Joe Haden runs a pedestrian 4.57 on his 40! (Eric Berry at 4.45)

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
I understand we can add guard in the second or 3rd. But I want elite! I want the #1 OG who by all expert opinion will be a pro-bowler for years to come. I seriously don't want a CB with the first pick, or second for that matter. I rate CB as the #5 teamneed at the moment. #1 is OT, #2 is LG, #3 is S, #4 is Passrushing OLB, THEN CB at #5. There were only 3 teams better at scoring defense than us last year...the Jets, Ravens(surprisingly), and the Cowpukes....ON the flipside, there were 26 teams who were better on offense than us. I miss the days of the 40 point maulings we inflicted on the league, and we'll never get there without an "elite" offensive line.

I'm pretty sure most zoners here agree that fixing the line was the biggest offseason issue. You can't win if you don't score, and we wont be scoring with 2 guys hammering alex and gore getting stuffed all the time.

Nobody said we don't need people on the offensive line, but Haden is Iupati but at corner. Pro-Bowl corners are harder to find than Pro-bowl Guards. I think everybody can agree on that too. Your draft strategy is need over BPA, mine is BPA over need when you can fill the need later on. Rather than need first then BPA later on.

I think you can waste a pick on an elite Guard, but you'll never waste a pick on an elite corner.

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
For comparisons sake........Revis is listed at 6ft , Asomungha is 6-2, and Charles Woodson is 6-1. Arguably the best CB's in the game, and all over 6 foot.

you said who is gonna cover Fitzgerald, we had to 6foot CBs in Spencer and Clements who have basically shutdown Fitz the past years when he has played agaisnt us.

Im sorry but you are crazy if you wouldnt want Haden jsut because he is 5'11 and 3/4

actually he^s five ten and three quarters...and i dont want him because he^s shorter than the elite cb's...i dont want him because he's slow, we need offensive line worse, and by taking him, we lose out on guys like baluga or Iupati.

allow me to clarify. It's not because he's short that I don't want Haden. It's because he's slow, and we have bigger needs than CB right now. And yes, by selecting haden, We lose either Baluga or Iupati....and have to draft OL in the second round instead of the first. I feel much more confident in a Baluga caliber player vs a Charles Brown tier 2 OT. CB is WAAAAY less of a need than OL IMHO, If baluga is there at #13, I want him, and if Iupati is there at #17, I want him to. If only it were up to me.

Just to be clear. In possibly the deepest draft since 1983 you're going to pass on the best corner to take the 4-5 best OT? (RT on our team, not the highly valued LT) then possibly pass on him again to take a LG? There's no way both Bulaga and Iupati are gone at #17, and there's no way we should spend both 1st round picks on the OL in a draft this deep.

Just to be clear in your words, I won't be a Niner fan this year if we don't take any offensive lineman in the first. You would have to be an idiot , which may be the case I don't know you, if you think we can fix this O line doing what we have been doing, obviously it hasn't worked thus far and will not work now. It is time for a change of strategy DRAFT O LINE ALL FIRST ROUND I DON'T CARE IF BARRY SANDERS, DREW BREES, LAWRENCE TAYLOR, JERRY RICE ARE ON THE TABLE YOU DRAFT O LINE FIRST THAN WORRY ABOUT OTHER POSITIONS. Thank you.

Originally posted by filthydogma:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
For comparisons sake........Revis is listed at 6ft , Asomungha is 6-2, and Charles Woodson is 6-1. Arguably the best CB's in the game, and all over 6 foot.

you said who is gonna cover Fitzgerald, we had to 6foot CBs in Spencer and Clements who have basically shutdown Fitz the past years when he has played agaisnt us.

Im sorry but you are crazy if you wouldnt want Haden jsut because he is 5'11 and 3/4

actually he^s five ten and three quarters...and i dont want him because he^s shorter than the elite cb's...i dont want him because he's slow, we need offensive line worse, and by taking him, we lose out on guys like baluga or Iupati.

allow me to clarify. It's not because he's short that I don't want Haden. It's because he's slow, and we have bigger needs than CB right now. And yes, by selecting haden, We lose either Baluga or Iupati....and have to draft OL in the second round instead of the first. I feel much more confident in a Baluga caliber player vs a Charles Brown tier 2 OT. CB is WAAAAY less of a need than OL IMHO, If baluga is there at #13, I want him, and if Iupati is there at #17, I want him to. If only it were up to me.

Just to be clear. In possibly the deepest draft since 1983 you're going to pass on the best corner to take the 4-5 best OT? (RT on our team, not the highly valued LT) then possibly pass on him again to take a LG? There's no way both Bulaga and Iupati are gone at #17, and there's no way we should spend both 1st round picks on the OL in a draft this deep.

Just to be clear in your words, I won't be a Niner fan this year if we don't take any offensive lineman in the first. You would have to be an idiot , which may be the case I don't know you, if you think we can fix this O line doing what we have been doing, obviously it hasn't worked thus far and will not work now. It is time for a change of strategy DRAFT O LINE ALL FIRST ROUND I DON'T CARE IF BARRY SANDERS, DREW BREES, LAWRENCE TAYLOR, JERRY RICE ARE ON THE TABLE YOU DRAFT O LINE FIRST THAN WORRY ABOUT OTHER POSITIONS. Thank you.

What? I never said that.

We obviously have differing views on draft strategy. I would take all those players over an Offensive Guard or a Right Tackle. But that's just me.

[ Edited by foreign49er on Mar 2, 2010 at 11:00:33 ]

Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
I understand we can add guard in the second or 3rd. But I want elite! I want the #1 OG who by all expert opinion will be a pro-bowler for years to come. I seriously don't want a CB with the first pick, or second for that matter. I rate CB as the #5 teamneed at the moment. #1 is OT, #2 is LG, #3 is S, #4 is Passrushing OLB, THEN CB at #5. There were only 3 teams better at scoring defense than us last year...the Jets, Ravens(surprisingly), and the Cowpukes....ON the flipside, there were 26 teams who were better on offense than us. I miss the days of the 40 point maulings we inflicted on the league, and we'll never get there without an "elite" offensive line.

I'm pretty sure most zoners here agree that fixing the line was the biggest offseason issue. You can't win if you don't score, and we wont be scoring with 2 guys hammering alex and gore getting stuffed all the time.

Nobody said we don't need people on the offensive line, but Haden is Iupati but at corner. Pro-Bowl corners are harder to find than Pro-bowl Guards. I think everybody can agree on that too. Your draft strategy is need over BPA, mine is BPA over need when you can fill the need later on. Rather than need first then BPA later on.

I think you can waste a pick on an elite Guard, but you'll never waste a pick on an elite corner.

I wouldn't consider selecting Iupati a wasted pick when our OL was ranked DEAD LAST in football last year, and is arguably the weakest unit on our team. I'd consider it filling our biggest need by adding a perennial probowler. And about BPA vs drafting for Need....I think you need a mixture of both. I wouldn't want the BPA on the board if it's an inside linbacker when we pick. Hard to argue that we'd do any better than willis...EVER :) What we NEED is OL, and QUALITY OL is mainly found in the first round...even guards. Iupati is Quality, and will be gone by the end of the first. CB is NOT our most pressing need, and we NEED to fill our TEAM NEEDS with the elite talent that can be found in ROund 1 of one of the deepest drafts in a loooooonnnnngggg time. I'd hate to say it, but BPA isn't ALWAYS the best strategy. Would the colts take Claussen if he's still on the board at #30?

Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

No foriegn49er I was stating that , I would not be a Niner fan if we do not draft O line in this draft, not you. Sorry about the bad attitude about the draft I just know that McClueless will mess this up. There now we can be friends again.

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
I understand we can add guard in the second or 3rd. But I want elite! I want the #1 OG who by all expert opinion will be a pro-bowler for years to come. I seriously don't want a CB with the first pick, or second for that matter. I rate CB as the #5 teamneed at the moment. #1 is OT, #2 is LG, #3 is S, #4 is Passrushing OLB, THEN CB at #5. There were only 3 teams better at scoring defense than us last year...the Jets, Ravens(surprisingly), and the Cowpukes....ON the flipside, there were 26 teams who were better on offense than us. I miss the days of the 40 point maulings we inflicted on the league, and we'll never get there without an "elite" offensive line.

I'm pretty sure most zoners here agree that fixing the line was the biggest offseason issue. You can't win if you don't score, and we wont be scoring with 2 guys hammering alex and gore getting stuffed all the time.

Nobody said we don't need people on the offensive line, but Haden is Iupati but at corner. Pro-Bowl corners are harder to find than Pro-bowl Guards. I think everybody can agree on that too. Your draft strategy is need over BPA, mine is BPA over need when you can fill the need later on. Rather than need first then BPA later on.

I think you can waste a pick on an elite Guard, but you'll never waste a pick on an elite corner.

You can't call Haden an elite corner when he runs a 4.6 forty.

Originally posted by mayo63:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
I understand we can add guard in the second or 3rd. But I want elite! I want the #1 OG who by all expert opinion will be a pro-bowler for years to come. I seriously don't want a CB with the first pick, or second for that matter. I rate CB as the #5 teamneed at the moment. #1 is OT, #2 is LG, #3 is S, #4 is Passrushing OLB, THEN CB at #5. There were only 3 teams better at scoring defense than us last year...the Jets, Ravens(surprisingly), and the Cowpukes....ON the flipside, there were 26 teams who were better on offense than us. I miss the days of the 40 point maulings we inflicted on the league, and we'll never get there without an "elite" offensive line.

I'm pretty sure most zoners here agree that fixing the line was the biggest offseason issue. You can't win if you don't score, and we wont be scoring with 2 guys hammering alex and gore getting stuffed all the time.

Nobody said we don't need people on the offensive line, but Haden is Iupati but at corner. Pro-Bowl corners are harder to find than Pro-bowl Guards. I think everybody can agree on that too. Your draft strategy is need over BPA, mine is BPA over need when you can fill the need later on. Rather than need first then BPA later on.

I think you can waste a pick on an elite Guard, but you'll never waste a pick on an elite corner.

You can't call Haden an elite corner when he runs a 4.6 forty.

You can't believe his true 40 is 4.6 when you watch tape and then watch how horrible his stance was when he ran it. 40 times can be overrated and overvalued, the kid is a player plain and simple. He will likely run another 40 at his pro day and will have a better stance and time.

Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

We have two picks in the 1st which makes it a little flexible for us to use one on a luxury pick like Spiller or Haden. Yes we need an o-lineman. We could use out 17th pick on a tackle or Iupati. If we don't get Iupati, there are other good guards in the 3rd that aren't getting much attention because they're strictly guards and not like Iupati who may have a shot to slide to tackle. That's the difference.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by mayo63:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
I understand we can add guard in the second or 3rd. But I want elite! I want the #1 OG who by all expert opinion will be a pro-bowler for years to come. I seriously don't want a CB with the first pick, or second for that matter. I rate CB as the #5 teamneed at the moment. #1 is OT, #2 is LG, #3 is S, #4 is Passrushing OLB, THEN CB at #5. There were only 3 teams better at scoring defense than us last year...the Jets, Ravens(surprisingly), and the Cowpukes....ON the flipside, there were 26 teams who were better on offense than us. I miss the days of the 40 point maulings we inflicted on the league, and we'll never get there without an "elite" offensive line.

I'm pretty sure most zoners here agree that fixing the line was the biggest offseason issue. You can't win if you don't score, and we wont be scoring with 2 guys hammering alex and gore getting stuffed all the time.

Nobody said we don't need people on the offensive line, but Haden is Iupati but at corner. Pro-Bowl corners are harder to find than Pro-bowl Guards. I think everybody can agree on that too. Your draft strategy is need over BPA, mine is BPA over need when you can fill the need later on. Rather than need first then BPA later on.

I think you can waste a pick on an elite Guard, but you'll never waste a pick on an elite corner.

You can't call Haden an elite corner when he runs a 4.6 forty.

You can't believe his true 40 is 4.6 when you watch tape and then watch how horrible his stance was when he ran it. 40 times can be overrated and overvalued, the kid is a player plain and simple. He will likely run another 40 at his pro day and will have a better stance and time.

Yup. On the field he's fast which is what matters, not a race where everything depends on your stance and technique. Running a 40 is a lot different than on field speed.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

LOL you got me there I'm just tired of getting our QB'S off the grass after the play is over. It would be nice if we had an offensive line, I see so much talent and potential out there, and Mcnugget isn't that great at offensive lineman so I wish he would go for the gimme and get a first day O line.

Originally posted by mayo63:
You can't call Haden an elite corner when he runs a 4.6 forty.

His 40 has exactly zero bearing on whether or not he will be an elite back in the NFL.

Gentlemen (and Ladies too--don't want be chauvenist), Joe Haden ran a 4.57 without pads. Sometimes I think the 40 is overrated because you don't know how fast the person is when he is in real football gear. Look at WR Jason Hill. He had one of the fastest 40s at the combine when he came out. But does he play like that? No. When you have twenty pounds of pads and gear on, it slows you down. Jerry Rice will not beat anyone in a footrace on track. But when he has the pads on the gridiron, even Deion could not catch him. That is football functional speed and the only way to see it is by watching film. Film does not lie.

Taylor Mays is going to have his stock rise because of it but he is still that same player on film who makes little plays. If Joe Haden does drop to 13, will have to look real carefully at that value.

Originally posted by sspiker:

Originally posted by mayo63:
You can't call Haden an elite corner when he runs a 4.6 forty.

His 40 has exactly zero bearing on whether or not he will be an elite back in the NFL.

If he can't stay with a speedy reciever how does that make him elite?