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Joe Haden runs a pedestrian 4.57 on his 40! (Eric Berry at 4.45)

  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,945
Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

LOL you got me there I'm just tired of getting our QB'S off the grass after the play is over. It would be nice if we had an offensive line, I see so much talent and potential out there, and Mcnugget isn't that great at offensive lineman so I wish he would go for the gimme and get a first day O line.

KRS1 - You could do that with any position in the NFL. Tom Brady and Joe Montana where both 6th and 3rd round picks. Does that mean teams should wait until the later rounds to select a QB? No, the logic is flawed. No one is saying you cant find value in later rounds, what we are saying is your probablility of finding an elite player is much greater in the earlier rounds. Why do you think there is a draft value chart? Amazing...

Agreed...these were success stories, and for every success story of a guy drafted lower than the 2nd round, there's a MILLION of failure stories. The probability of getting an elite OLman in the first 2 rounds is WAAAY better than 3 though 7. Same goes for CB's and evey other positon. Yes, you may get lucky here and there.....but picking em early is better if you wanna slim your odds of drafting a bust. What about a list of top 15 OT's Taken, and how many fail to contrast your hard work it took to compile your "later round gem" list? I can appreciate the work you put into your post, even if I don't agree with it.

Again, we have different opinions of what our team needs. I believe OL is the weakest unit we have, and you'd rather draft a CB. I still think that the #27 offense ranking trumps the #4 scoring defensive ranking...and think we should draft OFFENSE with our best picks. We clearly need help on offense more than we need help on defense. I'd still be happy if we took haden(given he'll run faster at his proday), and hope for Jon Asamoah, Illinois, 6-4, 305 in the 2nd if we do.

I NEVER said that. And you need to read my post after the one you are quoting.

You're right. Scrolling through you posts, you NEVER said you wanted a CB. However, you gave examples of Guards and OTackes drafter later, and defended the elite CB status of haden. Reading between the lines leads me to believe you'd rather take OL help later and Draft Haden if he's there. Am I mistaken? I just thought coming into this season that the general consensus was our glaring need for OL upgrades.....

I'd take whatever value picks I can get. I would not reach, but go BPA regardless of position. I believe in that mindset and in sticking to your draft board. If a player at a position of need is reach/present no value when I am OTC, I will look to either take BPA or trade down if opportunity knocks.

I would hope for 1 OL in the first and another in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th which is also what I think we will do.
  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,029
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by JizzmasterZero:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

LOL you got me there I'm just tired of getting our QB'S off the grass after the play is over. It would be nice if we had an offensive line, I see so much talent and potential out there, and Mcnugget isn't that great at offensive lineman so I wish he would go for the gimme and get a first day O line.

KRS1 - You could do that with any position in the NFL. Tom Brady and Joe Montana where both 6th and 3rd round picks. Does that mean teams should wait until the later rounds to select a QB? No, the logic is flawed. No one is saying you cant find value in later rounds, what we are saying is your probablility of finding an elite player is much greater in the earlier rounds. Why do you think there is a draft value chart? Amazing...

Agreed...these were success stories, and for every success story of a guy drafted lower than the 2nd round, there's a MILLION of failure stories. The probability of getting an elite OLman in the first 2 rounds is WAAAY better than 3 though 7. Same goes for CB's and evey other positon. Yes, you may get lucky here and there.....but picking em early is better if you wanna slim your odds of drafting a bust. What about a list of top 15 OT's Taken, and how many fail to contrast your hard work it took to compile your "later round gem" list? I can appreciate the work you put into your post, even if I don't agree with it.

Again, we have different opinions of what our team needs. I believe OL is the weakest unit we have, and you'd rather draft a CB. I still think that the #27 offense ranking trumps the #4 scoring defensive ranking...and think we should draft OFFENSE with our best picks. We clearly need help on offense more than we need help on defense. I'd still be happy if we took haden(given he'll run faster at his proday), and hope for Jon Asamoah, Illinois, 6-4, 305 in the 2nd if we do.

I NEVER said that. And you need to read my post after the one you are quoting.

You're right. Scrolling through you posts, you NEVER said you wanted a CB. However, you gave examples of Guards and OTackes drafter later, and defended the elite CB status of haden. Reading between the lines leads me to believe you'd rather take OL help later and Draft Haden if he's there. Am I mistaken? I just thought coming into this season that the general consensus was our glaring need for OL upgrades.....

I'd take whatever value picks I can get. I would not reach, but go BPA regardless of position. I believe in that mindset and in sticking to your draft board. If a player at a position of need is reach/present no value when I am OTC, I will look to either take BPA or trade down if opportunity knocks.

I would hope for 1 OL in the first and another in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th which is also what I think we will do.

You are right, we need to stick to BPA and not reach for OL at our slot unless the OL player avail is the BPA or right around BPA. No need to reach and end up with another Kwame Harris.
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,945
Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

Good post. Although I do want to know, did the Saints, Pats and Colts invest picks in high round picks in the line only for them to fail and be overtaken by the latter round picks?

-9fA

The Colts took Ugoh and Pollak in back to back years (08 & 09) and neither have panned out to date.

The Saints have 1st round pick Jamaal Brown who has been average at LT but won the SB with a 4th rounder as the LT due to an injury to Brown.

I think they all have never shied from taking an OL early but have found good values in mid rounds or via FA as well and are always looking to find players of value wherever and whenever they can find them.

An interesting note the Saints and Pats have taken 1 OL this decade in the first round (Mankins at the tail end for NE, Brown in the middle of the 1st for N.O.) whereas the Colts have not taken a single OL in the first in this decade.

All those teams have great QB's which help immensely yes, but it's interesting to see that the Colts and Pats have not needed to spend their top pick each year to build a respectable OL. Makes me question how good are our area scouts and how much Scot (and Nolan) have listened to them vs taking what they considered were the better football players.
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

Good post. Although I do want to know, did the Saints, Pats and Colts invest picks in high round picks in the line only for them to fail and be overtaken by the latter round picks?

-9fA

The Colts took Ugoh and Pollak in back to back years (08 & 09) and neither have panned out to date.

The Saints have 1st round pick Jamaal Brown who has been average at LT but won the SB with a 4th rounder as the LT due to an injury to Brown.

I think they all have never shied from taking an OL early but have found good values in mid rounds or via FA as well and are always looking to find players of value wherever and whenever they can find them.

An interesting note the Saints and Pats have taken 1 OL this decade in the first round (Mankins at the tail end for NE, Brown in the middle of the 1st for N.O.) whereas the Colts have not taken a single OL in the first in this decade.

All those teams have great QB's which help immensely yes, but it's interesting to see that the Colts and Pats have not needed to spend their top pick each year to build a respectable OL. Makes me question how good are our area scouts and how much Scot (and Nolan) have listened to them vs taking what they considered were the better football players.

You are forgetting one other big factor-good coaching. The niners seleted two OL in Walshes time in the first-Bubba and Barton. However they had a great OL coach. Plus there off. schemes weren't so predictable-both of which the pats saints and colts have.
  • TX9R
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,146
A great QB can make an average line look better than it is. That's not something to just brush aside. We do not have a great QB, we need to follow the Jets model and build a great line.
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,945
Originally posted by TX9R:
A great QB can make an average line look better than it is. That's not something to just brush aside. We do not have a great QB, we need to follow the Jets model and build a great line.

We have in a way. 3 OL drafted inside the top 40 picks and signing a big name FA OT (Jennings) in 5 years.
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,945
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by filthydogma:
Really I can't stand the fact that people ,our own FO included, think that we can just dream up a starter out of the third fourth or fifth round. Let me tell you something that my mom used to say "just cause you put syrup on s&%t doesn't make it pancakes"

One of the best LT's in the NFL, Michael Roos was a 2nd round pick. OL do not need to be selected in the 1st round to be great. Go look at the Saints OL that got them to the SB :

LT Jermon Bushrod 4th round (The usual starter has been out all year but Jammal Brown was a 1st round pick)
LG Carl Nicks - 5th round
C Jonathan Goodwin 5th round (originally drafted by NYJ)
RG Jahri Evans 4th round
RT Jon Stinchcomb 2nd round

The Colts :

LT Charlie Johnson: Sixth-round pick, 2006
LG Ryan Lilja: Claimed off waivers from Chiefs, 2004
C Jeff Saturday: Undrafted free agent, 1999
RG Kyle DeVan: Undrafted free agent, 2008
RT Ryan Diem: Fourth-round pick, 2001

The Pats when they won their 1st SB :

LT Matt Light 2nd round
LG Mike Compton 3rd round pick (signed from Detroit)
C Damien Woody 1st round
RG Joe Andruzzi UDFA (Claimed off waivers from Packers)
RT Greg Robinson-Randall 4th round

So pass the s**t before my pancakes get cold while I stand by the BPA philosophy.

Good post. Although I do want to know, did the Saints, Pats and Colts invest picks in high round picks in the line only for them to fail and be overtaken by the latter round picks?

-9fA

The Colts took Ugoh and Pollak in back to back years (08 & 09) and neither have panned out to date.

The Saints have 1st round pick Jamaal Brown who has been average at LT but won the SB with a 4th rounder as the LT due to an injury to Brown.

I think they all have never shied from taking an OL early but have found good values in mid rounds or via FA as well and are always looking to find players of value wherever and whenever they can find them.

An interesting note the Saints and Pats have taken 1 OL this decade in the first round (Mankins at the tail end for NE, Brown in the middle of the 1st for N.O.) whereas the Colts have not taken a single OL in the first in this decade.

All those teams have great QB's which help immensely yes, but it's interesting to see that the Colts and Pats have not needed to spend their top pick each year to build a respectable OL. Makes me question how good are our area scouts and how much Scot (and Nolan) have listened to them vs taking what they considered were the better football players.

You are forgetting one other big factor-good coaching. The niners seleted two OL in Walshes time in the first-Bubba and Barton. However they had a great OL coach. Plus there off. schemes weren't so predictable-both of which the pats saints and colts have.

Did we have it last year ? Doesn't look like it, but why would Shanny hire Foerster if he wasn't a good or great coach ?

Solari certainly has a better track record, but hearing he wants to employ both zone and man schemes make me cringe just a little. Sounds familiar to playing that awful hybrid D we played. I'll give him benefit of the doubt and see how things pan out first.

I agree and left it out of my post but yes good coaching is a MUST.

[ Edited by KRS-1 on Mar 2, 2010 at 14:18:01 ]
  • TX9R
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,146
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by TX9R:
A great QB can make an average line look better than it is. That's not something to just brush aside. We do not have a great QB, we need to follow the Jets model and build a great line.

We have in a way. 3 OL drafted inside the top 40 picks and signing a big name FA OT (Jennings) in 5 years.

Oh we've tried, but that's different than having success. We have been unlucky in that the FAs have just not been able to stay healthy and that Harris was a huge bust. The Jets just ended up with better players, we have to continue to try until we get it right, so far Staley is a good start and Heitmann is solid, Rachal and Baas really haven't played enough to make an assesment, we simply need a RT and some depth if the Gs don't work out long term. I think this will be the plan in the draft.
Haden's interviews remind me of Crabtree, he needs to work on them a little:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-player-interviews/09000d5d816b2919/Joe-Haden-combine-interview
Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Haden's interviews remind me of Crabtree, he needs to work on them a little:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-player-interviews/09000d5d816b2919/Joe-Haden-combine-interview

he sounds like Roy Jones JR
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by TX9R:
Sounds a lot like Jenkins fall last year. Reiterates my concerns about him months ago. He looked good because the WRs and QBs in the SEC weren't very good last year. Tough to evaluate a guy in that scenario. I try not to put too much stock in the combine numbers, but personally I just didn't think Haden was special before hand.

Malcolm Jenkins: 6′0″, 204 lb, 4.53 40-yard dash

.
Joe Haden: 5'10 3/4, 193lb, 4.57 40-yard dash

Wow! Earl Thomas is bigger and faster
Haden better pray his azz turns it around on his pro day, or he's going to go on a big slide. All I can say is WOW, he didn't look good at all today.
Originally posted by BigDaddy:
Haden better pray his azz turns it around on his pro day, or he's going to go on a big slide. All I can say is WOW, he didn't look good at all today.

I thought he looked pretty good in drills, not too good at all in the 40.
Originally posted by foreign49er:
Originally posted by BigDaddy:
Haden better pray his azz turns it around on his pro day, or he's going to go on a big slide. All I can say is WOW, he didn't look good at all today.

I thought he looked pretty good in drills, not too good at all in the 40.

Not compared to Mays and Berry he didn't. They kept talking how stiff his hips looked.
Originally posted by BigDaddy:
Originally posted by foreign49er:
Originally posted by BigDaddy:
Haden better pray his azz turns it around on his pro day, or he's going to go on a big slide. All I can say is WOW, he didn't look good at all today.

I thought he looked pretty good in drills, not too good at all in the 40.

Not compared to Mays and Berry he didn't. They kept talking how stiff his hips looked.

Berry I agree with but Mays? Mays' change of direction was slow and his hips looked a lot stiffer than Haden's. Berry looked the best but Haden didn't look bad at all after the 40 either.