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Joe Haden is Horribly Overrated

Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
so as long as the scouts do their homework they are guaranteed not to draft busts? Dammit why didnt our scouts do their homework on Reggie McGrew, Mike Rumph, Rashaun Woods, Kentwan Balmer

you do realize only one of the names you mentioned was drafted by the current scouting department, right?
...and i'd say we should give k.balmer until midseason this year before we bring in the verdict as transitioning to play as a 34DL is reputably very tricky takes time. yes, i would like to have seen something more from him so far, but i just think it's a little early to say balmer is a bust.
Originally posted by footballxpaul:
what are you smoking, joe haden is a crazy gifted athlete and plays lights out. If you think he is over rated you have obviously never watched him play.

I'm not bashing the guy, I'm just saying his combined intangibles/physicality does not legitimately translate to that of a top-15 pick). -But even if I had a chance to pick between Haden or Wilson at #17, I would still pass on Haden and take Kyle Wilson (better value, far more proven on tape).
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by SnakePlissken:
Seriously, what's with all the damn 'Joe Haden at #13' love throughout every mock draft on the web lately? I've seen endless tape on this guy (bowls/highlights/regular games) and I find his draft stock to be very misleading (within terms of delusional college-super-stardom over the realistic payoff in the NFL).

1. Haden was working with THE BEST D-LINE IN THE NATION (at Florida), so Joe barely had to worry about relying upon 'raw' instinctual coverage situations, and looked REALLY good because he had guys like Ahmad Black and Major Wright behind him, allowing Haden to harp upon (spread-out) positional advantages.

2. Guys built like Haden can only (really) find NFL success within stoic Tampa-2 based defenses (which we're not), where Joe would rarely play man coverage (based on how undersized Joe is realistically going to be compared to #1 WRs in the NFL).

Yes, Joe has NFL-ready potential (and playing in the SEC helps a lot), but no speed or fluidity (and I'm not even counting the misleading 40-time bs, this dude just has a low-motor). -Now I'm not bringing hate on this guy, but I'm just saying he isn't worth more than a mid-20 pick, taking him at the #13 spot sounds a little 'over the top'.

1- Florida's DL was def. a top 5 unit but debateable as to whether they were actually the best or not. The same argument that you are making about the talent around him can be used against other top prospects but Haden play on the field speaks for itself. When you watch him play he actually shows why he is the consensus #1 CB in this class.

2- 5"10 6/8th's and 193 pounds is not really undersized. While he could stand to fill out his frame a little better, I have no doubts that will come in his first few years as a pro. He is only 21.

There are a lot of CB's who are under 6 feet tall and 200 pounds who have found success at the NFL level playing either man or zone coverage (Asante Samuel, Darell Revis, Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, Cortland Finnegan to name a few).

I honestly don't know what you were watching if you think he doesn't play fast, or fluid for that matter. He also showed good man coverage skills, good ball skills and the willingness to hit.Every analyst in the country pretty much has him as being one of the top 15 prospects in the country and that hasn't really changed, especially after proving at his pro day on a wet track that he is faster than the combine indicated.
KRS-1 speaks da truff
The most recent yahoo mock draft has us taking him at 17 and trent williams at 13. The mock drafter must be a 49er fan, that would be a perfect day 1.



http://www.mynfldraft.com/NFL-Mock-Draft
[ Edited by LAFortyNinerfan on Apr 18, 2010 at 10:27 PM ]
Well, anybody that claims they know for sure that a player is this or that one way or another is full of themselves. Just look at past drafts. Also, I doubt any fan will admit after one year that they were wrong on a player. I have very rarely seen it on this forum. Plus we all know that one fan will diss anothers choice because they have a player they think is the one and anybody that doubts their word be damned.

Tell you what, the moderaters should create a pinned subject after the draft, everyone can keep it simple. They are happy and feel he is gonna be a bust/waste/decent/good/great player. If they disagree with who the niners picked say who they shoulda coulda picked and back it up.

We do this for first three rounds of niners draft. That way after one year we can go back at draft time again and see should stfu and who's got game

Remember, opinions are like a.h., everyones got one.
Originally posted by SnakePlissken:
Originally posted by footballxpaul:
what are you smoking, joe haden is a crazy gifted athlete and plays lights out. If you think he is over rated you have obviously never watched him play.

I'm not bashing the guy, I'm just saying his combined intangibles/physicality does not legitimately translate to that of a top-15 pick). -But even if I had a chance to pick between Haden or Wilson at #17, I would still pass on Haden and take Kyle Wilson (better value, far more proven on tape).

OK......My favorite college team plays in the WAC and even with all my homerness (you know what I mean) I will admit that the WAC can't hold the SEC's jock strap. Patrick Willis could play corner in the WAC and be all conference especially this year where the better teams in the WAC were all running teams (Nev, Idaho, and LT). You need to stop drinking the Koolaid if you think that anything Wilson did on the field this year compares to what Haden did. In fact Wilson's film doesn't even compare to how much Scandrick dominated the WAC and Scandrick is balling in the NFL now but he was drafted in the 5th round for a reason because the only film they had on him was against WAC competition. The reason scouts have Wilson rated so high is because of his size and 40 time combined with his senior bowl performance. But which WRs at the senior bowl will be good NFL WRs besides maybe Gillyard?
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by Niners23:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
No he isn't. Dude shut down LaFell and Gilyard this year. Plus he ran a much better 40 at his pro day after recovering from his back injury. He's not undersized either, he's nearly 5'11'' and there are plenty of CBs in the NFL 5'11''. Nate Clements was considered big and physical and he's only 5'10''. Shawntae Spencer is 6'0''. Asante Samuel is like 5'10''. Size certainly helps but he's not undersized like a Tarel Brown or Dre Bly(5'9'') and he's not slow.

Clements is 6'0"
Clements at NFL.com

Yeah he's listed at 6'0'' but when talking about our CBs before Sing said that Nate is under 6'0'' and he's listed there generally. Most players heights are in shoes/cleats and rounding up. Just look at what they do in the NBA. I'm sticking to what I said, he's not a huge corner. In shoes Haden is going to be pretty much the same height.

What?!? That's crazy! I always thought he was like 5'9"
if we were to address the secondary, I like Berry and then the other safety Thomas over Haden
[ Edited by blizzuntz on Apr 19, 2010 at 6:14 AM ]
Originally posted by Draftology:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by SnakePlissken:
Seriously, what's with all the damn 'Joe Haden at #13' love throughout every mock draft on the web lately? I've seen endless tape on this guy (bowls/highlights/regular games) and I find his draft stock to be very misleading (within terms of delusional college-super-stardom over the realistic payoff in the NFL).

1. Haden was working with THE BEST D-LINE IN THE NATION (at Florida), so Joe barely had to worry about relying upon 'raw' instinctual coverage situations, and looked REALLY good because he had guys like Ahmad Black and Major Wright behind him, allowing Haden to harp upon (spread-out) positional advantages.

2. Guys built like Haden can only (really) find NFL success within stoic Tampa-2 based defenses (which we're not), where Joe would rarely play man coverage (based on how undersized Joe is realistically going to be compared to #1 WRs in the NFL).

Yes, Joe has NFL-ready potential (and playing in the SEC helps a lot), but no speed or fluidity (and I'm not even counting the misleading 40-time bs, this dude just has a low-motor). -Now I'm not bringing hate on this guy, but I'm just saying he isn't worth more than a mid-20 pick, taking him at the #13 spot sounds a little 'over the top'.

1- Florida's DL was def. a top 5 unit but debateable as to whether they were actually the best or not. The same argument that you are making about the talent around him can be used against other top prospects but Haden play on the field speaks for itself. When you watch him play he actually shows why he is the consensus #1 CB in this class.

2- 5"10 6/8th's and 193 pounds is not really undersized. While he could stand to fill out his frame a little better, I have no doubts that will come in his first few years as a pro. He is only 21.

There are a lot of CB's who are under 6 feet tall and 200 pounds who have found success at the NFL level playing either man or zone coverage (Asante Samuel, Darell Revis, Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, Cortland Finnegan to name a few).

I honestly don't know what you were watching if you think he doesn't play fast, or fluid for that matter. He also showed good man coverage skills, good ball skills and the willingness to hit.Every analyst in the country pretty much has him as being one of the top 15 prospects in the country and that hasn't really changed, especially after proving at his pro day on a wet track that he is faster than the combine indicated.
KRS-1 speaks da truff

Well said

One thing to remember is that haden came to florida as a Quarterback and not as a CB. Haden has not fully learn the position and i think he has a high ceiling.
Originally posted by Niners23:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I think he is the best CB in this draft. And, I think the Niners would run their card to the podium in world-record time if he is on the board at 13.

Now, is he worth the 13th? That is a good question.

What's your take on that issue MadDog? Is Haden worthy of a 13th pick?

Worthy of the pick? Yes. But, there may be better guys on the board at the time. So, the team would have to see whose available. He's a solid player.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Niners23:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I think he is the best CB in this draft. And, I think the Niners would run their card to the podium in world-record time if he is on the board at 13.

Now, is he worth the 13th? That is a good question.

What's your take on that issue MadDog? Is Haden worthy of a 13th pick?

Worthy of the pick? Yes. But, there may be better guys on the board at the time. So, the team would have to see whose available. He's a solid player.

World record time? I kinda figured Crabtree had that honor...
Originally posted by SFCH3DDERZ:
um pretty sure our scouts did their homework. they will know if or not to pick him up.

that's the scary part our scouts???? so far our scouts have done what?
Joe Haden scares me. I also feel that he can be a potential bust!
Would love to see an OT or that G Upati (spelling) with our first pick, and then CB Kyle Wilson with our second first rd pick.