Trading up from the 2nd Round for a Quarterback?

With FIVE first-round quarterback prospects in 2011 (with Ponder as a potential 6th after the combine), I'm beginning to feel that we may be best off passing on a Quarterback at #7 (taking a CB instead) and trading into the first round from #45.

In order to trade into the mid-20s, we would be required to trade away a 2012 #2, and to get into the low-to mid teens it would require a 2012 #1.

So, let's say we take Prince Amukamure at #7 and Jake Locker (or whoever slips) is sitting there at, say, #21, we trade our 2nd rounder and the #2 in 2012. In the 3rd round, we pick up a pass-rusher or a 3-4 defensive end.

* Another idea I wanted to throw out there is trading Crabtree and the #7 to Carolina for the #1 pick. WR is their #2 or #3 need (along with defensive end). Carolina gets Crabtree, drafts Robert Quinn at #7, and continues on with the Jimmy Clausen experiment for another year. We then draft a speedy WR in the 2nd or 3rd round (Broyles, Ron Johnson, Titus Young, etc) that can help stretch the field.

Originally posted by nickbradley:
With FIVE first-round quarterback prospects in 2011 (with Ponder as a potential 6th after the combine), I'm beginning to feel that we may be best off passing on a Quarterback at #7 (taking a CB instead) and trading into the first round from #45.

In order to trade into the mid-20s, we would be required to trade away a 2012 #2, and to get into the low-to mid teens it would require a 2012 #1.

So, let's say we take Prince Amukamure at #7 and Jake Locker (or whoever slips) is sitting there at, say, #21, we trade our 2nd rounder and the #2 in 2012. In the 3rd round, we pick up a pass-rusher or a 3-4 defensive end.

* Another idea I wanted to throw out there is trading Crabtree and the #7 to Carolina for the #1 pick. WR is their #2 or #3 need (along with defensive end). Carolina gets Crabtree, drafts Robert Quinn at #7, and continues on with the Jimmy Clausen experiment for another year. We then draft a speedy WR in the 2nd or 3rd round (Broyles, Ron Johnson, Titus Young, etc) that can help stretch the field.

orrrrr keep our picks and just draft Locker in the third. If you wanted him. Why you would, I have no idea.


And that second idea, just, no. Why in the world would Carolina do that? Crabtree and the seventh pick isnt close to being worth Andrew Luck. Maybe in Madden, but not in the real world.


Why do you consider DE to be one of the Panthers' top needs? DT is a much bigger need, as is OLB and TE. Charles Johnson had a fantastic year at DE(11.5 sacks and is 24) and Everitt Brown is still young and was a second round pick, plus Greg Hardy who showed flashes of talent. Post is full of fail.

[ Edited by jojomellon on Jan 4, 2011 at 22:24:12 ]

Originally posted by jojomellon:

Originally posted by nickbradley:
With FIVE first-round quarterback prospects in 2011 (with Ponder as a potential 6th after the combine), I'm beginning to feel that we may be best off passing on a Quarterback at #7 (taking a CB instead) and trading into the first round from #45.

In order to trade into the mid-20s, we would be required to trade away a 2012 #2, and to get into the low-to mid teens it would require a 2012 #1.

So, let's say we take Prince Amukamure at #7 and Jake Locker (or whoever slips) is sitting there at, say, #21, we trade our 2nd rounder and the #2 in 2012. In the 3rd round, we pick up a pass-rusher or a 3-4 defensive end.

* Another idea I wanted to throw out there is trading Crabtree and the #7 to Carolina for the #1 pick. WR is their #2 or #3 need (along with defensive end). Carolina gets Crabtree, drafts Robert Quinn at #7, and continues on with the Jimmy Clausen experiment for another year. We then draft a speedy WR in the 2nd or 3rd round (Broyles, Ron Johnson, Titus Young, etc) that can help stretch the field.

orrrrr keep our picks and just draft Locker in the third. If you wanted him. Why you would, I have no idea.


And that second idea, just, no. Why in the world would Carolina do that? Crabtree and the seventh pick isnt close to being worth Andrew Luck. Maybe in Madden, but not in the real world.


Why do you consider DE to be one of the Panthers' top needs? DT is a much bigger need, as is OLB and TE. Charles Johnson had a fantastic year at DE(11.5 sacks and is 24) and Everitt Brown is still young and was a second round pick, plus Greg Hardy who showed flashes of talent. Post is full of fail.

To your first point, I'm assuming that there is going to be a glut of QB talent late in the first round...and thi would constitute trading up to participate.

As to the Defensive End need, every mock draft that has Carolina taking someone other than Luck have Carolina taking Da'Quan Bowers...Everett Brown has not filled Peppers' shoes in any way, shape or form. So that is not "out there". Shoot, CBS Sports has Defensive End rated as a bigger need for Carolina that QB!

Here is my logic for Crabtree-Luck: most people are saying that this years #1 and #2 plus next years #1 is the price to trade up for Luck. Since future pick are discounted about 50% (rule of thumb), a player that was drafted #10 overall in 2009 is worth more than that. Entering his third season, he could be the right type of possession WR to take pressure off of Steve Smith (Steve Smith has vocalized his desire for another WR).

So you're wrong.

[ Edited by nickbradley on Jan 4, 2011 at 22:46:29 ]

Originally posted by nickbradley:


To your first point, I'm assuming that there is going to be a glut of QB talent late in the first round...and trading up to participate.

As to the Defensive End, every mock draft that has Carolina taking someone other than Luck have Carolina taking Da'Quan Bowers...Everett Brown has not filled Peppers' shoes in any way, shape or form. So that is not out there. Shoot, CBS Sports has Defensive End rated as a bigger need for Carolina that QB!

Is CBS the authority on draft needs? How about coming up with your own conclusions based on facts then just reading what some dork who writes for CBS has to say? Who said Everitt Brown replaced Peppers? They had one DE who racked up MORE SACKS THAN PEPPERS this year and was a beast in Johnson. The other 2 DEs on the other side combined for 7 sacks. So they got 18.5 sacks out of their DEs. Im guessing that's one of the higher numbers in the NFL. They definitely need another one though, you're right........

Quote:
Here is my logic for Luck: most people are saying that this years #1 and #2 plus next years #1 is the price to trade up for Luck.

Thats faulty logic. Who is saying that at all? Not to mention the story that the Panthers own owner said THERES NO WAY WE'D TRADE DOWN IF LUCK IS THERE.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/04/panthers-unlikely-to-trade-top-pick/
That price tag is not right at all. Carolina should have their team taken from them if thats all theyd demand in a trade for the first pick. Why would you pass on the consensus top player in the draft, who plays the position that you need the most, for a friggin #2 WR???? This isn't Madden.

Dumb thread. Dumb idea. I'm not wrong.


Hell, The Giants only moved up from #4 to #1 in 2004, and they gave up what you're suggesting, a first, a second, a first AND a fifth. And it was only that much because the Chargers were getting a QB as well with that first pick who was rated pretty much just as high as manning. Here, that isnt the case, the Panthers wouldnt be getting a QB equal to Luck at number 7, at all, plus you're moving up 3 extra picks. So im not sure who these 'most people' are who are suggesting all it will take is two firsts and a second are, but they are wrong,. Stop listening to them.

[ Edited by jojomellon on Jan 4, 2011 at 23:04:38 ]

Originally posted by jojomellon:

Originally posted by nickbradley:


To your first point, I'm assuming that there is going to be a glut of QB talent late in the first round...and trading up to participate.

As to the Defensive End, every mock draft that has Carolina taking someone other than Luck have Carolina taking Da'Quan Bowers...Everett Brown has not filled Peppers' shoes in any way, shape or form. So that is not out there. Shoot, CBS Sports has Defensive End rated as a bigger need for Carolina that QB!

Is CBS the authority on draft needs? How about coming up with your own conclusions based on facts then just reading what some dork who writes for CBS has to say? Who said Everitt Brown replaced Peppers? They had one DE who racked up MORE SACKS THAN PEPPERS this year and was a beast in Johnson. The other 2 DEs on the other side combined for 7 sacks. So they got 18.5 sacks out of their DEs. Im guessing that's one of the higher numbers in the NFL. They definitely need another one though, you're right........

Quote:
Here is my logic for Luck: most people are saying that this years #1 and #2 plus next years #1 is the price to trade up for Luck.

Thats faulty logic. Who is saying that at all? Not to mention the story that the Panthers own owner said THERES NO WAY WE'D TRADE DOWN IF LUCK IS THERE.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/04/panthers-unlikely-to-trade-top-pick/
That price tag is not right at all. Carolina should have their team taken from them if thats all theyd demand in a trade for the first pick. Why would you pass on the consensus top player in the draft, who plays the position that you need the most, for a friggin #2 WR???? This isn't Madden.

Dumb thread. Dumb idea. I'm not wrong.


Hell, The Giants only moved up from #4 to #1 in 2004, and they gave up what you're suggesting, a first, a second, a first AND a fifth. And it was only that much because the Chargers were getting a QB as well with that first pick who was rated pretty much just as high as manning. Here, that isnt the case, the Panthers wouldnt be getting a QB equal to Luck at number 7, at all, plus you're moving up 3 extra picks. So im not sure who these 'most people' are who are suggesting all it will take is two firsts and a second are, but they are wrong,. Stop listening to them.

the "most people" are the ones following the draft value chart which shows an equal trade from 7 to 1 since the 1st overall pick is worth 3,000 points. The equal trade according to the chart, from the 7th pick is a 1st (1500 points), 2nd (510 points) and future 1st (950 points).

That is a "fair trade" according to the CHART. With that said, Panthers may not think that is a fair trade and you can't blame them. They know there are about 5 teams who need a QB making it a hot commodity and they may think a fair trade is a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 2012 1st, and 3rd . Who knows, but they have that luxury of naming their price or taking Andrew Luck. either way, they win IMO.

Also, we will not trade Crabtree, our only LEGIT threat at WR when he hasn't even had a chance to scratch the surface of his potential . If we get Harbaugh and he is as good as advertised, he will be able to take ANY of the "Top" QB's and turn them into some good ones and to have TOP talent already established at WR, TE, and RB, will only help in the grooming of his QB.

Originally posted by jojomellon:

Originally posted by nickbradley:


To your first point, I'm assuming that there is going to be a glut of QB talent late in the first round...and trading up to participate.

As to the Defensive End, every mock draft that has Carolina taking someone other than Luck have Carolina taking Da'Quan Bowers...Everett Brown has not filled Peppers' shoes in any way, shape or form. So that is not out there. Shoot, CBS Sports has Defensive End rated as a bigger need for Carolina that QB!

Is CBS the authority on draft needs? How about coming up with your own conclusions based on facts then just reading what some dork who writes for CBS has to say? Who said Everitt Brown replaced Peppers? They had one DE who racked up MORE SACKS THAN PEPPERS this year and was a beast in Johnson. The other 2 DEs on the other side combined for 7 sacks. So they got 18.5 sacks out of their DEs. Im guessing that's one of the higher numbers in the NFL. They definitely need another one though, you're right........

Quote:
Here is my logic for Luck: most people are saying that this years #1 and #2 plus next years #1 is the price to trade up for Luck.

Thats faulty logic. Who is saying that at all? Not to mention the story that the Panthers own owner said THERES NO WAY WE'D TRADE DOWN IF LUCK IS THERE.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/04/panthers-unlikely-to-trade-top-pick/
That price tag is not right at all. Carolina should have their team taken from them if thats all theyd demand in a trade for the first pick. Why would you pass on the consensus top player in the draft, who plays the position that you need the most, for a friggin #2 WR???? This isn't Madden.

Dumb thread. Dumb idea. I'm not wrong.


Hell, The Giants only moved up from #4 to #1 in 2004, and they gave up what you're suggesting, a first, a second, a first AND a fifth. And it was only that much because the Chargers were getting a QB as well with that first pick who was rated pretty much just as high as manning. Here, that isnt the case, the Panthers wouldnt be getting a QB equal to Luck at number 7, at all, plus you're moving up 3 extra picks. So im not sure who these 'most people' are who are suggesting all it will take is two firsts and a second are, but they are wrong,. Stop listening to them.

CBS Sports is just a citation -- I don't just pull things out of my *ss. Responsible people cite sources.

You're ignoring Jimmy Clausen, you're giving up on a 23-year old quarterback by drafting Luck. You can let him develop and fill other needs. Crabtree would be a #1 with Steve Smith declining.

And the price tag is pretty close. You ignored this earlier, but future year picks are discounted 50%, so getting a guy like crabtree that has already been through his first two season is worth more.

And I saw the Panthers owner quote, and any responsible owner would make that comment even if they intended to trade down.

why dont we trade our first second and crabtree for brady?

because it is not going to happen. everyone wants luck but its not going to happen so why come up with every possibility in the world for it to not happen. lets just focus on what players we can attain to make our team better and stop having luck on our team. NEVER WILL HAPPEN

Denver traded a 2nd, 3rd and 4th to Baltimore to move into the mid 20's last year for Tebow, so assuming a 2012 2nd rounder would allow us to move up there is wishful thinking. It might not take that much but it will likely be more than a 2012 2nd round pick.

Originally posted by KRS-1:
Denver traded a 2nd, 3rd and 4th to Baltimore to move into the mid 20's last year for Tebow, so assuming a 2012 2nd rounder would allow us to move up there is wishful thinking. It might not take that much but it will likely be more than a 2012 2nd round pick.

I was going strictly off the draft value chart, with 2012 picks equaling 1/2 of the current year. That would value the 26th pick or so -- I think you may need to throw in a 4th rounder to get to #21. We have two 4th rounders this year, so that could work out well...

Originally posted by TalkinBoutWILLIS:
why dont we trade our first second and crabtree for brady?

because it is not going to happen. everyone wants luck but its not going to happen so why come up with every possibility in the world for it to not happen. lets just focus on what players we can attain to make our team better and stop having luck on our team. NEVER WILL HAPPEN

Trading up 6 spots to take a guy who has never played is not the same as trading for the best quarterback in the national football league. Pretty poor comment on your end.

The only 3 QBs I really like early on are Luck, Mallett, and Gabbert. All will probably go in the top 15 picks. If somehow Mallett or Gabbert slip beyond that, I would be all for a trade up to get one. Probably not gonna happen... so I would select Foles in the 2nd, if he comes out... Probably look Ponder, Stanzi, Devlin, maybe Dalton there in the 3rd rd.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
The only 3 QBs I really like early on are Luck, Mallett, and Gabbert. All will probably go in the top 15 picks. If somehow Mallett or Gabbert slip beyond that, I would be all for a trade up to get one. Probably not gonna happen... so I would select Foles in the 2nd, if he comes out... Probably look Ponder, Stanzi, Devlin, maybe Dalton there in the 3rd rd.

The only QB I really like in the top 10 is Luck. Since he is out of the question, the Niners will have to think about which guy is available in the second. Locker did not have a great year this year and he may drop to the early second round. I would be very happy to see him in a Niners uniform with Harbaugh developing him for the future.

In a perfect world I would love to get say Peterson, Prince, Dareus, Quinn, etc at 7 and then get a franchise QB in the 2nd. Odds are we are probably better getting our QB in the 1st round. Check this out (2-3rd round qbs since 92)

http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/23qb/23qbs.php

As for your idea I just don't know if say Mallett or Locker, would be around in the late first. I might draft one of those guys in the 2nd. Problem is we rotate with 6-10 teams so we select 45, not 39 (32+7th). I don't know who will be around by that time. I don't know if I could muster up giving up a 2nd or first next year to move up those 20+ spots. They are too risky to me. Still, I am scared about these potential 2nd round QBs. None are really a safe pick anymore.

I think I would go FA or go 1st round but like I mentioned I would love to get a great defensive presence at 7 and then get your franchise qb in the 2nd.

You gotta step up your hypotheticals

Originally posted by nickbradley:

Originally posted by jojomellon:

Originally posted by nickbradley:


To your first point, I'm assuming that there is going to be a glut of QB talent late in the first round...and trading up to participate.

As to the Defensive End, every mock draft that has Carolina taking someone other than Luck have Carolina taking Da'Quan Bowers...Everett Brown has not filled Peppers' shoes in any way, shape or form. So that is not out there. Shoot, CBS Sports has Defensive End rated as a bigger need for Carolina that QB!

Is CBS the authority on draft needs? How about coming up with your own conclusions based on facts then just reading what some dork who writes for CBS has to say? Who said Everitt Brown replaced Peppers? They had one DE who racked up MORE SACKS THAN PEPPERS this year and was a beast in Johnson. The other 2 DEs on the other side combined for 7 sacks. So they got 18.5 sacks out of their DEs. Im guessing that's one of the higher numbers in the NFL. They definitely need another one though, you're right........

Quote:
Here is my logic for Luck: most people are saying that this years #1 and #2 plus next years #1 is the price to trade up for Luck.

Thats faulty logic. Who is saying that at all? Not to mention the story that the Panthers own owner said THERES NO WAY WE'D TRADE DOWN IF LUCK IS THERE.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/04/panthers-unlikely-to-trade-top-pick/
That price tag is not right at all. Carolina should have their team taken from them if thats all theyd demand in a trade for the first pick. Why would you pass on the consensus top player in the draft, who plays the position that you need the most, for a friggin #2 WR???? This isn't Madden.

Dumb thread. Dumb idea. I'm not wrong.


Hell, The Giants only moved up from #4 to #1 in 2004, and they gave up what you're suggesting, a first, a second, a first AND a fifth. And it was only that much because the Chargers were getting a QB as well with that first pick who was rated pretty much just as high as manning. Here, that isnt the case, the Panthers wouldnt be getting a QB equal to Luck at number 7, at all, plus you're moving up 3 extra picks. So im not sure who these 'most people' are who are suggesting all it will take is two firsts and a second are, but they are wrong,. Stop listening to them.

CBS Sports is just a citation -- I don't just pull things out of my *ss. Responsible people cite sources.

You're ignoring Jimmy Clausen, you're giving up on a 23-year old quarterback by drafting Luck. You can let him develop and fill other needs. Crabtree would be a #1 with Steve Smith declining.

And the price tag is pretty close. You ignored this earlier, but future year picks are discounted 50%, so getting a guy like crabtree that has already been through his first two season is worth more.

And I saw the Panthers owner quote, and any responsible owner would make that comment even if they intended to trade down.

good try, but that doesnt work. Once a guy is in the league it doesnt matter where they were drafted, it matters how they produce. There is ZERO chance carolina would take our 1st round pick and crabtree for the first overall.

EDIT: thats why the draft value chart only applies to picks and not players. For example, IMO carolina would not be able to get a 2nd round pick for Clausen right now.

[ Edited by cory4903 on Jan 5, 2011 at 08:13:18 ]