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Why not draft a RB in the First Round???

  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,917
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by tap11:
Originally posted by kronik:
Why can't we use a 6th round pick on Trindin Holliday to solve the kick return issues? Why do we have to use a 1st? It's not like OL is our only hole. We also need some speed in our secondary and if you look at the NFL as a whole, great CB's are takened VERY EARLY in the drafts. It's very rare for a good CB to be selected in later rounds. You can get away with it if you run a tampa 2 style defense where your CB's don't need to have great speed but even those teams use high picks for their CB's (Aquib Tailb).

Amen brother. I really wish the lunacy of the "draft Spiller" mantra would disappear. I would love to get Holliday with a late pick, but drafting a rb in the first is poor value, and unrealistic (the brass doesn't seem interested, thank God).

That's what plenty of Titans fans thought when they drafted Chris Johnson, or when the Cowboys selected Felix Jones even though they already had a proven RB (Barber). You're right, you can typically get good RB value later in the draft....but you can't always get a RB that runs a 4.30, that also has the ability to catch passes out of the backfield, play in the slot and return kicks/punts. In other words, there's a reason why Spiller grades out as a 1st round back. He can do a lot of things that most backs can't, plus he's a high character guy.

Now, if all you care about is the 2010 needs, then sure...just blindly draft accordingly. But you don't know what will happen once the season starts...what if Frank gets hurt and you're stuck with Coffee to carry the load, or what if Spiller and Gore form a tandem that leads the league in rushing (which allows Alex to throw less), or what if Spiller becomes the next special teams star of the NFL????

I'm not saying we absolutely have to draft Spiller...I'm just saying, whoever does will not regret it (unlike the other 23 teams that passed on Chris Johnson). There are typically only a handful of playmakers like Spiller in every draft, and teams are learning the hard way that you'd better take them when you have the chance.

So IMO, there's nothing wrong with taking a RT and Spiller with our two 1st rounders. Both picks would have an impact far beyond just the 2010 season.

When Chris Johnson was drafted. I remember reading a quote saying the Titans planned on using him as a WR. Which was what they needed at the time. IUt just so hapens he was a beter runner then they gave him credit for.

Marion Barber had all of 3 starts prior to them drafting Jones. Granted he showed he could run but didn't show they he could be the workhorse as he was splitting time with J. Jones. With no interest in bringing back J. Jones. But even still their offense was a two back offense unlike ours.


Originally posted by teeohh:

look at Stewart and Williams in Carolina, both rushed for over 1000 yards this season both were 1st round picks


Same thing with the Stewart selection. Carolina already ran a two back offense with DeShaun and DeAngelo. With no interest in bringing back DeShaun.



If we were a running team and the RB's was the reason we aren't successful running the ball then I could understand the want of Spiller. But unlike the players/team mentioned in these 2 posts that's not what our offense is. Nor are we a perennial playoff team.


The best comparison would be Vikes with Chester Taylor drafting AD, Saints drafting Bush with Duece and Jags drafting MJD with Fred Taylor. These 3 teams were 1 back teams that had a RB and drafted one anyway.


But Spiller is no AD or Bush. Plus Frank Gore isn't as close to the end as Duece or Fred Taylor.

But even you know that the best running teams in the NFL now have two featured backs...I'm not saying Coffee can't be that guy, but I personally have my doubts that he makes people worry like Frank does. I honestly believe that if we drafted a speed back to compliment Gore, not only would it help to keep Frankie fresher, but it would move us closer to becoming what Singletary wants the offense to be.

Listen, I understand why people are afraid to take a chance on a guy like Spiller...there's only one Chris Johnson, what if he turns into Reggie Bush, we have bigger needs, etc., etc., etc. I really do get that. I just think that one of the biggest problems we have is a lack of speed to threaten the edge.

Frank does a great job of running between the tackles and breaking off the long one on occasion, but neither he or Coffee have the ability to take a pitch and quickly get to the edge and beyond. That's just not their games. Because of that, teams can stack the middle (as they do) and force us to play smash mouth.

With a back like Spiller or Best, we can open up so many more things...not just in the run game but in the passing game as well.

I also understand what you're saying. I also agree we need speed in the backfield. I however disagree about the whole opening other things up bit. If said RB was going to be the main back I would agree. Cause he would be on the field nearly all game. But a part time back lucky to get 10 carries isn't going to change a defense. Except maybe perhaps when he's on the field. Which the defense can easily adjust for.

I know Sing wants us to be this running team but we aren't that yet. Could Spiller help us be that. Sure! But everything you said he would help out in the passing game would be negated by Smith's inability to operate out of said system.

If Smith's going to be our QB then it should be an easy no on Spiller. It just doesn't match what we do. If we suddenly become a successful running team and get a QB who can operate in a 2 back set then I see no problem with drafting a RB this early.

As it stands now! Doesn't fit what we are.

I'm sorry, but if was the coaching staff, I wouldn't plan anything (especially who I drafted) long-term around Alex Smith and his skill-set. That would be insane. If I had a chance to get a speed back like Spiller (or even Best), I would find a way to work that guy in along with Frank to make my team more effective. Sure, I'd tweak some things to take advantage of what Smith does well, but hell no would I draft (and pass up talent) with his limited skills in mind.

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

I see what you're saying and as a fan I see where you're coming from. I actually should even agree with you. Which I do to a point. But in a what have you done for me lately league. You have to do what's best for your team NOW! As you (and other pieces) may not be here in the future.

While I agree you don't have to draft for need. I also think you can't draft in hopes you can be what you aren't.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,917
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GORO:
I watched highlights on Spiller on youtube, and he reminds me of Reggie Bush. With that said this could be good to help make this conservative offense more productive. The question is whether Gore would be willing to share the load.

Seeing how we're not a running team. In fact 3rd least in the league. So by sharing the load you mean what 12 carries for Gore and 8 for Spiller. 14/6


Yea that seems worth it.

Yup. I wonder how high people would have been on Spiller before Johnson's monster year and he was being compared more to Bush.

I honestly don't think alot of this have to do with CJ. People have been saying this for a few years now. Hell was even excited about Kory Sheets. They just want speed. Which I don't fault. I just think don't think FWP2 is the way to go.
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by TX9R:
I'll also add about the Titans comparison. When they drafted Chris Johnson they already had a top5 defense, a top5 Oline and what they beleived was a franchise QB. All they needed was a playmaker, they were roasted for not taking a WR, but they knew there wasn't a quality one available at their pick, so they took he best playmaker on their board. Now compare that to our situation and tell how it's at all similar.

Hmmm, you don't think we can use a playmaker on offense, especially with blazing speed out of the backfield??? If you don't think we need that, we must be watching two different teams, because with the exception of Vernon, this whole offense is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Sure, anyopne could use some speed. But it's pretty useless when you can't block and your defense can't get off the field on 3rd down, also you're QB is a question mark. My main point is that the Tennesee comparison is not a valid one.
As far as playmakers we have a pro bowl RB, a pro bowl TE, and what appears to be a future pro bowl WR. Our needs are what they've been for a decade, Oline and pass rusher and we have a chance to finally address both in one of the most proising draft classes in years and 2 top 16 picks to do so. This offense may be lacking in speed, but show me the player on the Colts who has just blazing speed. Now look at the flip where the Raiders have speed to burn all over, but can't block or rush the passer. A team with great blocking and pass rush doesn't need Al Davis speed to win. The Pats won 3 SB with less speed than we have.

I agree that we need a new QB, but that's not going to happen anytime soon (at least not this off-season, unfortunately). Joseph Addai ran a 4.37 at the combine (faster than any RB we have), Anthony Gonzalez ran a 4.40 and Pierre Garcon ran a 4.48 (10th best at his combine for Wrs). The Colts have plenty of speed...but more importantly, they have Peyton Manning. We don't, so we need to generate offensive production in different ways.

I'm all for using one of the 1st rounders on a RT...we agree on this. I disagree though that pass rush is high on the list of needs. You might think ranking 3rd in the NFL in sacks isn't a big deal, but I think it shows how far this team has come along in that area, and we're likely to get even better as Brooks/Haralson/Lawson continue to mature. We can use a 3rd-5th rounder for OLB depth, but I'm not convinced that it's absolutely imperative that we draft an OLB early.

The Raiders draft speed without much consideration for the actuall football skills. I'm not talking about that. Spiller is a football player, and playmaker and not simply some fast dude.

As for the Pats, again, they have Tom Brady (who, btw, has only one 1st rounder protecting him....Logan Mankins) and we don't. Until we get our Peyton Manning (who has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him) or Tom Brady, or Drew Brees (who currently has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him), or Phillip Rivers (who has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him) or Kurt Warner (who only has one 1st rounder protecting him), we'll have to figure out other ways to move the ball and score points.
[ Edited by GoFD74 on Jan 5, 2010 at 2:49 PM ]
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GORO:
I watched highlights on Spiller on youtube, and he reminds me of Reggie Bush. With that said this could be good to help make this conservative offense more productive. The question is whether Gore would be willing to share the load.

Seeing how we're not a running team. In fact 3rd least in the league. So by sharing the load you mean what 12 carries for Gore and 8 for Spiller. 14/6


Yea that seems worth it.

Yup. I wonder how high people would have been on Spiller before Johnson's monster year and he was being compared more to Bush.

Actually, I don't compare Spiller to either Johnson or Bush. I'd compare him more
to Harvin as both a WR or RB. Completely different than the others, but with KR/PR capability.

Last time I checked Johnson didn't return punts or kicks. Also, since our receivers
have cement shoes adding a little speed would hurt. For those of you who mention McCluskey, maybe but he reminds me of Dexter Carter.

Finally for you kids, I remember a rookie running back in the 60s that was kind of special like Johnson. If he played today, given conditioning and medical advances he would have been around longer. His name, Gayle Sayers, the Kansas Comet.
If you don't believe he was special, you might want to check newspaper reports from that time, or look at stats from 49er and Viking games when they played.

Sorry kids, there have been special running backs around for a long time.
I like Spiller a lot. He's a game breaker. And other than VD on our offense can you think of many guys who can take it the distance on any given play? A speed back and a 3rd down back to catch the ball out of the backfield would be great. Plus a kick / punt retuner would be great.

It's a copy cat league. People will see the success of Chris Johnson. If Spiller runs well he will go top 10 IMO. He may easily go before our #13 pick.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GORO:
I watched highlights on Spiller on youtube, and he reminds me of Reggie Bush. With that said this could be good to help make this conservative offense more productive. The question is whether Gore would be willing to share the load.

Seeing how we're not a running team. In fact 3rd least in the league. So by sharing the load you mean what 12 carries for Gore and 8 for Spiller. 14/6


Yea that seems worth it.

Something tells me that if we actually became more successful at running the ball (like, not just 1 yard up the gut and a cloud of dust 70% of the time), we might do it more often. Just a hunch based on what Singletary has been saying since day one.

So for me, it's a combination of addressing the o-line AND getting a back with home-run ability. Not just either/or.
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by tap11:
Originally posted by kronik:
Why can't we use a 6th round pick on Trindin Holliday to solve the kick return issues? Why do we have to use a 1st? It's not like OL is our only hole. We also need some speed in our secondary and if you look at the NFL as a whole, great CB's are takened VERY EARLY in the drafts. It's very rare for a good CB to be selected in later rounds. You can get away with it if you run a tampa 2 style defense where your CB's don't need to have great speed but even those teams use high picks for their CB's (Aquib Tailb).

Amen brother. I really wish the lunacy of the "draft Spiller" mantra would disappear. I would love to get Holliday with a late pick, but drafting a rb in the first is poor value, and unrealistic (the brass doesn't seem interested, thank God).

That's what plenty of Titans fans thought when they drafted Chris Johnson, or when the Cowboys selected Felix Jones even though they already had a proven RB (Barber). You're right, you can typically get good RB value later in the draft....but you can't always get a RB that runs a 4.30, that also has the ability to catch passes out of the backfield, play in the slot and return kicks/punts. In other words, there's a reason why Spiller grades out as a 1st round back. He can do a lot of things that most backs can't, plus he's a high character guy.

Now, if all you care about is the 2010 needs, then sure...just blindly draft accordingly. But you don't know what will happen once the season starts...what if Frank gets hurt and you're stuck with Coffee to carry the load, or what if Spiller and Gore form a tandem that leads the league in rushing (which allows Alex to throw less), or what if Spiller becomes the next special teams star of the NFL????

I'm not saying we absolutely have to draft Spiller...I'm just saying, whoever does will not regret it (unlike the other 23 teams that passed on Chris Johnson). There are typically only a handful of playmakers like Spiller in every draft, and teams are learning the hard way that you'd better take them when you have the chance.

So IMO, there's nothing wrong with taking a RT and Spiller with our two 1st rounders. Both picks would have an impact far beyond just the 2010 season.

I think the pick that had the Titans fans scratching their head was the pick of Chris Henry with the 2nd round the previous year. He was in no way a 2nd round pick and has proven to be a terrible pick. As for CJ, I doubt many Titans fans didn't like that pick. At that time, the Titans didn't have as many glaring holes as we do now. They could afford to take BPA. They've been to the playoffs many times recently and could afford to use a late 1st rounder on a playmaker. Can we afford to use the 13th or 16/17th pick overall? PS: We haven't been to the playoffs in a while.


Here are my thoughts of drafting Spiller:

First, Let's see if Spiller runs a 4.3 as you say. Not at a school workout or anything, but at the same track as others - The combine.

Second, you already label Coffee a bust after 1 year (a handful of carries)? As if he can't improve. He's already done? I don't know the answer to this, and neither does anyone else.

Third, I don't mind drafting Spiller. But if we do, I would want to trade Gore for a 2nd or 3rd while he still has good value.

Fourth, we also have problems with our secondary, particularly keeping up with fast WR's. You tell me how many fast pro bowl caliber secondary players are drafted after the 1st round.

Fifth, If we keep Gore, I'd like to target Jahvid Best in the 2nd if possible. If he's gone, then Holliday in the 6th round.

I would argue that we really don't have as many needs as you think. Obviously our biggest need is at RT, but I can see a scenario where we use one of the 1st rounders to address that, then take Spiller with the other one. I don't think you need to trade Gore away just yet...having two strong backs isn't new in the NFL.

I never said Coffee was a bust. You just made that up. He has a different skill-set than Spiller (they're actually complimentary in many ways), but I wouldn't be confident in just having Coffee carry the load (which is actually what I said...not that he was a bust) if Gore went down. I would prefer a 3-back situation, with an eye towards the future.

There aren't many fast CBs in this draft. There's Joe Haden who will likely be gone by the time we pick, Patrick Robinson who is considered a late 1st rounder, but who only has 1 pick in the last two years, and then there's Kyle Wilson who's considered a 2nd rounder. Are you saying you want to use that second 1st rounder on Patrick Robinson?

I don't mind targeting Best if he's still in the 2nd...I already said that we don't absolutely have to draft Spiller. I'm just making the case (not just for this year, but for the future) for why it's silly for us to just think of our needs based on he 2010 season. We should be thinking about both (next year AND the future).

I agree that we can use a speed guy both on offense and defense. I'm just not so sure we HAVE to use a 1st round pick for it. I see a lot of speed in this year's draft. You listed a bunch of speed freaks in another thread u posted. Those guys can be had in later rounds. Players like Knox, Cribbs, Garcon have been selected in later rounds.

To be honest, my favorite player in the draft is Iupati. U can see why I rather pass on Spiller. Obviously, we need to use 1 of the picks on an RT. I want to use the other one for Iupati. I honestly think Iupati will be as good or great as Larry Allen. Did you see how he swatted Mauluga like a bug when he tried to blitz up the middle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWdvfRhTruw
  • TX9R
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,018
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by TX9R:
I'll also add about the Titans comparison. When they drafted Chris Johnson they already had a top5 defense, a top5 Oline and what they beleived was a franchise QB. All they needed was a playmaker, they were roasted for not taking a WR, but they knew there wasn't a quality one available at their pick, so they took he best playmaker on their board. Now compare that to our situation and tell how it's at all similar.

Hmmm, you don't think we can use a playmaker on offense, especially with blazing speed out of the backfield??? If you don't think we need that, we must be watching two different teams, because with the exception of Vernon, this whole offense is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Sure, anyopne could use some speed. But it's pretty useless when you can't block and your defense can't get off the field on 3rd down, also you're QB is a question mark. My main point is that the Tennesee comparison is not a valid one.
As far as playmakers we have a pro bowl RB, a pro bowl TE, and what appears to be a future pro bowl WR. Our needs are what they've been for a decade, Oline and pass rusher and we have a chance to finally address both in one of the most proising draft classes in years and 2 top 16 picks to do so. This offense may be lacking in speed, but show me the player on the Colts who has just blazing speed. Now look at the flip where the Raiders have speed to burn all over, but can't block or rush the passer. A team with great blocking and pass rush doesn't need Al Davis speed to win. The Pats won 3 SB with less speed than we have.

I agree that we need a new QB, but that's not going to happen anytime soon (at least not this off-season, unfortunately). Joseph Addai ran a 4.37 at the combine (faster than any RB we have), Anthony Gonzalez ran a 4.40 and Pierre Garcon ran a 4.48 (10th best at his combine for Wrs). The Colts have plenty of speed...but more importantly, they have Peyton Manning. We don't, so we need to generate offensive production in different ways.

I'm all for using one of the 1st rounders on a RT...we agree on this. I disagree though that pass rush is high on the list of needs. You might think ranking 3rd in the NFL in sacks isn't a big deal, but I think it shows how far this team has come along in that area, and we're likely to get even better as Brooks/Haralson/Lawson continue to mature. We can use a 3rd-5th rounder for OLB depth, but I'm not convinced that it's absolutely imperative that we draft an OLB early.

The Raiders draft speed without much consideration for the actuall football skills. I'm not talking about that. Spiller is a football player, and playmaker and not simply some fast dude.

As for the Pats, again, they have Tom Brady (who, btw, has only one 1st rounder protecting him....Logan Mankins) and we don't. Until we get our Peyton Manning (who has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him) or Tom Brady, or Drew Brees (who currently has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him), or Phillip Rivers (who has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him) or Kurt Warner (who only has one 1st rounder protecting him), we'll have to figure out other ways to move the ball and score points.

I agree with your points, but as far as the guys protecting those QBs, they also have creative, innovative guys calling the plays for them, along with great QBs. We just don't, and haven't in years. I guess I just have my doubts that we could actually use all this needed speed correctly. Whereas a dominant Oline doesn't need to be all that creative. Look at the Jets, crappy QB, decent, but not great backs, inconsistent WR, but great line and creative defense. They're in the playoffs. Now they could add one guy and really turn a corner because they have the foundation. I just don't think we do. We've tried to address the Oline in later rounds and lo and behold the only really good lineman we have came in the first. We need guys who are as close to sure things up front as we can get and the first is the best place to do that. What if we do have a great playmaker at RB, and by the time the line catches up he isn't what he was (Frank Gore?) We went that route.
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by tap11:
Originally posted by kronik:
Why can't we use a 6th round pick on Trindin Holliday to solve the kick return issues? Why do we have to use a 1st? It's not like OL is our only hole. We also need some speed in our secondary and if you look at the NFL as a whole, great CB's are takened VERY EARLY in the drafts. It's very rare for a good CB to be selected in later rounds. You can get away with it if you run a tampa 2 style defense where your CB's don't need to have great speed but even those teams use high picks for their CB's (Aquib Tailb).

Amen brother. I really wish the lunacy of the "draft Spiller" mantra would disappear. I would love to get Holliday with a late pick, but drafting a rb in the first is poor value, and unrealistic (the brass doesn't seem interested, thank God).

That's what plenty of Titans fans thought when they drafted Chris Johnson, or when the Cowboys selected Felix Jones even though they already had a proven RB (Barber). You're right, you can typically get good RB value later in the draft....but you can't always get a RB that runs a 4.30, that also has the ability to catch passes out of the backfield, play in the slot and return kicks/punts. In other words, there's a reason why Spiller grades out as a 1st round back. He can do a lot of things that most backs can't, plus he's a high character guy.

Now, if all you care about is the 2010 needs, then sure...just blindly draft accordingly. But you don't know what will happen once the season starts...what if Frank gets hurt and you're stuck with Coffee to carry the load, or what if Spiller and Gore form a tandem that leads the league in rushing (which allows Alex to throw less), or what if Spiller becomes the next special teams star of the NFL????

I'm not saying we absolutely have to draft Spiller...I'm just saying, whoever does will not regret it (unlike the other 23 teams that passed on Chris Johnson). There are typically only a handful of playmakers like Spiller in every draft, and teams are learning the hard way that you'd better take them when you have the chance.

So IMO, there's nothing wrong with taking a RT and Spiller with our two 1st rounders. Both picks would have an impact far beyond just the 2010 season.

I think the pick that had the Titans fans scratching their head was the pick of Chris Henry with the 2nd round the previous year. He was in no way a 2nd round pick and has proven to be a terrible pick. As for CJ, I doubt many Titans fans didn't like that pick. At that time, the Titans didn't have as many glaring holes as we do now. They could afford to take BPA. They've been to the playoffs many times recently and could afford to use a late 1st rounder on a playmaker. Can we afford to use the 13th or 16/17th pick overall? PS: We haven't been to the playoffs in a while.


Here are my thoughts of drafting Spiller:

First, Let's see if Spiller runs a 4.3 as you say. Not at a school workout or anything, but at the same track as others - The combine.

Second, you already label Coffee a bust after 1 year (a handful of carries)? As if he can't improve. He's already done? I don't know the answer to this, and neither does anyone else.

Third, I don't mind drafting Spiller. But if we do, I would want to trade Gore for a 2nd or 3rd while he still has good value.

Fourth, we also have problems with our secondary, particularly keeping up with fast WR's. You tell me how many fast pro bowl caliber secondary players are drafted after the 1st round.

Fifth, If we keep Gore, I'd like to target Jahvid Best in the 2nd if possible. If he's gone, then Holliday in the 6th round.

I would argue that we really don't have as many needs as you think. Obviously our biggest need is at RT, but I can see a scenario where we use one of the 1st rounders to address that, then take Spiller with the other one. I don't think you need to trade Gore away just yet...having two strong backs isn't new in the NFL.

I never said Coffee was a bust. You just made that up. He has a different skill-set than Spiller (they're actually complimentary in many ways), but I wouldn't be confident in just having Coffee carry the load (which is actually what I said...not that he was a bust) if Gore went down. I would prefer a 3-back situation, with an eye towards the future.

There aren't many fast CBs in this draft. There's Joe Haden who will likely be gone by the time we pick, Patrick Robinson who is considered a late 1st rounder, but who only has 1 pick in the last two years, and then there's Kyle Wilson who's considered a 2nd rounder. Are you saying you want to use that second 1st rounder on Patrick Robinson?

I don't mind targeting Best if he's still in the 2nd...I already said that we don't absolutely have to draft Spiller. I'm just making the case (not just for this year, but for the future) for why it's silly for us to just think of our needs based on he 2010 season. We should be thinking about both (next year AND the future).

I agree that we can use a speed guy both on offense and defense. I'm just not so sure we HAVE to use a 1st round pick for it. I see a lot of speed in this year's draft. You listed a bunch of speed freaks in another thread u posted. Those guys can be had in later rounds. Players like Knox, Cribbs, Garcon have been selected in later rounds.

To be honest, my favorite player in the draft is Iupati. U can see why I rather pass on Spiller. Obviously, we need to use 1 of the picks on an RT. I want to use the other one for Iupati. I honestly think Iupati will be as good or great as Larry Allen. Did you see how he swatted Mauluga like a bug when he tried to blitz up the middle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWdvfRhTruw

Dude, I'd be totally fine if we used our two 1st rounders on Iupati and the best RT available...so long as we grabbed someone like Best in the 2nd. I just think we have to address both of those needs and not just the o-line. I know people want to focus almost exclusively on the line as the biggest culprit, but there's more going on than just bad line play.
I couldn't agree with you more. Frank Gore is never going to be a home run threat, unless he is given a 7 yard break. I admire what he can do and want to see him around. But he's not a game breaker, and I'm not comparing him to Johnson. Maybe Stewart or Williams from TB, but those guys are faster.

Now if you had a ROT that you could rely on and an OL coach that could teach proper blocking schemes, and you coupled that with Frank, VD, and a slot WR/RB that has game breaking ability you have something more tangible.

I like Crabtree immensely, don't get me wrong. But if that is the core of your WR talent, he's gonna be double and triple teamed. Now if you throw a slot receiver/RB, and pure RB that can slip out on screens and a TE that needs to be focused on, you better your offense.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,917
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GORO:
I watched highlights on Spiller on youtube, and he reminds me of Reggie Bush. With that said this could be good to help make this conservative offense more productive. The question is whether Gore would be willing to share the load.

Seeing how we're not a running team. In fact 3rd least in the league. So by sharing the load you mean what 12 carries for Gore and 8 for Spiller. 14/6


Yea that seems worth it.

Something tells me that if we actually became more successful at running the ball (like, not just 1 yard up the gut and a cloud of dust 70% of the time), we might do it more often. Just a hunch based on what Singletary has been saying since day one.

So for me, it's a combination of addressing the o-line AND getting a back with home-run ability. Not just either/or.

You are probably right. But again, the RB's wasn't the reason we couldn't run 70% of the time. Even Coffee said Raye didn't allow him to cutback or go outside. Or something to that effect. So why would that change for Spiller.

So again, we would be drafting Spiller in hopes to become something we aren't.
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by tap11:
Originally posted by kronik:
Why can't we use a 6th round pick on Trindin Holliday to solve the kick return issues? Why do we have to use a 1st? It's not like OL is our only hole. We also need some speed in our secondary and if you look at the NFL as a whole, great CB's are takened VERY EARLY in the drafts. It's very rare for a good CB to be selected in later rounds. You can get away with it if you run a tampa 2 style defense where your CB's don't need to have great speed but even those teams use high picks for their CB's (Aquib Tailb).

Amen brother. I really wish the lunacy of the "draft Spiller" mantra would disappear. I would love to get Holliday with a late pick, but drafting a rb in the first is poor value, and unrealistic (the brass doesn't seem interested, thank God).

That's what plenty of Titans fans thought when they drafted Chris Johnson, or when the Cowboys selected Felix Jones even though they already had a proven RB (Barber). You're right, you can typically get good RB value later in the draft....but you can't always get a RB that runs a 4.30, that also has the ability to catch passes out of the backfield, play in the slot and return kicks/punts. In other words, there's a reason why Spiller grades out as a 1st round back. He can do a lot of things that most backs can't, plus he's a high character guy.

Now, if all you care about is the 2010 needs, then sure...just blindly draft accordingly. But you don't know what will happen once the season starts...what if Frank gets hurt and you're stuck with Coffee to carry the load, or what if Spiller and Gore form a tandem that leads the league in rushing (which allows Alex to throw less), or what if Spiller becomes the next special teams star of the NFL????

I'm not saying we absolutely have to draft Spiller...I'm just saying, whoever does will not regret it (unlike the other 23 teams that passed on Chris Johnson). There are typically only a handful of playmakers like Spiller in every draft, and teams are learning the hard way that you'd better take them when you have the chance.

So IMO, there's nothing wrong with taking a RT and Spiller with our two 1st rounders. Both picks would have an impact far beyond just the 2010 season.

I think the pick that had the Titans fans scratching their head was the pick of Chris Henry with the 2nd round the previous year. He was in no way a 2nd round pick and has proven to be a terrible pick. As for CJ, I doubt many Titans fans didn't like that pick. At that time, the Titans didn't have as many glaring holes as we do now. They could afford to take BPA. They've been to the playoffs many times recently and could afford to use a late 1st rounder on a playmaker. Can we afford to use the 13th or 16/17th pick overall? PS: We haven't been to the playoffs in a while.


Here are my thoughts of drafting Spiller:

First, Let's see if Spiller runs a 4.3 as you say. Not at a school workout or anything, but at the same track as others - The combine.

Second, you already label Coffee a bust after 1 year (a handful of carries)? As if he can't improve. He's already done? I don't know the answer to this, and neither does anyone else.

Third, I don't mind drafting Spiller. But if we do, I would want to trade Gore for a 2nd or 3rd while he still has good value.

Fourth, we also have problems with our secondary, particularly keeping up with fast WR's. You tell me how many fast pro bowl caliber secondary players are drafted after the 1st round.

Fifth, If we keep Gore, I'd like to target Jahvid Best in the 2nd if possible. If he's gone, then Holliday in the 6th round.

I would argue that we really don't have as many needs as you think. Obviously our biggest need is at RT, but I can see a scenario where we use one of the 1st rounders to address that, then take Spiller with the other one. I don't think you need to trade Gore away just yet...having two strong backs isn't new in the NFL.

I never said Coffee was a bust. You just made that up. He has a different skill-set than Spiller (they're actually complimentary in many ways), but I wouldn't be confident in just having Coffee carry the load (which is actually what I said...not that he was a bust) if Gore went down. I would prefer a 3-back situation, with an eye towards the future.

There aren't many fast CBs in this draft. There's Joe Haden who will likely be gone by the time we pick, Patrick Robinson who is considered a late 1st rounder, but who only has 1 pick in the last two years, and then there's Kyle Wilson who's considered a 2nd rounder. Are you saying you want to use that second 1st rounder on Patrick Robinson?

I don't mind targeting Best if he's still in the 2nd...I already said that we don't absolutely have to draft Spiller. I'm just making the case (not just for this year, but for the future) for why it's silly for us to just think of our needs based on he 2010 season. We should be thinking about both (next year AND the future).

I agree that we can use a speed guy both on offense and defense. I'm just not so sure we HAVE to use a 1st round pick for it. I see a lot of speed in this year's draft. You listed a bunch of speed freaks in another thread u posted. Those guys can be had in later rounds. Players like Knox, Cribbs, Garcon have been selected in later rounds.

To be honest, my favorite player in the draft is Iupati. U can see why I rather pass on Spiller. Obviously, we need to use 1 of the picks on an RT. I want to use the other one for Iupati. I honestly think Iupati will be as good or great as Larry Allen. Did you see how he swatted Mauluga like a bug when he tried to blitz up the middle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWdvfRhTruw

Dude, I'd be totally fine if we used our two 1st rounders on Iupati and the best RT available...so long as we grabbed someone like Best in the 2nd. I just think we have to address both of those needs and not just the o-line. I know people want to focus almost exclusively on the line as the biggest culprit, but there's more going on than just bad line play.

These are my scenarios I'd be happy with:

1A Spiller (RB)
1B Iupati (G)
2 Jason Fox/Charles Brown (RT)
3. Kyle Wilson CB

or

1A Iupati (G)
1B Williams/Bulaga (RT)
2 Best (RB)
3. Kyle Wilson (CB)

PS: I think Wilson will be available in the 3rd due to his poor tackling. All this is assuming Haden is gone before pick 13. If he's there, we gotta get him.
[ Edited by kronik on Jan 5, 2010 at 3:11 PM ]
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by TX9R:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by TX9R:
I'll also add about the Titans comparison. When they drafted Chris Johnson they already had a top5 defense, a top5 Oline and what they beleived was a franchise QB. All they needed was a playmaker, they were roasted for not taking a WR, but they knew there wasn't a quality one available at their pick, so they took he best playmaker on their board. Now compare that to our situation and tell how it's at all similar.

Hmmm, you don't think we can use a playmaker on offense, especially with blazing speed out of the backfield??? If you don't think we need that, we must be watching two different teams, because with the exception of Vernon, this whole offense is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Sure, anyopne could use some speed. But it's pretty useless when you can't block and your defense can't get off the field on 3rd down, also you're QB is a question mark. My main point is that the Tennesee comparison is not a valid one.
As far as playmakers we have a pro bowl RB, a pro bowl TE, and what appears to be a future pro bowl WR. Our needs are what they've been for a decade, Oline and pass rusher and we have a chance to finally address both in one of the most proising draft classes in years and 2 top 16 picks to do so. This offense may be lacking in speed, but show me the player on the Colts who has just blazing speed. Now look at the flip where the Raiders have speed to burn all over, but can't block or rush the passer. A team with great blocking and pass rush doesn't need Al Davis speed to win. The Pats won 3 SB with less speed than we have.

I agree that we need a new QB, but that's not going to happen anytime soon (at least not this off-season, unfortunately). Joseph Addai ran a 4.37 at the combine (faster than any RB we have), Anthony Gonzalez ran a 4.40 and Pierre Garcon ran a 4.48 (10th best at his combine for Wrs). The Colts have plenty of speed...but more importantly, they have Peyton Manning. We don't, so we need to generate offensive production in different ways.

I'm all for using one of the 1st rounders on a RT...we agree on this. I disagree though that pass rush is high on the list of needs. You might think ranking 3rd in the NFL in sacks isn't a big deal, but I think it shows how far this team has come along in that area, and we're likely to get even better as Brooks/Haralson/Lawson continue to mature. We can use a 3rd-5th rounder for OLB depth, but I'm not convinced that it's absolutely imperative that we draft an OLB early.

The Raiders draft speed without much consideration for the actual football skills. I'm not talking about that. Spiller is a football player, and playmaker and not simply some fast dude.

As for the Pats, again, they have Tom Brady (who, btw, has only one 1st rounder protecting him....Logan Mankins) and we don't. Until we get our Peyton Manning (who has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him) or Tom Brady, or Drew Brees (who currently has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him), or Phillip Rivers (who has ZERO 1st rounders protecting him) or Kurt Warner (who only has one 1st rounder protecting him), we'll have to figure out other ways to move the ball and score points.

I agree with your points, but as far as the guys protecting those QBs, they also have creative, innovative guys calling the plays for them, along with great QBs. We just don't, and haven't in years. I guess I just have my doubts that we could actually use all this needed speed correctly. Whereas a dominant Oline doesn't need to be all that creative. Look at the Jets, crappy QB, decent, but not great backs, inconsistent WR, but great line and creative defense. They're in the playoffs. Now they could add one guy and really turn a corner because they have the foundation. I just don't think we do. We've tried to address the Oline in later rounds and lo and behold the only really good lineman we have came in the first. We need guys who are as close to sure things up front as we can get and the first is the best place to do that. What if we do have a great playmaker at RB, and by the time the line catches up he isn't what he was (Frank Gore?) We went that route.

But I'm not saying we should address the o-line only in later rounds. I keep saying, let's go ahead and use one of those 1st rounders on a RT, and maybe even a 2nd rounder on a top guard while we grab a playmaker like Spiller with the second 1st rounder (if he's still there). Or, let's even use both 1st rounders on the o-line, just so long as we address the speed issue with the 2nd round pick (maybe Best).

I keep saying, it doesn't have to be Spiller (though I'd rather go with him), it can be Best or someone like Jacoby Ford in the 2nd/3rd. We just need to recognize that our lack of speed on offense is a huge issue in today's NFL.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by GORO:
I watched highlights on Spiller on youtube, and he reminds me of Reggie Bush. With that said this could be good to help make this conservative offense more productive. The question is whether Gore would be willing to share the load.

Seeing how we're not a running team. In fact 3rd least in the league. So by sharing the load you mean what 12 carries for Gore and 8 for Spiller. 14/6


Yea that seems worth it.

Something tells me that if we actually became more successful at running the ball (like, not just 1 yard up the gut and a cloud of dust 70% of the time), we might do it more often. Just a hunch based on what Singletary has been saying since day one.

So for me, it's a combination of addressing the o-line AND getting a back with home-run ability. Not just either/or.

You are probably right. But again, the RB's wasn't the reason we couldn't run 70% of the time. Even Coffee said Raye didn't allow him to cutback or go outside. Or something to that effect. So why would that change for Spiller.

So again, we would be drafting Spiller in hopes to become something we aren't.

I highly doubt they'd tell someone with Spiller's speed "don't take it outside." Coffee is an inside runner and doesn't have the speed to be effective when he bounces it outside...he's just not going to beat to many NFL defenders to the edge, so I can see why Raye would tell him that. He should be a 1-cut RB...Spiller or even Jahvid Best are totally different beasts.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,046
I'd rather address the Rb situation in the 2nd round with Best. Then in the first Davis/Williams/Bulaga with the first pick then Iupati with the second. That would be a lovely first two rounds.
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