Bowl Week Prospect Watch #3 (Jan. 1 - 4)

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Luck seems rather "silver-spoon fed" to me. Gets a ton of help from his OL protection and run game.

Let me tell you what I think. This is my quote from the post asking if we should trade our next year's first rounder for Luck. On October 25th, this is what I said:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Absolutely not. He is not worth that. This board severely overrates Andrew Luck. He's a tremendous prospect, but I would not trade away a pick. We need all the picks we can get, and there are far too many unbelievable players out there right now that could really help us.

No, no I would absolutely not trade it.

Yeah, I hear ya. Overrated, for sure.

So if the Zone is overrating him, then isn't the media and the rest of the NFL too??

Let me ask you guys another question, where would you rate Luck?? And if not #1 overall who deserves to be the overall pick then??

Oh, I guess he's top 3, just looking at the prospects. I don't think he or anyone is a lock to be great at the next level though. I think forum fans tend to exaggerate each accomplishment and make Luckexcuses for any errors he may make. I see a QB that, while very good right now, seems to have a TON of help thanks to great coaching and great OL run and pass blocking.

Not saying that I wouldn't want him as our rookie QB. Just that he gets a lot of help.... and the little things get exaggerated while the bad things get washed away in excuses.

And to the people that think hes overrated will put a lot of weight on his mistakes. When in actuality ALL QB's make mistakes, its how they come back from them that make them great, as Luck did last night. Luck was at his best last night, and he did it against a #2 defense (I think that's what they said last night), only really making two mistakes.

And the same can be said for a QB running the spread, but the fact that Luck runs a Pro Style offense so smooth and is why hes considered the #1 overall pick.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Luck seems rather "silver-spoon fed" to me. Gets a ton of help from his OL protection and run game.

Let me tell you what I think. This is my quote from the post asking if we should trade our next year's first rounder for Luck. On October 25th, this is what I said:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Absolutely not. He is not worth that. This board severely overrates Andrew Luck. He's a tremendous prospect, but I would not trade away a pick. We need all the picks we can get, and there are far too many unbelievable players out there right now that could really help us.

No, no I would absolutely not trade it.

Yeah, I hear ya. Overrated, for sure.

So if the Zone is overrating him, then isn't the media and the rest of the NFL too??

Let me ask you guys another question, where would you rate Luck?? And if not #1 overall who deserves to be the overall pick then??

Oh, I guess he's top 3, just looking at the prospects. I don't think he or anyone is a lock to be great at the next level though. I think forum fans tend to exaggerate each accomplishment and make Luckexcuses for any errors he may make. I see a QB that, while very good right now, seems to have a TON of help thanks to great coaching and great OL run and pass blocking.

Not saying that I wouldn't want him as our rookie QB. Just that he gets a lot of help.... and the little things get exaggerated while the bad things get washed away in excuses.

And to the people that think hes overrated will put a lot of weight on his mistakes. When in actuality ALL QB's make mistakes, its how they come back from them that make them great, as Luck did last night. Luck was at his best last night, and he did it against a #2 defense (I think that's what they said last night), only really making two mistakes.

And the same can be said for a QB running the spread, but the fact that Luck runs a Pro Style offense so smooth and is why hes considered the #1 overall pick.

I agree with this completely. It's funny how oldman is saying that things he's saying, but in the first half, Stanford wasn't really playing well consistently. The pass blocking didn't do all that well, but Luck tried to keep the play alive with his legs. Even Gruden and Jaws were praising him. I think it's just a matter of some people not wanting to jump on the bandwagon. Why discredit Luck's performance? He has a good line and good receivers but it's not like they're all top draft picks. They've all been coached very well. Is it Luck's fault that he's surrounded by well coached talent? If that's how you want to judge a player, then take a look at Jake Locker, who has absolutely no talent (besides Polk) around him, yet fights hard on every play. But then other posters will bash him cus he doesn't make enough plays. Blah blah blah.

It's just a matter of certain people wanting to be different and not jump into the bandwagon. Luck played very well last night, as he did all season, and it was against a very tough Virginia Tech defense.

He played well... I already said that along with saying he's still a top 3 pick in my eyes.

Some of you are just so smitten that you choose to jump on any honest opinions that cast any negativity towards him. Again... Luck is a top draft pick... just not one that from what I see makes me want to trade a ton of extra draft picks to move up for.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
He played well... I already said that along with saying he's still a top 3 pick in my eyes.

Some of you are just so smitten that you choose to jump on any honest opinions that cast any negativity towards him. Again... Luck is a top draft pick... just not one that from what I see makes me want to trade a ton of extra draft picks to move up for.

Not trying to jump on you or anything, oldman, but it just seemed like you were discrediting Luck's performance because he's been "spoon-fed" a good o-line. Yes, his o-line is good, but his tackles were getting beat by the speed rush a lot last night. Luck made good plays out of the pocket or was smart enough to keep it and run. His first half performance showed some jitters and he worked past that in the 2nd half where he pretty much dissected VT's secondary with quick, accurate throws.

I wouldn't throw a "Mike Ditka" type trade to get him, but an "Eli Manning" type would suffice.

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
He played well... I already said that along with saying he's still a top 3 pick in my eyes.

Some of you are just so smitten that you choose to jump on any honest opinions that cast any negativity towards him. Again... Luck is a top draft pick... just not one that from what I see makes me want to trade a ton of extra draft picks to move up for.

Not trying to jump on you or anything, oldman, but it just seemed like you were discrediting Luck's performance because he's been "spoon-fed" a good o-line. Yes, his o-line is good, but his tackles were getting beat by the speed rush a lot last night. Luck made good plays out of the pocket or was smart enough to keep it and run. His first half performance showed some jitters and he worked past that in the 2nd half where he pretty much dissected VT's secondary with quick, accurate throws.

I wouldn't throw a "Mike Ditka" type trade to get him, but an "Eli Manning" type would suffice.

I agree. And seeing how we have 10 picks in the draft, and 7 picks next year to back us up, a Mike Ditka draft won't be necessary.

And to tell you guys the truth, last season and September, I wasn't really high on Andrew Luck. I always thought of him as a 2nd round pick, till I started following him more this season. That's when you could see the growth of him as a QB, and for a Sophomore how mature he is. It makes it even more exciting that hes learning one of the most complex offenses out there. And this might have little to do with it, but I love how his dad was an NFL QB, it shows good bloodline and should get a feel of the guidance hes had, which should equal good character.

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
He played well... I already said that along with saying he's still a top 3 pick in my eyes.

Some of you are just so smitten that you choose to jump on any honest opinions that cast any negativity towards him. Again... Luck is a top draft pick... just not one that from what I see makes me want to trade a ton of extra draft picks to move up for.

Not trying to jump on you or anything, oldman, but it just seemed like you were discrediting Luck's performance because he's been "spoon-fed" a good o-line. Yes, his o-line is good, but his tackles were getting beat by the speed rush a lot last night. Luck made good plays out of the pocket or was smart enough to keep it and run. His first half performance showed some jitters and he worked past that in the 2nd half where he pretty much dissected VT's secondary with quick, accurate throws.

I wouldn't throw a "Mike Ditka" type trade to get him, but an "Eli Manning" type would suffice.

I agree. And seeing how we have 10 picks in the draft, and 7 picks next year to back us up, a Mike Ditka draft won't be necessary.

And to tell you guys the truth, last season and September, I wasn't really high on Andrew Luck. I always thought of him as a 2nd round pick, till I started following him more this season. That's when you could see the growth of him as a QB, and for a Sophomore how mature he is. It makes it even more exciting that hes learning one of the most complex offenses out there. And this might have little to do with it, but I love how his dad was an NFL QB, it shows good bloodline and should get a feel of the guidance hes had, which should equal good character.

Yup. And when the camera was in the offensive huddle, those were some pretty long plays he was calling out. And he audibled a lot. I don't know if they were dummy audibles or not, but that shows maturity and pretty good QB IQ.

My take:

Luck is legit especially in that second half. He read through his progressions and used his feet to buy him some time. He is NOT extremely accurate. Even that TD pass to the TE was a tad bit late where he had to wait for it. He was sooooo wide open, it didn't matter.

I see the greatness, but he is NOT John Elway for sure. I would love to have him, but not at the expense of moving from #7 to #1, 1500 pts on the "Draft Chart". What would that be? To me, it seems like no matter what, we have to give TWO 1st round picks, 2011 and 2012! Plus, add this year's second and third, maybe even the fourth.

OH hell no!!! Not even close. That's five players VS one. No way with this potentially deep QB class especially in the second and third rounds.

Heck, taking Amukamara, Bowers, Dareus or Quinn in the top 10 to solidify our already potent D especially with so many starters leaving like Manny and Franklin. I can then see us take a QB in the second like:
Locker
Delvin
Foles
Dalton

Then there is Stanzi, Ponder, Enderle, and Kaepernick later too.

Again, no way no how to trade the "farm" for Luck!

At least, IMHumbleO.

Originally posted by ninertico:
My take:

Luck is legit especially in that second half. He read through his progressions and used his feet to buy him some time. He is NOT extremely accurate. Even that TD pass to the TE was a tad bit late where he had to wait for it. He was sooooo wide open, it didn't matter.

I see the greatness, but he is NOT John Elway for sure. I would love to have him, but not at the expense of moving from #7 to #1, 1500 pts on the "Draft Chart". What would that be? To me, it seems like no matter what, we have to give TWO 1st round picks, 2011 and 2012! Plus, add this year's second and third, maybe even the fourth.

OH hell no!!! Not even close. That's five players VS one. No way with this potentially deep QB class especially in the second and third rounds.

Heck, taking Amukamara, Bowers, Dareus or Quinn in the top 10 to solidify our already potent D especially with so many starters leaving like Manny and Franklin. I can then see us take a QB in the second like:
Locker
Delvin
Foles
Dalton

Then there is Stanzi, Ponder, Enderle, and Kaepernick later too.

Again, no way no how to trade the "farm" for Luck!

At least, IMHumbleO.

If we can get Prince and Locker falls to the 2nd, I'd be ecstatic. But I don't see Locker falling out of the 1st round.

Originally posted by ninertico:
My take:

Luck is legit especially in that second half. He read through his progressions and used his feet to buy him some time. He is NOT extremely accurate. Even that TD pass to the TE was a tad bit late where he had to wait for it. He was sooooo wide open, it didn't matter.

I see the greatness, but he is NOT John Elway for sure. I would love to have him, but not at the expense of moving from #7 to #1, 1500 pts on the "Draft Chart". What would that be? To me, it seems like no matter what, we have to give TWO 1st round picks, 2011 and 2012! Plus, add this year's second and third, maybe even the fourth.

OH hell no!!! Not even close. That's five players VS one. No way with this potentially deep QB class especially in the second and third rounds.

Heck, taking Amukamara, Bowers, Dareus or Quinn in the top 10 to solidify our already potent D especially with so many starters leaving like Manny and Franklin. I can then see us take a QB in the second like:
Locker
Delvin
Foles
Dalton

Then there is Stanzi, Ponder, Enderle, and Kaepernick later too.

Again, no way no how to trade the "farm" for Luck!

At least, IMHumbleO.

I thought that too until I started thinking and came to the conclusion that his 2 TD to a super wide open Fleener could have been under thrown on purpose. There are times when a young QB sees such a wide open receiver, gets excited and overthrows. Because he is so wide open, why not just lay it in there to make sure it is catchable. That is what I came up with.

Originally posted by 49ersRednGold:

Originally posted by ninertico:
My take:

Luck is legit especially in that second half. He read through his progressions and used his feet to buy him some time. He is NOT extremely accurate. Even that TD pass to the TE was a tad bit late where he had to wait for it. He was sooooo wide open, it didn't matter.

I see the greatness, but he is NOT John Elway for sure. I would love to have him, but not at the expense of moving from #7 to #1, 1500 pts on the "Draft Chart". What would that be? To me, it seems like no matter what, we have to give TWO 1st round picks, 2011 and 2012! Plus, add this year's second and third, maybe even the fourth.

OH hell no!!! Not even close. That's five players VS one. No way with this potentially deep QB class especially in the second and third rounds.

Heck, taking Amukamara, Bowers, Dareus or Quinn in the top 10 to solidify our already potent D especially with so many starters leaving like Manny and Franklin. I can then see us take a QB in the second like:
Locker
Delvin
Foles
Dalton

Then there is Stanzi, Ponder, Enderle, and Kaepernick later too.

Again, no way no how to trade the "farm" for Luck!

At least, IMHumbleO.

I thought that too until I started thinking and came to the conclusion that his 2 TD to a super wide open Fleener could have been under thrown on purpose. There are times when a young QB sees such a wide open receiver, gets excited and overthrows. Because he is so wide open, why not just lay it in there to make sure it is catchable. That is what I came up with.

I'm with ninertico on this one. That pass wasn't the only one that a receiver had to wait on. I had visions of Alex Smith at times . I haven't seen much of Luck this year, but that first half left me relatively unimpressed. His throws on the run were short and some completions late. The 2nd was just the opposite, though still not without flaws. Again, a few passes late, but hey, why quibble with the results. There's no question of talent, both physical and intangibles, but is he worth selling the farm for? I don't think you can accurately make that assessment of anyone just coming out of college. Look at all the famous busts that were "sure things" entering the pros, esp at the QB position. We have to stay sane if offerring a trade scenario for him. Still, its' nice to dream......Lombardi/Harbaugh/Luck as a package deal. Wouldn't that be great!?

I would give up 2 firsts and more to get Luck. The QB is the difference between playoffs/SB and staying home right now. We can manage our other holes either with late picks or free agency, but we really need a top QB if we want to return to the deep playoffs. Assuming that our next coach can actually get more out of our team, this is the highest we will be drafting in a while. From what I have been hearing, it sounds like the rest of the first round QBs have a lot of question marks, and probably should be drafted outside of the top 10. I would prefer to trade up for Luck than to reach for a QB that has a much higher bust potential.

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Luck seems rather "silver-spoon fed" to me. Gets a ton of help from his OL protection and run game.

Let me tell you what I think. This is my quote from the post asking if we should trade our next year's first rounder for Luck. On October 25th, this is what I said:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Absolutely not. He is not worth that. This board severely overrates Andrew Luck. He's a tremendous prospect, but I would not trade away a pick. We need all the picks we can get, and there are far too many unbelievable players out there right now that could really help us.

No, no I would absolutely not trade it.

Yeah, I hear ya. Overrated, for sure.

So if the Zone is overrating him, then isn't the media and the rest of the NFL too??

Let me ask you guys another question, where would you rate Luck?? And if not #1 overall who deserves to be the overall pick then??

Oh, I guess he's top 3, just looking at the prospects. I don't think he or anyone is a lock to be great at the next level though. I think forum fans tend to exaggerate each accomplishment and make Luckexcuses for any errors he may make. I see a QB that, while very good right now, seems to have a TON of help thanks to great coaching and great OL run and pass blocking.

Not saying that I wouldn't want him as our rookie QB. Just that he gets a lot of help.... and the little things get exaggerated while the bad things get washed away in excuses.

And to the people that think hes overrated will put a lot of weight on his mistakes. When in actuality ALL QB's make mistakes, its how they come back from them that make them great, as Luck did last night. Luck was at his best last night, and he did it against a #2 defense (I think that's what they said last night), only really making two mistakes.

And the same can be said for a QB running the spread, but the fact that Luck runs a Pro Style offense so smooth and is why hes considered the #1 overall pick.

I agree with this completely. It's funny how oldman is saying that things he's saying, but in the first half, Stanford wasn't really playing well consistently. The pass blocking didn't do all that well, but Luck tried to keep the play alive with his legs. Even Gruden and Jaws were praising him. I think it's just a matter of some people not wanting to jump on the bandwagon. Why discredit Luck's performance? He has a good line and good receivers but it's not like they're all top draft picks. They've all been coached very well. Is it Luck's fault that he's surrounded by well coached talent? If that's how you want to judge a player, then take a look at Jake Locker, who has absolutely no talent (besides Polk) around him, yet fights hard on every play. But then other posters will bash him cus he doesn't make enough plays. Blah blah blah.

It's just a matter of certain people wanting to be different and not jump into the bandwagon. Luck played very well last night, as he did all season, and it was against a very tough Virginia Tech defense.

I think it's a little unfair for the Luck fanatics to imply that those who are opponents of giving up "the farm" for him are discrediting his performance. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I think some do.

Luck played outstanding this season overall, and is unquestionably the #1 pick. But I would never, ever give up that much for one player. Plus, what makes anyone so sure the Panthers would be willing to give him up either?

NO PLAYER IS EVER A SURE THING COMING OUT. If you give up that much for someone.. and they fail?

God help you. Because your franchise will be ruined for many more years to come than even if you had just kept those picks. I do not want to be that team. Injuries can always happen, player unrest and lack of desire to be on a certain team can happen. We cannot, I repeat, CANNOT invest that much into a player. EVER. PERIOD.

[ Edited by OnTheClock on Jan 4, 2011 at 11:53:56 ]

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Luck seems rather "silver-spoon fed" to me. Gets a ton of help from his OL protection and run game.

Let me tell you what I think. This is my quote from the post asking if we should trade our next year's first rounder for Luck. On October 25th, this is what I said:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Absolutely not. He is not worth that. This board severely overrates Andrew Luck. He's a tremendous prospect, but I would not trade away a pick. We need all the picks we can get, and there are far too many unbelievable players out there right now that could really help us.

No, no I would absolutely not trade it.

Yeah, I hear ya. Overrated, for sure.

So if the Zone is overrating him, then isn't the media and the rest of the NFL too??

Let me ask you guys another question, where would you rate Luck?? And if not #1 overall who deserves to be the overall pick then??

Oh, I guess he's top 3, just looking at the prospects. I don't think he or anyone is a lock to be great at the next level though. I think forum fans tend to exaggerate each accomplishment and make Luckexcuses for any errors he may make. I see a QB that, while very good right now, seems to have a TON of help thanks to great coaching and great OL run and pass blocking.

Not saying that I wouldn't want him as our rookie QB. Just that he gets a lot of help.... and the little things get exaggerated while the bad things get washed away in excuses.

And to the people that think hes overrated will put a lot of weight on his mistakes. When in actuality ALL QB's make mistakes, its how they come back from them that make them great, as Luck did last night. Luck was at his best last night, and he did it against a #2 defense (I think that's what they said last night), only really making two mistakes.

And the same can be said for a QB running the spread, but the fact that Luck runs a Pro Style offense so smooth and is why hes considered the #1 overall pick.

I agree with this completely. It's funny how oldman is saying that things he's saying, but in the first half, Stanford wasn't really playing well consistently. The pass blocking didn't do all that well, but Luck tried to keep the play alive with his legs. Even Gruden and Jaws were praising him. I think it's just a matter of some people not wanting to jump on the bandwagon. Why discredit Luck's performance? He has a good line and good receivers but it's not like they're all top draft picks. They've all been coached very well. Is it Luck's fault that he's surrounded by well coached talent? If that's how you want to judge a player, then take a look at Jake Locker, who has absolutely no talent (besides Polk) around him, yet fights hard on every play. But then other posters will bash him cus he doesn't make enough plays. Blah blah blah.

It's just a matter of certain people wanting to be different and not jump into the bandwagon. Luck played very well last night, as he did all season, and it was against a very tough Virginia Tech defense.

I think it's a little unfair for the Luck fanatics to imply that those who are opponents of giving up "the farm" for him are discrediting his performance. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I think some do.

Luck played outstanding this season overall, and is unquestionably the #1 pick. But I would never, ever give up that much for one player. Plus, what makes anyone so sure the Panthers would be willing to give him up either?

I'm a huge Luck fan and I can see that he has the potential to be a superstar in the NFL, but I am also not a fan of selling the farm for him. However, it also depends on someone's definition of the "farm". I would never pull a Mike Ditka move and cripple the organization for years and years. However, a trade like Eli Manning to the Giants would be serviceable.

I doubt Carolina would want to pass on Luck, just like you do, but I'm sure they would think about the possibility of receiving the #7 pick, our 2nd rounder, next year's 1st and 3rd, and might still manage to select a QB like Mallett, Newton, Locker, or Gabbert unless they decide to stick with Clausen and go elsewhere.

Sugar Bowl is on now, fellas. Turn it on. ESPN.

Mallet started the game with two very good passes... Both right through his receiver's hands..

Wow.... that one of the luckiest touchdowns I've ever seen...