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Joe Haden runs a pedestrian 4.57 on his 40! (Eric Berry at 4.45)

Originally posted by SF69ers:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Originally posted by SF69ers:
Originally posted by mayo63:
Originally posted by SF69ers:
A lot of corners in the past didn't run a fast 40 and were very good pros.

Yeah, but their not elite.

Come on mayo, you don't think you're overreacting just a little bit about his 40? So when his pro day comes along and he runs a 4.3, that'll make him elite in your book?

I sure hope it doesn't make him a Niner.

Still don't understand why you wouldn't want him. He played very well in a tough conference. Great tackler, takes a good jump on the ball, has good recovery speed, and he's not afraid to help support against the run.

I'm still in the CJ Spiller bandwagon, but I'm just defending the fact that Haden is still a top 10 pick.

It's not that I don't want him, I don't wanna see anything but O line in the first round if it's available and the talent is there to go with it. That bieng said I wouldn't mind getting him if there were no talent on the line at that point in the draft which I don't think will be the case. As for the other remarks I was just bieng an a$$, had a bipolar moment.
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Berry, Williams, Haden, Spiller...


Honestly, I'd be good with any of those with our #13.

This
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 21,067
Originally posted by WINiner:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Berry, Williams, Haden, Spiller...


Honestly, I'd be good with any of those with our #13.

This

I agree also.
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

LOL you got me there I'm just tired of getting our QB'S off the grass after the play is over. It would be nice if we had an offensive line, I see so much talent and potential out there, and Mcnugget isn't that great at offensive lineman so I wish he would go for the gimme and get a first day O line.

KRS1 - You could do that with any position in the NFL. Tom Brady and Joe Montana where both 6th and 3rd round picks. Does that mean teams should wait until the later rounds to select a QB? No, the logic is flawed. No one is saying you cant find value in later rounds, what we are saying is your probablility of finding an elite player is much greater in the earlier rounds. Why do you think there is a draft value chart? Amazing...

P.S. As I've mentioned to you in other threads, certain teams are much better at identifying talent than others. Personally, I think the jury is still out on Scotty as most of his "Impact" players have been high in the first round. Manny hasn't done what he was suppose to, Gore would of been a first without injury and Balmer is a question mark, not to mention Baas, Brandon Williams, Coffee, Robinson, Wallace and a list of others Im too tired to mention.

The other thing that I would argue about your example list is they all have HOF QBs playing for them, not to mention a system that has been in place for some time. Last I check Alex hasn't made it into canton and Jimmy Raye is still calling the plays. That is why it's even more imperative we over compensate with very talented individuals.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Mar 2, 2010 at 12:19:01 ]
Like I mentioned in the Mays thread, I don't think Scotty Mac would draft Haden anyways, he has shown a strong tendency to fill secondary needs via FA or mid-late rounds in the draft.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

LOL you got me there I'm just tired of getting our QB'S off the grass after the play is over. It would be nice if we had an offensive line, I see so much talent and potential out there, and Mcnugget isn't that great at offensive lineman so I wish he would go for the gimme and get a first day O line.

KRS1 - You could do that with any position in the NFL. Tom Brady and Joe Montana where both 6th and 3rd round picks. Does that mean teams should wait until the later rounds to select a QB? No, the logic is flawed. No one is saying you cant find value in later rounds, what we are saying is your probablility of finding an elite player is much greater in the earlier rounds. Why do you think there is a draft value chart? Amazing...

See my post after that one. You obviously missed it, and my point. Go back a page or 2 and read his posts then re-read mine.

Nonetheless, 2 of the starting lineman we have were 1st or 2nd round picks. 1 is mediocre, 1 is still an uncertainty and the other is a quality lineman showing that Scot is not against drafting OL early.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:


P.S. As I've mentioned to you in other threads, certain teams are much better at identifying talent than others. Personally, I think the jury is still out on Scotty as most of his "Impact" players have been high in the first round. Manny hasn't done what he was suppose to, Gore would of been a first without injury and Balmer is a question mark, not to mention Baas, Brandon Williams, Coffee, Robinson, Wallace and a list of others Im too tired to mention.

You can take Coffee out of that equation he has few career carries as a pro with shoddy playcalling when he was in the game to base a fair evaluation off of.

Some of those mid-round picks are not even Scot's. Nolan had final say at that time.
Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
Originally posted by foreign49er:
Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
I understand we can add guard in the second or 3rd. But I want elite! I want the #1 OG who by all expert opinion will be a pro-bowler for years to come. I seriously don't want a CB with the first pick, or second for that matter. I rate CB as the #5 teamneed at the moment. #1 is OT, #2 is LG, #3 is S, #4 is Passrushing OLB, THEN CB at #5. There were only 3 teams better at scoring defense than us last year...the Jets, Ravens(surprisingly), and the Cowpukes....ON the flipside, there were 26 teams who were better on offense than us. I miss the days of the 40 point maulings we inflicted on the league, and we'll never get there without an "elite" offensive line.

I'm pretty sure most zoners here agree that fixing the line was the biggest offseason issue. You can't win if you don't score, and we wont be scoring with 2 guys hammering alex and gore getting stuffed all the time.



Nobody said we don't need people on the offensive line, but Haden is Iupati but at corner. Pro-Bowl corners are harder to find than Pro-bowl Guards. I think everybody can agree on that too. Your draft strategy is need over BPA, mine is BPA over need when you can fill the need later on. Rather than need first then BPA later on.

I think you can waste a pick on an elite Guard, but you'll never waste a pick on an elite corner.

I wouldn't consider selecting Iupati a wasted pick when our OL was ranked DEAD LAST in football last year, and is arguably the weakest unit on our team. I'd consider it filling our biggest need by adding a perennial probowler. And about BPA vs drafting for Need....I think you need a mixture of both. I wouldn't want the BPA on the board if it's an inside linbacker when we pick. Hard to argue that we'd do any better than willis...EVER :) What we NEED is OL, and QUALITY OL is mainly found in the first round...even guards. Iupati is Quality, and will be gone by the end of the first. CB is NOT our most pressing need, and we NEED to fill our TEAM NEEDS with the elite talent that can be found in ROund 1 of one of the deepest drafts in a loooooonnnnngggg time. I'd hate to say it, but BPA isn't ALWAYS the best strategy. Would the colts take Claussen if he's still on the board at #30?

Our O-line was ranked dead-last based on what? One person's opinion of what constitutes a good O-line? We had a bad O-line, but don't panic and snap at O-lineman when there are more valuable players available.

If the right ILB is there we should take him, Take won't play forever, this might actually be his last year. Willis isn't the only ILB on the team, we run a 3-4. CB isn't our most pressing need but Clements has already lost a step and we know we'll need to find his replacement soon. Tarrell Brown hasn't really become the player we thought he would and Spencer isn't a true #1 so who steps in as #1 once Clements is gone?

And yes, the Colts would take Clausen. They'd be crapping their pants if they got Clausen. Believe it or not, Peyton Manning won't be around forever. I know it's hard to believe seeing how long Favre is playing but most quarterbacks actually do retire. If they draft Clausen they get the #2 QB in the draft at the 30th slot. Clausen succeeding Manning would be a dream scenario for any Colts fan.

Last year the 49ers #1 need was RT, we passed and took the BPA. We didn't have a second 1st round pick. This year we do, it's a no-brainer to go BPA then RT; fill a need and get a potential pro-bowler. If Iupati wasn't able to move to LT later on, he wouldn't even be in the 1st round conversation. He will be good but it's much much easier to find good guards in later rounds than it is to find good corners in later rounds. I'm not saying it's impossible, but personally I'd feel better taking the best corner that early than taking the best guard.

[ Edited by foreign49er on Mar 2, 2010 at 12:25:20 ]
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:


P.S. As I've mentioned to you in other threads, certain teams are much better at identifying talent than others. Personally, I think the jury is still out on Scotty as most of his "Impact" players have been high in the first round. Manny hasn't done what he was suppose to, Gore would of been a first without injury and Balmer is a question mark, not to mention Baas, Brandon Williams, Coffee, Robinson, Wallace and a list of others Im too tired to mention.

You can take Coffee out of that equation he has few career carries as a pro with shoddy playcalling when he was in the game to base a fair evaluation off of.

Some of those mid-round picks are not even Scot's. Nolan had final say at that time.[/quote]

Like I said, the jury is still out. IMO, he hasn't proven to be anything special as a GM. Outside of Gore, none of his later round picks could be considered diamonds in the rough. Maybe Goldson if he pans out.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

LOL you got me there I'm just tired of getting our QB'S off the grass after the play is over. It would be nice if we had an offensive line, I see so much talent and potential out there, and Mcnugget isn't that great at offensive lineman so I wish he would go for the gimme and get a first day O line.

KRS1 - You could do that with any position in the NFL. Tom Brady and Joe Montana where both 6th and 3rd round picks. Does that mean teams should wait until the later rounds to select a QB? No, the logic is flawed. No one is saying you cant find value in later rounds, what we are saying is your probablility of finding an elite player is much greater in the earlier rounds. Why do you think there is a draft value chart? Amazing...

Agreed...these were success stories, and for every success story of a guy drafted lower than the 2nd round, there's a MILLION of failure stories. The probability of getting an elite OLman in the first 2 rounds is WAAAY better than 3 though 7. Same goes for CB's and evey other positon. Yes, you may get lucky here and there.....but picking em early is better if you wanna slim your odds of drafting a bust. What about a list of top 15 OT's Taken, and how many fail to contrast your hard work it took to compile your "later round gem" list? I can appreciate the work you put into your post, even if I don't agree with it.

Again, we have different opinions of what our team needs. I believe OL is the weakest unit we have, and you'd rather draft a CB. I still think that the #27 offense ranking trumps the #4 scoring defensive ranking...and think we should draft OFFENSE with our best picks. We clearly need help on offense more than we need help on defense. I'd still be happy if we took haden(given he'll run faster at his proday), and hope for Jon Asamoah, Illinois, 6-4, 305 in the 2nd if we do.
I just saw Earl Thomas leave tire marks on Haden's back. Thomas has jumped right over him, regardless whether he plays corner or safety.

Reality check for Niners' fans: This team needs OL...badly. We already have two solid starting CB's in Clements and Spencer, a good nickel in Brown, and an old vet in Walt Harris, who would be just fine as a dime corner in 2010. The CB position should not even be a consideration until the second or third round, and for primarily a player who returns punts.

Look for the Niners to draft Perrish Cox in the second round.
One of the oddities about the NFL combine is how much a bad performance, or a little bad ink on an otherwise spectacular player can drop them down --- right to a much better team that can use them immediately.

For every guy that uses the week in Indy to catapult himself to greater cash -- think Darrius Heyward-Bey -- there's the types like Warren Sapp who through either a bad workout or bad press fall into the laps of teams later on.

And as the questions pile up on a guy like Joe Haden, with a questionable forty-time and other small blips, you have to wonder if a team like San Francisco, with a pair of picks in the teens, could see the player who, on film, is the consensus top CB available, fall.

It's worth watching with Haden. Many have him pegged to a team like Cleveland with the No. 7 pick, but a bad forty-time repeated at his pro day could have teams finding great value. If your team needs a CB and you pick past No. 10, Haden may have done your team a great favor today.

from ESPN

[ Edited by valrod33 on Mar 2, 2010 at 12:35:33 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I just saw Earl Thomas leave tire marks on Haden's back. Thomas has jumped right over him, regardless whether he plays corner or safety.

Reality check for Niners' fans: This team needs OL...badly. We already have two solid starting CB's in Clements and Spencer, a good nickel in Brown, and an old vet in Walt Harris, who would be just fine as a dime corner in 2010. The CB position should not even be a consideration until the second or third round, and for primarily a player who returns punts.

Look for the Niners to draft Perrish Cox in the second round.

Perfect fit, except for that Scotty Mac don't draft secondary before the 3rd round.
Originally posted by valrod33:
One of the oddities about the NFL combine is how much a bad performance, or a little bad ink on an otherwise spectacular player can drop them down --- right to a much better team that can use them immediately.

For every guy that uses the week in Indy to catapult himself to greater cash -- think Darrius Heyward-Bey -- there's the types like Warren Sapp who through either a bad workout or bad press fall into the laps of teams later on.

And as the questions pile up on a guy like Joe Haden, with a questionable forty-time and other small blips, you have to wonder if a team like San Francisco, with a pair of picks in the teens, could see the player who, on film, is the consensus top CB available, fall.

It's worth watching with Haden. Many have him pegged to a team like Cleveland with the No. 7 pick, but a bad forty-time repeated at his pro day could have teams finding great value. If your team needs a CB and you pick past No. 10, Haden may have done your team a great favor today.

from ESPN

LOL...at first I was like damn Valrod is writing a real post and not a joke..then I see it's from ESPN
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I just saw Earl Thomas leave tire marks on Haden's back. Thomas has jumped right over him, regardless whether he plays corner or safety.

Reality check for Niners' fans: This team needs OL...badly. We already have two solid starting CB's in Clements and Spencer, a good nickel in Brown, and an old vet in Walt Harris, who would be just fine as a dime corner in 2010. The CB position should not even be a consideration until the second or third round, and for primarily a player who returns punts.

Look for the Niners to draft Perrish Cox in the second round.

Amen Maddog! Amen!