st rd
4. Asante Samuels- 4th rd
5. Joe Haden- 1st rd
6. Deangelo Hall- 1st rd
7. Aquib Talib- 1st rd
8. Tramon Williams- Undrafted
9. Terrance Newman- 1st rd
10. Earl Thomas- 1st rd

So leaders in INT's 8 out of 10 in the 1st rd. Now who do you consider shut down corners?

1. Darrell Revis- 1st rd
2. Nnamdi Asomugha- 1st rd
3. Charles Woodson- 1st rd
4. Champ Bailey- 1st rd
5. Antonio Cromartie- 1st rd
6. Nate Clemens- 1st rd
7. Ronde Barber- 3rd rd

Sorry, I had to throw Nate in there. My point is do you see a pattern with the top Secondary players in the NFL??? When you have a chance to get someone like a Peterson or a Prince who has all the tools to become an elite shutdown corner you'd be foolish to pass him up for a pass rusher that may or may not work out. Don't get me wrong, you need both however it's much harder to come by the shutdown corner then the pass rusher. Oh, and to answer your question about the Raiders your right they have an Elite Shutdown corner but they don't have 1 dominant pass rusher... however look at their sack leaders....
Kamerion Wimbley - 9 sacks
Tommy Kelly- 7 sacks
Matt Shaughnessy - 7 sacks
Richard Seymour - 5.5 sacks
Lamarr Houston - 5 sacks

They seem to spread it around pretty well...

Originally posted by joeymac49s:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by communist:
if we get a good qb, we wont need green...but we need pass-rush and CB badly. we should at least consider a trade-down if green is available for us.

A trade down wouldn't be bad but if a player the caliber of Green is there, and we don't take him, we better ask for A TON in return. If the team is not willing to give it up, then oh well, we take Green.

i have also told in another thread: one heard same talk about crabtree...there are not many 3-4 pass-rushers out there, so if we have a shot on miller, i would take him over green every day. i would also prefer a pass-rushing DE...but not a CB.

I disagree with you on this one, Miller although I do believe he will be a good player. Vernon Gholston is 6'3 260 lbs. and was suppose to be a very similiar type of player to Miller.

It's simple if he's there take him, I am not sold on miller and if for some reason he is there that prob means Peterson and prince are both gone I say take him

Quote:
Like I said, with pass rushers they're basically all over the board. Would you like to look at the top 10 Int leaders in 2010?
1. Ed Reed- 1st rd
2. Devin McCourty- 1st rd
3. Troy Polamalu- 1st rd
4. Asante Samuels- 4th rd
5. Joe Haden- 1st rd
6. Deangelo Hall- 1st rd
7. Aquib Talib- 1st rd
8. Tramon Williams- Undrafted
9. Terrance Newman- 1st rd
10. Earl Thomas- 1st rd
So leaders in INT's 8 out of 10 in the 1st rd. Now who do you consider shut down corners?

1. Darrell Revis- 1st rd ok
2. Nnamdi Asomugha- 1st rd look at their earlier seasons according to their pass defense
3. Charles Woodson- 1st rd just look at their pass-rush
4. Champ Bailey- 1st rd the broncos D sucks anyway...
5. Antonio Cromartie- 1st rd overrated guy, sorry
6. Nate Clemens- 1st rd look at our pass defense
7. Ronde Barber- 3rd rd

dont you get it? a CB can shut-down one man, a good pass-rush can shut down the whole passing offense.

Originally posted by communist:

Quote:
Like I said, with pass rushers they're basically all over the board. Would you like to look at the top 10 Int leaders in 2010?
1. Ed Reed- 1st rd
2. Devin McCourty- 1st rd
3. Troy Polamalu- 1st rd
4. Asante Samuels- 4th rd
5. Joe Haden- 1st rd
6. Deangelo Hall- 1st rd
7. Aquib Talib- 1st rd
8. Tramon Williams- Undrafted
9. Terrance Newman- 1st rd
10. Earl Thomas- 1st rd
So leaders in INT's 8 out of 10 in the 1st rd. Now who do you consider shut down corners?

1. Darrell Revis- 1st rd ok
2. Nnamdi Asomugha- 1st rd look at their earlier seasons according to their pass defense
3. Charles Woodson- 1st rd just look at their pass-rush
4. Champ Bailey- 1st rd the broncos D sucks anyway...
5. Antonio Cromartie- 1st rd overrated guy, sorry
6. Nate Clemens- 1st rd look at our pass defense
7. Ronde Barber- 3rd rd

dont you get it? a CB can shut-down one man, a good pass-rush can shut down the whole passing offense.

well now your changing the argument. a good pass rush is the whole team, not 1 guy like Von Miller is. An elite shut down corner can make an offense change their entire game plan. I agree we need a good pass rush however my point is it's easier to find a good pass rusher then it is an elite CB like i'm talking about.

Originally posted by joeymac49s:

Originally posted by communist:

Quote:
Like I said, with pass rushers they're basically all over the board. Would you like to look at the top 10 Int leaders in 2010?
1. Ed Reed- 1st rd
2. Devin McCourty- 1st rd
3. Troy Polamalu- 1st rd
4. Asante Samuels- 4th rd
5. Joe Haden- 1st rd
6. Deangelo Hall- 1st rd
7. Aquib Talib- 1st rd
8. Tramon Williams- Undrafted
9. Terrance Newman- 1st rd
10. Earl Thomas- 1st rd
So leaders in INT's 8 out of 10 in the 1st rd. Now who do you consider shut down corners?

1. Darrell Revis- 1st rd ok
2. Nnamdi Asomugha- 1st rd look at their earlier seasons according to their pass defense
3. Charles Woodson- 1st rd just look at their pass-rush
4. Champ Bailey- 1st rd the broncos D sucks anyway...
5. Antonio Cromartie- 1st rd overrated guy, sorry
6. Nate Clemens- 1st rd look at our pass defense
7. Ronde Barber- 3rd rd

dont you get it? a CB can shut-down one man, a good pass-rush can shut down the whole passing offense.

well now your changing the argument. a good pass rush is the whole team, not 1 guy like Von Miller is. An elite shut down corner can make an offense change their entire game plan. I agree we need a good pass rush however my point is it's easier to find a good pass rusher then it is an elite CB like i'm talking about.

good-looking CBs are also a part of a good pass-rush.
even if a good CB is easier to find, it won't affect our pass defense as long as we dont build a nice pass-rush...and usually you start in the trenches and not in the secondary.
worst case: PP or even prince and no pass-rush--->same s**t as every year. no thx.

no reason to take Green. I know he's a HUGE talent and is close to can't miss. It would be great to have him Crabs and VD. Right now with QB, CB and passrusher as much bigger needs I'd be disappointed if we didn't address one of those more pressing needs.

Originally posted by Kiwihill:
It's simple if he's there take him, I am not sold on miller and if for some reason he is there that prob means Peterson and prince are both gone I say take him

How are you not sold on Miller???? He is the model of consistency, he has great tackling ability, clearly a sack artist and he is willing to work and learn. If he isn't on the board I would hope Quinn fell to us otherwise I would trade back for Kerrigan.

This thread got jacked by the looks of it so back on original topic, I would consider taking Green but he isn't necessary because look at the Patriots, Steelers, Colts, and Packers if you have a good scheme and good QB and a solid all around group you can win any day.

Originally posted by sfout:

Originally posted by Kiwihill:
It's simple if he's there take him, I am not sold on miller and if for some reason he is there that prob means Peterson and prince are both gone I say take him

How are you not sold on Miller???? He is the model of consistency, he has great tackling ability, clearly a sack artist and he is willing to work and learn. If he isn't on the board I would hope Quinn fell to us otherwise I would trade back for Kerrigan.

This thread got jacked by the looks of it so back on original topic, I would consider taking Green but he isn't necessary because look at the Patriots, Steelers, Colts, and Packers if you have a good scheme and good QB and a solid all around group you can win any day.

Actually, the Patriots were hurt severely in the playoffs because they didn't have a deep threat with Moss gone. Also, the Steelers having Mike Wallace is a a big deal. The Colts without Austin Collie this year struggled and Greg Jennings is a HUGE contributor for the Packers.

In other words, you need a star WR most of the time who can stretch the field most of the time to be successful.

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by joeymac49s:

Originally posted by communist:

Quote:
Like I said, with pass rushers they're basically all over the board. Would you like to look at the top 10 Int leaders in 2010?
1. Ed Reed- 1st rd
2. Devin McCourty- 1st rd
3. Troy Polamalu- 1st rd
4. Asante Samuels- 4th rd
5. Joe Haden- 1st rd
6. Deangelo Hall- 1st rd
7. Aquib Talib- 1st rd
8. Tramon Williams- Undrafted
9. Terrance Newman- 1st rd
10. Earl Thomas- 1st rd
So leaders in INT's 8 out of 10 in the 1st rd. Now who do you consider shut down corners?

1. Darrell Revis- 1st rd ok
2. Nnamdi Asomugha- 1st rd look at their earlier seasons according to their pass defense
3. Charles Woodson- 1st rd just look at their pass-rush
4. Champ Bailey- 1st rd the broncos D sucks anyway...
5. Antonio Cromartie- 1st rd overrated guy, sorry
6. Nate Clemens- 1st rd look at our pass defense
7. Ronde Barber- 3rd rd

dont you get it? a CB can shut-down one man, a good pass-rush can shut down the whole passing offense.

well now your changing the argument. a good pass rush is the whole team, not 1 guy like Von Miller is. An elite shut down corner can make an offense change their entire game plan. I agree we need a good pass rush however my point is it's easier to find a good pass rusher then it is an elite CB like i'm talking about.

good-looking CBs are also a part of a good pass-rush.
even if a good CB is easier to find, it won't affect our pass defense as long as we dont build a nice pass-rush...and usually you start in the trenches and not in the secondary.
worst case: PP or even prince and no pass-rush--->same s**t as every year. no thx.

Looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree. To say PP or PA with even the pass rush we had this year is the same s**t as always makes me think you might not know/realize the quality of PP or PA. (and i'm not trying to question your knowledge here or be cocky). They're not just good CBs, like I said if we were talking about Brandon Harris or Jimmy Smith then I would be on the Cameron Jordan/Von Miller bandwagon but i've seen both PP and PA play on multiple occassions this season and like I said before, at this point in their careers they seem to be just as good if not better then where Revis was at this point in his career. Now Revis went to a defensive minded coaches team and learned a lot from Ryan not to mention the scheme they run fits his style but our scheme would fit PP or PA the same way the Jets fit Revis. Back the my ORIGINAL question if AJ falls to us do we take him? I think we have to field some trade offers, how great would it be to move down a couple places and pick up another pick or two this year. Or better yet move down this year and pick up another #1 for next year. If no teams are biting, I believe we can't let a talent like that pass. I know he would by no means be filling a need but how can you pass on a tandem like Crabtree/Green. That could honestly be the next Fitz/Boldin in a few years. Maybe we could even get Warner to come out of retirement and throw to them??

Originally posted by communist:

Quote:
Like I said, with pass rushers they're basically all over the board. Would you like to look at the top 10 Int leaders in 2010?
1. Ed Reed- 1st rd
2. Devin McCourty- 1st rd
3. Troy Polamalu- 1st rd
4. Asante Samuels- 4th rd
5. Joe Haden- 1st rd
6. Deangelo Hall- 1st rd
7. Aquib Talib- 1st rd
8. Tramon Williams- Undrafted
9. Terrance Newman- 1st rd
10. Earl Thomas- 1st rd
So leaders in INT's 8 out of 10 in the 1st rd. Now who do you consider shut down corners?

1. Darrell Revis- 1st rd ok
2. Nnamdi Asomugha- 1st rd look at their earlier seasons according to their pass defense
3. Charles Woodson- 1st rd just look at their pass-rush
4. Champ Bailey- 1st rd the broncos D sucks anyway...
5. Antonio Cromartie- 1st rd overrated guy, sorry
6. Nate Clemens- 1st rd look at our pass defense
7. Ronde Barber- 3rd rd

dont you get it? a CB can shut-down one man, a good pass-rush can shut down the whole passing offense.

Actually no it cant, that logic does not hold water. Look at one of the best DE/OLB's in the game, a true sack master, DeMarcus Ware. Ware once again put up double digit sacks, 15 to be exact. By your logic his presence alone should of shut down the opposing teams passing game. Well, Dallas finished up at the back of the pack, 26th in passing D. And most mocks and intelligent guessing has Dallas going after the best CB available to them in the first, Prince Amukamara. So why would Dallas burn a high draft pick on a CB if a great OLB can shut down passing games alone?