Right Tackle?

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by SF69ers:
Right Tackle has to be a pick with at least one of our first rounders. Did you watch the last couple of games this past season? We were supposed to run over the Detroit Lions and the St.Louis Rams. Those two teams have some of the worst rush defense in the league. Yet, we couldn't even get a push against the Lions d-line or we let guys like Victor Adeyanju push through with little resistance. We must address the tackle position especially if we have to play against Suh next season.

Oh, believe me I want to see us draft a quality O with one of the 1st round picks. I just don't believe that a rookie ROT will be the difference between being middle of the road and being the NFC champion. Most ROTs in this league are one of either two things. Either a player who was drafted too high as a LOT, or one that was drafted a little later and grew into a solid ROT.

I do remember a couple of teams that drafted the can't miss LOT of the future and now they are playing OG for teams, e.g. Gallery and Leonard Davis.

For that matter we never drafted Adam Snyder as OT, we drafted him as a OG.

When I see the words "must" or "have to" I alway find them mutually exclusive when it comes to the draft.

For the position that we have a lot of talented playmakers, let be realistic.

We have a RB who is very good and misses about 2 to 3 games a season.
Yup, he makes some long TD runs, but he's not going to out run or juke most
players in a one-on-one contest.

We have a TE that makes world class catches for touchdowns, but misses
other catches that bounce off his hands. Also, he's non-existent as the
hot read on blitzes.

We have Crabtree who can grow into a heck of a possession receiver given more
time with the team, but he's not the deep threat that other teams have.

Now we come to D. Walker, Morgan and maybe throw in J. Hill.

Walker makes a good play or two every game, but he's not a featured
playmaker that other teams have to game plan against.

Morgan, he's done a good job for a 6th round pick but he's been non-existent
in alot of games. J. Hill has great track speed, but it doesn't transition to the
football field. Since we are in the "weak" NFC West I'll use our competition as
a guide. Right now, these guys would have a hard time cracking the Cardinals
lineup as a 4th receiver, ala Jermy Urban.

So where is this wealth of playmakers you were talking about? Oh, and do any of
then return kicks (yea, I know that Morgan was forced in that role, but he's no Breaston).

Why not try a little realism on for size. It might help.

I never said that selecting a ROT in the 1st would catapult us to the playoffs. However, adding a top notch tackle in the draft would assist in that process. Our offense, despite having inconsistencies within the o-line, performed average to above average. We were pretty damn close to winning the west. So if we upgraded the ROT position with a player like Bryan Bulaga, you don't think that would help? Another year of having Snyder start at ROT could really ruin our chances to making the playoffs. I never said that we had a wealth of playmakers. I'm all for drafting an explosive playmaker like Spiller, ONLY if we use the other pick on an OT.

Recent offensive linemen selected in the first round like Ryan Clady, William Beatty, Jake Long, Duane Brown, Michael Oher, a lot of these players are performing very well.

Btw, read my post before putting words in my mouth.

[ Edited by SF69ers on Jan 20, 2010 at 14:31:01 ]

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by SF69ers:
Right Tackle has to be a pick with at least one of our first rounders. Did you watch the last couple of games this past season? We were supposed to run over the Detroit Lions and the St.Louis Rams. Those two teams have some of the worst rush defense in the league. Yet, we couldn't even get a push against the Lions d-line or we let guys like Victor Adeyanju push through with little resistance. We must address the tackle position especially if we have to play against Suh next season.

Oh, believe me I want to see us draft a quality O with one of the 1st round picks. I just don't believe that a rookie ROT will be the difference between being middle of the road and being the NFC champion. Most ROTs in this league are one of either two things. Either a player who was drafted too high as a LOT, or one that was drafted a little later and grew into a solid ROT.

I do remember a couple of teams that drafted the can't miss LOT of the future and now they are playing OG for teams, e.g. Gallery and Leonard Davis.

For that matter we never drafted Adam Snyder as OT, we drafted him as a OG.

When I see the words "must" or "have to" I alway find them mutually exclusive when it comes to the draft.

For the position that we have a lot of talented playmakers, let be realistic.

We have a RB who is very good and misses about 2 to 3 games a season.
Yup, he makes some long TD runs, but he's not going to out run or juke most
players in a one-on-one contest.

We have a TE that makes world class catches for touchdowns, but misses
other catches that bounce off his hands. Also, he's non-existent as the
hot read on blitzes.

We have Crabtree who can grow into a heck of a possession receiver given more
time with the team, but he's not the deep threat that other teams have.

Now we come to D. Walker, Morgan and maybe throw in J. Hill.

Walker makes a good play or two every game, but he's not a featured
playmaker that other teams have to game plan against.

Morgan, he's done a good job for a 6th round pick but he's been non-existent
in alot of games. J. Hill has great track speed, but it doesn't transition to the
football field. Since we are in the "weak" NFC West I'll use our competition as
a guide. Right now, these guys would have a hard time cracking the Cardinals
lineup as a 4th receiver, ala Jermy Urban.

So where is this wealth of playmakers you were talking about? Oh, and do any of
then return kicks (yea, I know that Morgan was forced in that role, but he's no Breaston).

Why not try a little realism on for size. It might help.

I never said that selecting a ROT in the 1st would catapult us to the playoffs. However, adding a top notch tackle in the draft would assist in that process. Our offense, despite having inconsistencies within the o-line, performed average to above average. We were pretty damn close to winning the west. So if we upgraded the ROT position with a player like Bryan Bulaga, you don't think that would help? Another year of having Snyder start at ROT could really ruin our chances to making the playoffs. I never said that we had a wealth of playmakers. I'm all for drafting an explosive playmaker like Spiller, ONLY if we use the other pick on an OT.

Recent offensive linemen selected in the first round like Ryan Clady, William Beatty, Jake Long, Duane Brown, Michael Oher, a lot of these players are performing very well.

Btw, read my post before putting words in my mouth.

Three of those five were drafted and play LOT that I am aware of. One was the 1st pick in the draft. Since we have two picks in the 1st round and one in the 2nd we have the luxury of selecting 3 players that should make an immediate impact. I want us to pick a OT in the 1st, but am pointing up we are not so deep in the skill
positions as people seem to portray here. On offense, our fastest guy is a TE. I think we need some speed to go along with the trenches and preferably a playmaker.

So in a nutshell I do think we need an OT in the first, but don't think we need to pick O-lineman with our first three picks when we have alot of other needs, e.g. offensive speed, DBs, OLB etc.

I would like them to draft a OT but i don't want to see them draft all OL with there first 3 picks, they have many more needs. OL is one of them. they should draft one in ther first round. They need DB help, speed at RB and WR. A punt and kick returner. I don't want them to reach and draft a third down back that can return kick and punt in the first round because that is what they need. but if there is a FS or a DB that has fallen and no OL that are worthy of pick 13 then draft the FS or DB, take the MLB. then pick up a OL later.

[ Edited by dlance on Jan 20, 2010 at 16:28:06 ]

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by SF69ers:
Right Tackle has to be a pick with at least one of our first rounders. Did you watch the last couple of games this past season? We were supposed to run over the Detroit Lions and the St.Louis Rams. Those two teams have some of the worst rush defense in the league. Yet, we couldn't even get a push against the Lions d-line or we let guys like Victor Adeyanju push through with little resistance. We must address the tackle position especially if we have to play against Suh next season.

Oh, believe me I want to see us draft a quality O with one of the 1st round picks. I just don't believe that a rookie ROT will be the difference between being middle of the road and being the NFC champion. Most ROTs in this league are one of either two things. Either a player who was drafted too high as a LOT, or one that was drafted a little later and grew into a solid ROT.

I do remember a couple of teams that drafted the can't miss LOT of the future and now they are playing OG for teams, e.g. Gallery and Leonard Davis.

For that matter we never drafted Adam Snyder as OT, we drafted him as a OG.

When I see the words "must" or "have to" I alway find them mutually exclusive when it comes to the draft.

For the position that we have a lot of talented playmakers, let be realistic.

We have a RB who is very good and misses about 2 to 3 games a season.
Yup, he makes some long TD runs, but he's not going to out run or juke most
players in a one-on-one contest.

We have a TE that makes world class catches for touchdowns, but misses
other catches that bounce off his hands. Also, he's non-existent as the
hot read on blitzes.

We have Crabtree who can grow into a heck of a possession receiver given more
time with the team, but he's not the deep threat that other teams have.

Now we come to D. Walker, Morgan and maybe throw in J. Hill.

Walker makes a good play or two every game, but he's not a featured
playmaker that other teams have to game plan against.

Morgan, he's done a good job for a 6th round pick but he's been non-existent
in alot of games. J. Hill has great track speed, but it doesn't transition to the
football field. Since we are in the "weak" NFC West I'll use our competition as
a guide. Right now, these guys would have a hard time cracking the Cardinals
lineup as a 4th receiver, ala Jermy Urban.

So where is this wealth of playmakers you were talking about? Oh, and do any of
then return kicks (yea, I know that Morgan was forced in that role, but he's no Breaston).

Why not try a little realism on for size. It might help.

I never said that selecting a ROT in the 1st would catapult us to the playoffs. However, adding a top notch tackle in the draft would assist in that process. Our offense, despite having inconsistencies within the o-line, performed average to above average. We were pretty damn close to winning the west. So if we upgraded the ROT position with a player like Bryan Bulaga, you don't think that would help? Another year of having Snyder start at ROT could really ruin our chances to making the playoffs. I never said that we had a wealth of playmakers. I'm all for drafting an explosive playmaker like Spiller, ONLY if we use the other pick on an OT.

Recent offensive linemen selected in the first round like Ryan Clady, William Beatty, Jake Long, Duane Brown, Michael Oher, a lot of these players are performing very well.

Btw, read my post before putting words in my mouth.

Three of those five were drafted and play LOT that I am aware of. One was the 1st pick in the draft. Since we have two picks in the 1st round and one in the 2nd we have the luxury of selecting 3 players that should make an immediate impact. I want us to pick a OT in the 1st, but am pointing up we are not so deep in the skill
positions as people seem to portray here. On offense, our fastest guy is a TE. I think we need some speed to go along with the trenches and preferably a playmaker.

So in a nutshell I do think we need an OT in the first, but don't think we need to pick O-lineman with our first three picks when we have alot of other needs, e.g. offensive speed, DBs, OLB etc.

We got some pretty quick football players on the team when they have the ball in their hands. Crabtree is quick and so is Morgan after his first step, Walker can break tackles pretty well, and Gore can still run people over. I do agree with you that our first three picks can really make an impact on the team but I also think there are plenty of talent in the 3rd round to also make an impact. We all know about Spiller but in the 2nd-3rd, there are players like Mardy Gilyard, Dexter McCluster, Eric Decker, Jordan Shipley, Joe McKnight, and Danario Alexander.

We can very much have a first round that looks like this:
CJ Spiller, Mike Iupati/Bryan Bulaga, Javier Arenas, and Mardy Gilyard/Dexter McCluster.

Originally posted by dlance:
I would like them to draft a OT but i don't want to see them draft OL with there first 3 picks, they have many more needs. OL is one of them. They need DB help, speed at RB and WR. A punt and kick returner. I don't want them to reach and draft a third down back that can return kick and punt in the first round because that is what they need. but if there is a FS or a DB that has fallen and no OL that are worthy of pick 13 then draft the FS or DB, take the MLB. then pick up a OL later.

I disagree completely that we have more needs than OL. Our RT position was shot this whole season. Our guards remained inconsistent until the last few weeks of the season. Our best player, couldn't even find a hole to get through the majority of the time. We couldn't even control the line of scrimmage against Detroit and St. Louis. We don't need to select a receiver until later in the draft or even a ILB. We can draft a kick returner but he doesn't have to be a running back. Javier Arenas, a corner, can provide that in the 2nd round. But to say no OL with our first three picks is absolutely ridiculous.

Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on present talent. Morgan is not that quick, and Crabtree may be quick off the line, but he's more of a posession receiver. Walker is one-dimensional, and I don't see what others see in him.

To me our offense looks like they are running in concrete shoes alot compared to
other teams. Is that a function of routes or route running, I don't know. However,
back in the 80s and 90s I think we just had more team speed than other teams. We don't have that anymore.

Two things that come to mind, one on offense and one on defense. John Taylor's elusiveness and speed. Ronnie Lott breaking up the pass in the NFC Title Game to
Flipper Anderson when Ronnie came from out of no where to break up that pass.

Maybe it's player smarts, route running or something else, but we seem to be a very slow team. Look at this way, our fastest players on offense and defense appear to be a TE and an ILB (on field speed). Most teams that would be WR/RG and/or CB.

you say the o-line improved? wow what games where you watching? detroit & st. louis got in our qb's face way too much.

Originally posted by dlance:
I would like them to draft a OT but i don't want to see them draft OL with there first 3 picks, they have many more needs. OL is one of them. They need DB help, speed at RB and WR. A punt and kick returner. I don't want them to reach and draft a third down back that can return kick and punt in the first round because that is what they need. but if there is a FS or a DB that has fallen and no OL that are worthy of pick 13 then draft the FS or DB, take the MLB. then pick up a OL later.

So let me get this straight. You want to draft an OT, but not until the 3rd round or later, seeing as how there are greater needs.

I hope you realize that by waiting until the 3rd round (or later) to draft an OT, we are doomed to have Snyder (and his 9 sacks allowed) starting again next season..

If we want to upgrade OL by drafting a good OT, not a bench warmer, we better do it in the first round, because that is where all good OTs will be drafted.

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on present talent. Morgan is not that quick, and Crabtree may be quick off the line, but he's more of a posession receiver. Walker is one-dimensional, and I don't see what others see in him.

Walker adds some nice mismatches for us. If he's in there does he get covered with a LB or a safety? And who are you then going to put on VD? Morgan could develop into a good #2. Keep in mind that this is only his 2nd year in the league and he was a very late round draft choice (6th I think). He's far outperformed expectations. I agree about Crabtree. He doesn't have great speed--what he does have are great hands and very crisp routes.

Quote:

To me our offense looks like they are running in concrete shoes alot compared to
other teams. Is that a function of routes or route running, I don't know.

Part of it is route running. Raye likes to run routes that take time to develop--this is one of the reasons we need to upgrade our line. Part of it is a speed issue. When the fastest guy on your offense is a TE that says a bunch. I wouldn't mind drafting a couple WRs in the later rounds (even one as early as the 2nd), but if I were doing the draft I'd get two starting linemen in the first.

Originally posted by smileyman:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on present talent. Morgan is not that quick, and Crabtree may be quick off the line, but he's more of a posession receiver. Walker is one-dimensional, and I don't see what others see in him.

Walker adds some nice mismatches for us. If he's in there does he get covered with a LB or a safety? And who are you then going to put on VD? Morgan could develop into a good #2. Keep in mind that this is only his 2nd year in the league and he was a very late round draft choice (6th I think). He's far outperformed expectations. I agree about Crabtree. He doesn't have great speed--what he does have are great hands and very crisp routes.

Quote:

To me our offense looks like they are running in concrete shoes alot compared to
other teams. Is that a function of routes or route running, I don't know.

Part of it is route running. Raye likes to run routes that take time to develop--this is one of the reasons we need to upgrade our line. Part of it is a speed issue. When the fastest guy on your offense is a TE that says a bunch. I wouldn't mind drafting a couple WRs in the later rounds (even one as early as the 2nd), but if I were doing the draft I'd get two starting linemen in the first.

Hey smiley...I agree with you for once

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on present talent. Morgan is not that quick, and Crabtree may be quick off the line, but he's more of a posession receiver. Walker is one-dimensional, and I don't see what others see in him.

To me our offense looks like they are running in concrete shoes alot compared to
other teams. Is that a function of routes or route running, I don't know. However,
back in the 80s and 90s I think we just had more team speed than other teams. We don't have that anymore.

Two things that come to mind, one on offense and one on defense. John Taylor's elusiveness and speed. Ronnie Lott breaking up the pass in the NFC Title Game to
Flipper Anderson when Ronnie came from out of no where to break up that pass.

Maybe it's player smarts, route running or something else, but we seem to be a very slow team. Look at this way, our fastest players on offense and defense appear to be a TE and an ILB (on field speed). Most teams that would be WR/RG and/or CB.

It really isn't all about speed especially if our QB gets hit before the the receiver completes his route. I remember the Superbowl winning Patriots didn't have too much speed at the receiver position either, but they had an o-line the protected Tom Brady. Funny now that they have speed in Welker and Moss but an inconsistent o-line, they're not as unstoppable as before.

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by smileyman:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on present talent. Morgan is not that quick, and Crabtree may be quick off the line, but he's more of a posession receiver. Walker is one-dimensional, and I don't see what others see in him.

Walker adds some nice mismatches for us. If he's in there does he get covered with a LB or a safety? And who are you then going to put on VD? Morgan could develop into a good #2. Keep in mind that this is only his 2nd year in the league and he was a very late round draft choice (6th I think). He's far outperformed expectations. I agree about Crabtree. He doesn't have great speed--what he does have are great hands and very crisp routes.

Quote:

To me our offense looks like they are running in concrete shoes alot compared to
other teams. Is that a function of routes or route running, I don't know.

Part of it is route running. Raye likes to run routes that take time to develop--this is one of the reasons we need to upgrade our line. Part of it is a speed issue. When the fastest guy on your offense is a TE that says a bunch. I wouldn't mind drafting a couple WRs in the later rounds (even one as early as the 2nd), but if I were doing the draft I'd get two starting linemen in the first.

Hey smiley...I agree with you for once

Stop the presses!


I bet we agree more than we disagree--it's just that the disagreements are pretty far apart.

Originally posted by smileyman:

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by smileyman:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
Well I guess we'll just have to disagree on present talent. Morgan is not that quick, and Crabtree may be quick off the line, but he's more of a posession receiver. Walker is one-dimensional, and I don't see what others see in him.

Walker adds some nice mismatches for us. If he's in there does he get covered with a LB or a safety? And who are you then going to put on VD? Morgan could develop into a good #2. Keep in mind that this is only his 2nd year in the league and he was a very late round draft choice (6th I think). He's far outperformed expectations. I agree about Crabtree. He doesn't have great speed--what he does have are great hands and very crisp routes.

Quote:

To me our offense looks like they are running in concrete shoes alot compared to
other teams. Is that a function of routes or route running, I don't know.

Part of it is route running. Raye likes to run routes that take time to develop--this is one of the reasons we need to upgrade our line. Part of it is a speed issue. When the fastest guy on your offense is a TE that says a bunch. I wouldn't mind drafting a couple WRs in the later rounds (even one as early as the 2nd), but if I were doing the draft I'd get two starting linemen in the first.

Hey smiley...I agree with you for once

Stop the presses!


I bet we agree more than we disagree--it's just that the disagreements are pretty far apart.

Agreed! It's fun debating with you.

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by dlance:
I would like them to draft a OT but i don't want to see them draft OL with there first 3 picks, they have many more needs. OL is one of them. They need DB help, speed at RB and WR. A punt and kick returner. I don't want them to reach and draft a third down back that can return kick and punt in the first round because that is what they need. but if there is a FS or a DB that has fallen and no OL that are worthy of pick 13 then draft the FS or DB, take the MLB. then pick up a OL later.

So let me get this straight. You want to draft an OT, but not until the 3rd round or later, seeing as how there are greater needs.

I hope you realize that by waiting until the 3rd round (or later) to draft an OT, we are doomed to have Snyder (and his 9 sacks allowed) starting again next season..

If we want to upgrade OL by drafting a good OT, not a bench warmer, we better do it in the first round, because that is where all good OTs will be drafted.

No What Im saying is I don't want them to us pick 13, pick 16/17 and the second round pick All on OL. I would love it if they picked a OT at 13 or 16/17. but I don't want them to draft I OT, OG , and a Center with there first 3 picks.

[ Edited by dlance on Jan 20, 2010 at 16:28:51 ]

Originally posted by SF69ers:

Originally posted by dlance:
I would like them to draft a OT but i don't want to see them draft OL with there first 3 picks, they have many more needs. OL is one of them. They need DB help, speed at RB and WR. A punt and kick returner. I don't want them to reach and draft a third down back that can return kick and punt in the first round because that is what they need. but if there is a FS or a DB that has fallen and no OL that are worthy of pick 13 then draft the FS or DB, take the MLB. then pick up a OL later.

I disagree completely that we have more needs than OL. Our RT position was shot this whole season. Our guards remained inconsistent until the last few weeks of the season. Our best player, couldn't even find a hole to get through the majority of the time. We couldn't even control the line of scrimmage against Detroit and St. Louis. We don't need to select a receiver until later in the draft or even a ILB. We can draft a kick returner but he doesn't have to be a running back. Javier Arenas, a corner, can provide that in the 2nd round. But to say no OL with our first three picks is absolutely ridiculous.

I didn't mean Not To draft A OL I sould have put not with All of there first three pick. I hope they do draft a OT at 13 or 1617. but not OL with both there 1 and there 2 round picks. they could use some DB help and other area as well.